JodyMcD96 said:
We dealt with hazing when I was in, people were removed from the Corps and sometimes the University. That's what is supposed to be done, not destroy the system that has given us great leaders of state and nation.
Again, were you in the Corps? Did you have a bad experience? You're completely focused on hazing in this discussion, which has so far not been a part of the discussion beyond a few tangents. I've red General Michaelis's letter and I did not see hazing called out. If it was I missed it. It seems odd to focus so vehemently on something that isn't a major point of the discussion unless you, or a loved one, was directly and negatively affected by it.
Major Corps Changes - Political BS
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Last: 8 mo ago by Tex100
Stockholm syndrome is not that rare after all.
Sorry you couldn't hack it.
My question is this: Under this proposed system, what the heck are all the non-cadre upperclassmen going to be doing during the fall semester while the entire fish class is elsewhere playing hivemind? Virtually all of the Corp's day to day activities revolve around fish. They are literally the reason the Corps exists. Post freshmen year, meaningful interaction with the new fish made the rest of the experience worth it. Taking half of that time away for ~80% of the upperclassmen seems counterproductive to me.
aggie93 said:Hazing has been going on as long as there has been a Corps and they have always dealt with it and addressed it. It has also always been used by people who have agendas to change the Corps as a reason to do things that have nothing to do with hazing. It was that way when I was in school and when my Dad was in school.bobbranco said:
I think the CoC is a great organization and as with anything that involves humans you will have problems. I want the best for the CoC because it is the poster child for Texas A&M.
Hazing incidents have caused outside intervention. A&M, the academies, the armed forces will and continue to haze. It's a given that hazing occurs but leaving it up to a bunch of untrained, immature college kids to devise new tactics or continue failed tactics is a recipe for disaster. If there was some level of supervision or maturity the hazing would not have happened as noted in the report in the Houston Chronicle. Hope it all works out for you guys because without proper leadership you will kill the CoC.
The level of hazing is alot less than it was 30 years ago. I remember we had 1 day when it was fair game on pissheads. It was WWE in the hallway and we absolutely destroyed some of them. I also remember something called a water crap out. You drank until you puked. The level of PT they did back then was probably multiples more intense than it is now. Axe handles were everywhere especially around bonfire. I barely recognize the corps today compared to what I went through.
It is. Next smarmy comment you can keep to yourself.fc2112 said:
TIL Corps of Cadet alumni believe their program is superior in preparing US military officers than that used by the United States service academies.
Duly noted.
aggie93 said:We kidnapped our CO. It was great bull. He came back and put us on a List and we had a brutal week of PT and stress and so much BS we had to endure. I remember seeing our CO come out in the hallway wearing a fish uniform that we left him and it was impeccable as he crapped us out. Both sides learned a lot that week as he took over all discipline and we gained respect for each other. Our buddies got closer and bonded together as we supported each other through a lot of stuff that would definitely be hazing. Just hours of PT.bobbranco said:You are absolutely incorrect.aggiez03 said:So you actually think the Corps upper classman are teaching the fish and sophomores to remove their clothes put on a condom and rub up and down on their buddies to make them uncomfortable?bobbranco said:
The 'hazing' in that Chronicle article was amongst Sophomores? Right? Leaders, right? How many times has this occurred in the past?
How these idiots made it to year 2 is beyond me. This hazing, that I would classify as a sexual assault, is probably learned behavior. Some of those guys should be jailed and put on a sex offender registry. Totally inexcusable and upperclassmen heads should roll, not necessarily dismissal for the upperclassmen but demotion, in addition to dismissing the participating sophomores.
I would say it has probably happened a total of 1 time, like the time this happened.
Don't you think if this was something that was taught by upper classmen, that it would have come out more than 1 time?
This is not something that is taught in the Corps. Are you okay mentally?
Once again, when I called this out a pushing an agenda, I was obviously correct.
When did the tradition of kidnapping CO's stop? How did fish learn about that complete waste of time? It's definitely learned behavior. Same as my children's high school shenanigans.
I have no agenda other than seeing the CoC improve and glad that A&M CoC exists. The CoC needs to do better. Maybe the bulls should be given a larger role of supervision and training of the outfits to avoid continuing embarrassing hazing.
At the end of the week he took us all on a long run and went until only one of us was left and able to keep up with him. We showed each other we could take what the other could give and we cheered on our last buddy to the end. Then he took us over to Sully and spoke to us about how he respected how we hung together and dropped handles with us. We were blown away.
Yeah, total "waste of time" and "high school shenanigans". I'll never forget that week as being one of the most difficult and also most rewarding of my life. I learned a hell of a lot about myself and truly bonded with my buddies while hoping I could be half the leader that our CO was someday.
Thanks for this. Similar experience without the kidnapping happened for me many times my freshman year.
From what I have seen, the service academies constantly have problems and they need improvement. Humans fail. Learn from the failures and improve.fc2112 said:
TIL Corps of Cadet alumni believe their program is superior in preparing US military officers than that used by the United States service academies.
Duly noted.
Hazing the heads. Duh.coconutED said:
My question is this: Under this proposed system, what the heck are all the non-cadre upperclassmen going to be doing during the fall semester while the entire fish class is elsewhere playing hivemind? Virtually all of the Corp's day to day activities revolve around fish. They are literally the reason the Corps exists. Post freshmen year, meaningful interaction with the new fish made the rest of the experience worth it. Taking half of that time away for ~80% of the upperclassmen seems counterproductive to me.
Being a pisshead is going to suck more than it ever has! Sometimes being a pisshead was worse than being a fish. As a fish you could be clueless. Not when you're a pisshead. Some of our worst crapouts came as sophomores because we weren't training the fish properly.
One of my pissheads is on this thread. I'll bet he would say the same thing.
One of my pissheads is on this thread. I'll bet he would say the same thing.
Double Talkin' Jive...
My crapout for sergebutt privileges was while I was waiting to enter the hospital for heart surgery.
I was exempt from going but chose to go anyway.
I was exempt from going but chose to go anyway.
The Zips lead the Corps, the Butts run the Corps, the Pissheads train the Corps, and the fish are the Corps.
In the spring, I remember in 2009 Corps brass was simulated hell.
A constant state of soreness from pushups and running for a whole month. Not much sleep. Ridiculous workload of memorization, attention to detail and quick thinking. You were set up to fail... for weeks.
At the end you get your brass after waking up early and going on a long arduous run (13 or so miles) in our case it was cold rain the Monday before we played texas. As the sