No. I have a GMC AT4 1500 W/3.0.

Gotcha

You've been pleased though?

I've driven a Colorado with one

aggieforester05 said:

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I think I'm done with new and even lightly used vehicles going forward. The prices have gotten way out of hand, they're just not worth what they're asking.

Additionally they're getting rid of the stuff I like, like V8 cars.

The complexity is also a problem. I think very few vehicles made today will still be running in 20-30 years thanks to electronics that will be obsolete and long out of production.

Buying older vehicles and then building them to be what you want is looking more attractive.

---

Yes, prices have gotten out of hand, no argument there. But the federally mandated safety features and general consumer trends keep inching up prices. A fully loaded F-150 in 2004 was whatever it was, and now, it seems like a 2024 is pushing almost $100 grand. People will spend insane amounts on high-margin trucks. Though, a fully loaded 2004 F-150... it was nice, but had far fewer creature comforts than what the top end trucks have today in 2024.

In terms of V8 cars, you can generally get more performance out of less than you could a decade or two ago. Engine technology is a marvel. If you want a V8 to say you have a V8, yes that is getting more challenging. But, "I've always bought a V8.... " just buy a used V8 then.

Your 20-30 year old line is laughable, because cars are lasting longer than they ever have. COVID and the shutdown has still rippled the industry. Though, right before COVID, used car sales had been hitting all time-highs. I want to say north of 41 million used cars were in 2019. Granted, used car data gets Bidenomic screwy, because we can take the same car, pass it to every poster in this thread, and that could be a dozen used car sales right there.

I'll meet you half-way at 25 years... Almost every car you buy today, you can generally get 100k-200k miles out of it relatively trouble-free with regular maintenance. Sure, Land Rover and some models are going to be a challenge... the automakers know the problem children, but go buy a Sub, Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Chevy, GM, or Ford, and almost all of their models can reasonably do it. I don't think you can say that about "simple" and more "electronic-free' cars from 1999/2000. When people say that cars were built better decades ago... I honestly have no idea where that's coming from, because it's an absolute farce. I think it's nostalgia.

It seems like you prefer to buy used. There's nothing wrong with that. I would be surprised if your car is older than 2004 and not a obscure classic. I say that, because if we went to A&M right now and drove down the student lots, I'd surmise that the overwhelming majority of cars are going to be newer than 2004 despite you likely being reasonably professionally successful and said students being the "poor student" trope.

Hawk2007 said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

---

I think I'm done with new and even lightly used vehicles going forward. The prices have gotten way out of hand, they're just not worth what they're asking.

Additionally they're getting rid of the stuff I like, like V8 cars.

The complexity is also a problem. I think very few vehicles made today will still be running in 20-30 years thanks to electronics that will be obsolete and long out of production.

Buying older vehicles and then building them to be what you want is looking more attractive.

---

Yes, prices have gotten out of hand, no argument there. But the federally mandated safety features and general consumer trends keep inching up prices. A fully loaded F-150 in 2004 was whatever it was, and now, it seems like a 2024 is pushing almost $100 grand. People will spend insane amounts on high-margin trucks. Though, a fully loaded 2004 F-150... it was nice, but had far fewer creature comforts than what the top end trucks have today in 2024.

In terms of V8 cars, you can generally get more performance out of less than you could a decade or two ago. Engine technology is a marvel. If you want a V8 to say you have a V8, yes that is getting more challenging. But, "I've always bought a V8.... " just buy a used V8 then.

Your 20-30 year old line is laughable, because cars are lasting longer than they ever have. COVID and the shutdown has still rippled the industry. Though, right before COVID, used car sales had been hitting all time-highs. I want to say north of 41 million used cars were in 2019. Granted, used car data gets Bidenomic screwy, because we can take the same car, pass it to every poster in this thread, and that could be a dozen used car sales right there.

I'll meet you half-way at 25 years... Almost every car you buy today, you can generally get 100k-200k miles out of it relatively trouble-free with regular maintenance. Sure, Land Rover and some models are going to be a challenge... the automakers know the problem children, but go buy a Sub, Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Chevy, GM, or Ford, and almost all of their models can reasonably do it. I don't think you can say that about "simple" and more "electronic-free' cars from 1999/2000. When people say that cars were built better decades ago... I honestly have no idea where that's coming from, because it's an absolute farce. I think it's nostalgia.

It seems like you prefer to buy used. There's nothing wrong with that. I would be surprised if your car is older than 2004 and not a obscure classic. I say that, because if we went to A&M right now and drove down the student lots, I'd surmise that the overwhelming majority of cars are going to be newer than 2004 despite you likely being reasonably professionally successful and said students being the "poor student" trope.

---

The point about the "25 years from now" is in regards to electronic component failure

For instance, if you have a washer or dryer bought since 2005, after about 5 years the manufacturer quits supplying parts and you have to turn to the salvage market for replacement boards and other parts.

It's those things that are likely to fail and could be hard to replace. Like door switches and your heated and mechanical seats.

Why haven't we settled on like 2 or 3 versions of window regulators at this point?

The more they procude a model with certain parts for only 5 years plus the increase in electronics in those parts, I could see the failures becoming harder to solve


One annoying thing is car functions like ac being tied to the head unit, that's a disaster in the making.

I've looked it up and have had it explained to me, but my mind still refuses to understand/accept how car dealers became a thing AND has had such staying power. It's frankly, unAmerican to me.

pacecar02 said:

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Gotcha

You've been pleased though?

I've driven a Colorado with one

---

I have. My only complaint about my last one was how easy it was to steal! I'd had an almost identical '21 prior to this.

I do feel the cab is roomier in the '24 though. I'm not sure if the cab size increased with the '23+ facelift or it's because the bulky dash is gone since it was replaced with screens.

1626 said:

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Counterpoint said:

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Does anyone have a favorite Honda dealership within 100 miles of BCS? (Good prices, no add ones, no BS, etc)

---

Round Rock Honda was ok 4 years ago, Penske dealership. No idea if they are bad now after COVID, etc.

---

Toyota of Round Rock was the worst ever back in the day. I think its under new management but not sure. I knew the car I wanted and the price. I also knew what my trade was worth and I researched the local market and told the Sales Rep so. I was nice but politely warned him not to insult my intelligence and he could make a sale if he was reasonable.

The rep was great and really wanted a deal to work. Takes a reasonable offer to the "Finance guy" that goes on and insults my intelligence with an absurd "offer". I raised my voice a tad and said with a *hit eating grin, "You are offering me XXXX dollars for a 20** Honda Accord with XXXX,XX miles. Wow that's only XXXX.XX below market and blue book values !!!. I repeated this about 4 times as I was asked to "keep it down". Dude turned ruby red.

I got up and grinned despite both the sales rep and I wanting to punch the guy. I just said "Folks watch those trade-ins. This place is trolling for idiots." as I left the lobby.

To this day I buy only high quality used cars from high-end dealers such as Lexus, Acura, BMW, etc. Note, these dealer often have mid-level cars and trucks on their lots. My experience is they will not treat you like an idiot given they know most of their clientele has researched all the numbers. Last several purchases have been hassle free. Including one that was an honest, "Sorry Sir, I can sell it for more than you are offering" Which was ok as he was honest upfront. No way ill go into the typical Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc dealer. Nothing but stupid games.

bobbranco said:

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Dan Scott said:

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I began the car shopping grind this week. Dealers are desperate. More than anybody I remember American car companies selling way above MSRP with bullcrap dealer additions to help justify. The biggest POS was Jeep dealers.

If you're in the market for a new car, you can get an overpriced Jeep discounted bigly now. Especially a 2023 Jeep Gladiator they were begging me to take it off their lot. Grand Cherokee MSRP has been marked down. They're realizing nobody pays BMW prices for a effing Jeep especially at 8% for new car loan plus 20% increase to insurance. Lincoln is another big one. I'll pick On foreign too. Toyota sells wells but not the Tundra.

F them. They took short term profits and burned people and any goodwill.

---

Never buy a Jeep. They have been overrated and overpriced since forever.

Ford Motor Co have lost their minds with their inflated pricing. They lost my business.

And Toyota dealers are scumbags in my experience.

---

Toyota dealers are the worst! When you agree on a price with salesman and meet with finance guy, make damn sure what you and salesman agreed upon is what is on the bottom line of the contract. I caught them trying to add an extra warranty that didn't cover crap and an expensive term life policy to cover payoff which the premium was outrageous. Then the guy started to argue with me. Screw em!

Irish 2.0 said:

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Just got a 2024 GMC AT4 3.0 Diesel for $7500 off MSRP and 1.9% for 72 months…maybe you're not shopping right on the loan.

---

I have a 2022 3.0 Duramax in my Silverado and love it. What did you pay? Looks like I bought in June 2022 at $3200 over msrp (they made me pay for a "pro package" dealer markup). Was $66.5k before ttl. I was not happy about any of it.

Think it was $65.5~66. Somewhere in there.

Got 1.9% on 72months

Not Coach Jimbo said:

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Jeep also generally has terrible reliability compared to competitors

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I've had three Jeep Wranglers. Two door, 4 door and Gladiator. Never had a single problem with any of them. Not once.
That said, I'm not in the market for a vehicle now. If I was, the discounts on Gladiators are their own damn fault and I would take them to the cleaners if I was.

I've thought about getting a Ford Transit Connect van.

Not because I need to haul much, but because those are the easiest vehicles I've ever encountered to get in and out of comfortably.

Irish 2.0 said:

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True. The last one was stolen and recovered. Now the keys stay in a faraday pouch and box.

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Mine wasn't recovered but using faraday now.

Logos Stick said:

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I wish we could eliminate dealerships.

It's nothing but an unnecessary middle man.

I've never had a good experience with any of them and that includes service.

---

We've had this discussion before. What replaces dealers would actually be worse.

Let's say there are no dealers. Toyota (for example) sells direct. They have a storefront in Dallas. Its still called Toyota of Dallas, but it is now directly owned by Toyota Motor Company (or whatever the corporate name is). Is it actually directly "owned" by TMC? Not really. It is a separate entity that is owned. If something happens on that sales lot or in the service bay, TMC needs the simplest of liability protection -- the corporate veil. (They also have insurance, but I digress).

So now you have TOD, a separate entity owned by TMC in the new marketplace vs. TOD, a separate entity owned by Joe Blow, who has a dealership contract with TMC in the old marketplace. What is the difference? Is the new TOD going to stop selling at retail? No. Are their salesman going to suddenly stop doing the same things salesmen have been doing for decades? No. Is the service department going to change? No. In fact, it will probably raise their rates.

You call it an "unnecessary middle man" but that's naive and totally ignores the idea that TMC is going to try to make a profit in any investment venture they undertake, whether it is building a new plant to make vehicles or buying property to sell them. They aren't going to stop utilizing their storefronts (formerly called dealerships) to obtain profits just because they've switched to a different model of selling cars. If they don't make a profit at TOD, they'd shut it down. Now, you have to go somewhere else that's not as convenient or operates the same way the old dealership model does.

If anything, it would be worse because they'd want people like you to THINK it is a better system and come into their store way more relaxed. The result: you pay far more and get worse service without even realizing it.

Can you give me an example of an issue that would be better solved by a storefront/OEM owned model vs. the dealership model?

I'm not saying dealers are perfect; in fact many are bad and some are reprehensible. But here is an example of where the dealership model can be better than the storefront model: you have a problem that they can't fix and they, along with other dealers, report the problem to the OEM. The OEM doesn't want to identify the issue at first as a real problem, but later, because of the numbers, it is forced to. The dealer doesn't want to lose a customer to another brand and "forces" the OEM to take action.

That wouldn't happen under the storefront model. The OEM would tell the customer to jump in the lake.

Dan Scott said:

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I began the car shopping grind this week. Dealers are desperate. More than anybody I remember American car companies selling way above MSRP with bullcrap dealer additions to help justify. The biggest POS was Jeep dealers.

If you're in the market for a new car, you can get an overpriced Jeep discounted bigly now. Especially a 2023 Jeep Gladiator they were begging me to take it off their lot. Grand Cherokee MSRP has been marked down. They're realizing nobody pays BMW prices for a effing Jeep especially at 8% for new car loan plus 20% increase to insurance. Lincoln is another big one. I'll pick On foreign too. Toyota sells wells but not the Tundra.

F them. They took short term profits and burned people and any goodwill.

---

When you take a bulletproof I-Force V8 out of a half ton lineup that does not have a 3/4 ton to sell, but people want a TOYOTA, this is what you get.

Turbo/Hybrids are not the Toyota model that earned them their name as a LONG term, basic maintenance truck product.

I expect the same overstock issue with the Tacoma as well. Most folks that wanted a Tacoma in the last year or so bought them up because of the 4 cylinder turbo/hybrid issue coming down the pipe in '24. There was a conversation in a parking lot I was part of that had several new Tacoma owners that short cycled their buying schedule to avoid the new engine lineup in Tacomas.

I hope Toyota chokes on the lot overload, realizes their mistake and corrects it. It's the only way they go back.

Charpie said:

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I can't help but laugh at this thread. A bunch of dudes whining about how they get jerked around at dealerships. Welcome to what it's like to be a woman. God this thread gives me the giggles because some of y'all act tough but can't haggle with a little ole sales guy?

Here is some advice from a woman who has worked in automotive software and where these sales guys and finance guys have been my customers.

1. Always be prepared to walk out. They need you more than you need them.
2. Buy a car on around a holiday, towards the end of the month or late in the day. These guys have quotas and can literally pull rabbits out of their hats to get deals done.
3. If you are local to BCS, do not buy a car here. They are charging 3 or 4K over sticker for processing fees. Bull***** Go buy a car in Houston. It's not worth it.
4. As a recent Lexus purchaser who was also told about all the of cara being presold already, it's actually true. How are they handling test drives? Lexus has provided their dealerships with demo cars so you can drive those. It's a win for Lexus because they can create demand and a win for the dealership because they don't have to have a ton of staff to be on the lot trying to sell cars. HOWEVER, these presold deals fall through all the time. I called my car guy on a Monday telling him exactly what I wanted in my RX350h. He found it at Sewell in Dallas on Wednesday. Someone had prepaid a $500 deposit for the car, it was ordered and then they changed their mind. So I got it.
5. Try to come in with your own financing. That rattles them. They make money off of the loans they are able to get. And sometimes they may not give you the best terms because it's not in their own best interest. If you come in with your own financing, they know you mean business and won't mess around. Again, they need you more than you need them.
6. Never buy a Dodge, Chrysler, Ram or Jeep. From a service side, they are nightmares and out of the big 3, they are still suffering from supply chain issues.

---

Lots of truth here. I bought my last car Dec. 31, 2019. I knew what I wanted and had looked at a few dealerships, getting the same price from all. I was on my way to Florida for vacation when we passed a dealership. I joked to my wife that we should stop. She said, "Let's do it." I told the salesman what I wanted and he asked what he could do to make the sale. I told him to give me the best deal he could to start with because I knew what I wanted, knew what they were selling for and I was on my way to Destin and was not going to waste time on the typical sales techniques. He said he had what I wanted on the lot if he could show it to me. I said sure. After looking at it, he asked again what he could do to make me leave with the car. I told him to give me the best price. He went to talk to his manager and came back with the best price I had heard. I told him I thought he could do better, if not I was headed to my vacation. He did. I got the car for $5000 less than the best offer I had from other dealers.

If a dealership tries to charge you more than about $250 in closing fees, you should walk. It is not a reputable dealership.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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Buying cars is one of the weirdest American purchases behind health care. We buy very few things the way we buy cars.

---

Is this a uniquely American annoyance like having to tip at restaurants? Anybody here ever live in another country and buy a car there? If so, how was the experience?

slaughtr said:

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Not Coach Jimbo said:

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Jeep also generally has terrible reliability compared to competitors

---

I've had three Jeep Wranglers. Two door, 4 door and Gladiator. Never had a single problem with any of them. Not once.
That said, I'm not in the market for a vehicle now. If I was, the discounts on Gladiators are their own damn fault and I would take them to the cleaners if I was.

---

I've had 5 Jeeps and have had major problems with all of them but, I don't really lose any sleep over it.

• 1985 CJ-7 - had to replace the engine when it was about 13 years old (bought used from a t.u. student so who knows)
• 1994 Grand Cherokee (bought new) - had to replace the transmission when it was about 10 years old (about 180,000 miles)
• 2001 Grand Cherokee RHD (bought second hand from some dodgy Wog on Parramatta Road) - massive problem with the aluminum water intake, overheating in stop and go traffic and later had to have the thing repainted because of the clearcoat flaking off over the dark blue paint.
• 2012 Compass RHD (bought new) - replaced clutch and needed to replace the gearbox within the first 70,000 miles. Ultimately sold the vehicle for $500 as scrap when it was going to cost me $12,000 AUD to repair a vehicle that was only worth about $5,000 AUD.
• 2020 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon (bought new) - replaced under warranty - Transfer Case, Rear Axle and Rear Window glass - apparently there's no way to just replace the crappy solder on the rear window defroster. Later had some mystery transmission problem that required some hard to source part. And after off-roading at Big Bend, one of the bolts in the suspension just fell out. Due to "supply chain" issues my Jeep spent over 4 months at the Dealer during the first 4 years of ownership.

I'd like to say that Jeeps are great with just regular maintenance but, that wouldn't be honest - in my experience.

If you must do business with a dealership, make it a Sewell dealership.I always recommend buying used from an individual but if you're hell bent on buying from a dealer, Sewell is the best.

cheeky said:

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Have a deposit on a Lexus GX 550 going on 6 months now and don't even know the "price." Any word on that?

---

Sounds like you're a sucker

Sq 17 said:

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Logos Stick said:

---

I wish we could eliminate dealerships.

It's nothing but an unnecessary middle man.

I've never had a good experience with any of them and that includes service.

---

20 years ago I got a new suburban at Lawrence Marshall and that was the last time I enjoyed the dealership experience

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RIP Clobber Line

Irish 2.0 said:

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Sharpshooter said:

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TRX said:

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atmtws said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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Just got a 2024 GMC AT4 3.0 Diesel for $7500 off MSRP and 1.9% for 72 months…maybe you're not shopping right on the loan.

---

Thats because they're #1 target in car thefts.

---

Also not a V8.

---

Bring back the muscle car, please.

---

Better for hauling and I'm getting ~25mpg on the highway as long as I'm not hammering it. The 3.0 really is a great engine if you've never been in one.

---

I've never been IN an engine.

WestTexAg12 said:

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bobbranco said:

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Dan Scott said:

---

I began the car shopping grind this week. Dealers are desperate. More than anybody I remember American car companies selling way above MSRP with bullcrap dealer additions to help justify. The biggest POS was Jeep dealers.

If you're in the market for a new car, you can get an overpriced Jeep discounted bigly now. Especially a 2023 Jeep Gladiator they were begging me to take it off their lot. Grand Cherokee MSRP has been marked down. They're realizing nobody pays BMW prices for a effing Jeep especially at 8% for new car loan plus 20% increase to insurance. Lincoln is another big one. I'll pick On foreign too. Toyota sells wells but not the Tundra.

F them. They took short term profits and burned people and any goodwill.

---

Never buy a Jeep. They have been overrated and overpriced since forever.

Ford Motor Co have lost their minds with their inflated pricing. They lost my business.

And Toyota dealers are scumbags in my experience.

---

I tried telling my wife this but she insisted on buying a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Still have problems with it. Feels boxy, tight knee space. Hate it.

---

I loved my 2020 Grand Cherokee … until the transmission went out at about 45k miles. At least they paid for the new one.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

---

Buying cars is one of the weirdest American purchases behind health care. We buy very few things the way we buy cars.

---

Is this a uniquely American annoyance like having to tip at restaurants? Anybody here ever live in another country and buy a car there? If so, how was the experience?

---

Bought 2 cars in Australia and it was a disaster mate

First of all, private owner car leases are "illegal".
It is possible for you to have a leased vehicle using a program they call a "Novated Lease" but it is through your employer. So technically, your employer "owns" the car. So, if you change jobs, you lose the car.

In Australia, anybody in a senior position, or a customer facing field role gets a car allowance which is typically $15,000/yr and remains untaxed as long as you drive at least 6,000 km per year for work. If you drive less than 6,000 km, the pro-rated balance is treated as income and taxed accordingly (I was in a 48% bracket at one point).

The thing with the car allowance is that you can use that for your "Novated Lease" so, the $15,000/yr just disappears from your pay and goes straight to the dealer and you have the car with the typical kind of "mileage" restrictions you'd see in an American personal lease.

When I first arrived fresh of the boat (Qantas 747) in late 2007, I came to learn that if you're on a work visa, you can only borrow for a term that is equal to or less than the length of the work visa. I had a 4 year renewable work visa so the longest loan I could get was 48 months. No 84 month US crazy term loan available. Later after I had my Permanent Residency, the longest term I could get was 60 months.

So, 2007, I bought a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee from a dodgy Maltese guy in Sydney's Inner West. The crazy thing for me was getting the loan funded and transacted. This process took 3 days. That's right 3 days. No such thing as driving off the lot in your "new" car.

Now to get the thing registered, you have to have two different kinds of insurance.
1 - What is effectively Liability Insurance (CTP Green Slip) which is a fixed price and paid via a private insurer to the state of New South Wales
2 - Comprehensive Cover which is your standard type of insurance that is going to be required for your loan.

In order to get setup with an account with the State of New South Wales DMV (I can't remember right now what it was called), you have to have 100 points of Identification and have somebody give a personal reference and vouch for you. Luckily, the office was two blocks from where I worked and one of my colleagues was a True Blue Aussie and went down there with me over lunch to help me get my account set up.

Then of course you have to get a "Rego Check" (vehicle inspection) and pay the annual vehicle registration fee (Rego).

After all that, you just have to do the annual CTP Greenslip, Rego Check and Rego - usually about $1000/yr for all of that. Comprehensive Insurance was probably $100/mo or so (from memory).

In 2012, I bought a new 2012 Jeep Compass as my second vehicle from some dodgy Russian guy in Parramatta. This time, I knew about the 3 day waiting period before I could come back and pick up my new vehicle. The Jeep dealer took care of the rego check and registration paperwork so when I picked it up, the license plates were already on the vehicle.

One funny thing about buying an American vehicle in Australia in 2012 was that during this time, the US Dollar was kind of weak so the Jeeps were cheaper than comparable Australian built vehicles from Ford or Holden.

Now due to closed market manipulation, cost of imports, etc., I paid about $28,000 for a vehicle that was available in the USA for $18,000.

Anyway, in my experience, the car buying process in the USA is much better than the car buying process in Australia.

Dan Scott said:

---

I began the car shopping grind this week. Dealers are desperate. More than anybody I remember American car companies selling way above MSRP with bullcrap dealer additions to help justify. The biggest POS was Jeep dealers.

If you're in the market for a new car, you can get an overpriced Jeep discounted bigly now. Especially a 2023 Jeep Gladiator they were begging me to take it off their lot. Grand Cherokee MSRP has been marked down. They're realizing nobody pays BMW prices for a effing Jeep especially at 8% for new car loan plus 20% increase to insurance. Lincoln is another big one. I'll pick On foreign too. Toyota sells wells but not the Tundra.

F them. They took short term profits and burned people and any goodwill.

---

Last weekend before the Eclipse, I was out in Dripping Springs at 12 Fox Brewery for an off road event that was Bronco oriented.

The local Jeep Dealer brought a 2023 Willys Jeep Gladiator in Orange with $12,000 worth of lift kit, bigger shocks and tires and dealer mark-up. So before sales tax, they were asking $73,000 for this rig that was last year's model.

The sales rep left two business cards on my 2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Since the Gladiator was Orange, I guess he must have missed the Aggie Band and Corps of Cadets stickers on the rear window of my Jeep.

The funniest part about all the dealer added on upgrades was the fact that the Gladiator still had the factory plastic bumper. I think they would have gotten a lot more bang for their buck by adding a steel bumper and a winch.

Hawk2007 said:

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Stinky T said:

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My wife wanted to look at a Lexus NX hybrid. The website showed that the local dealer had 6 on the lot - so we went down there. The salesman walks up and tells me they don't have any on the lot and they probably won't for a while. The next 22 that arrive are already sold.

So I ask about the new GX550 and he tells me the next 46 that arrive are sold. I comment that it is hard to believe that many people buy a vehicle without even sitting in one first. He just shrugs at me with a smart ass grin on his face. Then I comment that if I owned that dealership I would lay off 99% of the sales people since the cars are selling themselves. His smart ass grin disappears.

Put me in the category that doesn't see any benefit of car dealers. It is a good thing they are protected by state laws or they already would have gone the way of the dinosaurs.

---

What other car companies are you entertaining besides Lexus/Toyota? If the answer is none, you can look in the mirror as to who the problem is.

Toyota is killing it with the 6th generation 4Runner, the GX, the LX and Land Cruiser. The product does sell itself.

The NX and GX are very different vehicles so your story might also be a case of ThatHappened.

---

So far we have looked at 3 other makes. The NX is something my wife is interested in, the GX is something I have an interest in, but maybe in the future - so I asked about it.

My point was that if dealerships are not going to have a model for a prospective customer to check out on the lot, and you just put down a deposit and wait for it to arrive site unseen - what is the point of a sales person other than adding cost? I could do that from my couch.

Sq 17 said:

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Logos Stick said:

---

I wish we could eliminate dealerships.

It's nothing but an unnecessary middle man.

I've never had a good experience with any of them and that includes service.

---

20 years ago I got a new suburban at Lawrence Marshall and that was the last time I enjoyed the dealership experience

---

Bought the same thing at the same place the same year. Still have it, in fact. That 2004 Suburban is about as reliable as it gets.

I'm generally A cheapskate and a value buyer. I'll buy something reliable and drive it until it rusts apart as long as the maintenance and repair costs don't exceed the cost of purchasing something new or newer and it remains reliable.

You do run into problems if you buy certain models where parts stop being made for repairs, though often if the manufacturer sold the line for a long time and overseas, third party parts can be found for a long time for most common items.

Some people view a car as an experience, or an expression, or a hobby, or a tool. I'm mostly the latter, but do get into the hobby aspect also. Mostly a car is a depreciating capital item that transports people and materials for me. If it meets that requirement reliably with a low relative cost, I am happy to drive just about anything.

I do generally despise the new car buying experience. I have only bought 3 new, and all the three times I managed to find or get recommended to a straight shooting dealer that found what I wanted at an acceptable cost, offered but did not press any add on BS, and had financing ready that was better than what I went in with. They made a profit, and I still got what I wanted at a reasonable cost to me, and the process was fast, a couple of hours and done, minus of course a bit of up front communication time.

Once we get out of that efficient and mutually beneficial arrangement, I am out. I'd rather go haggle with some Joe Sixpack over a used car for cash.

I have a 2009 Jeep Commander that is getting handed out to my oldest. It has 250k miles and I have not had any major issues with it. Only jeep I've owned. Has the 5.7l hemi which has also been a good engine in my case.

I did get it when they were handing out lifetime powertrain warranties. Which they got out of because I failed to read the fine print and perform annual inspections at the dealer starting in about 2015.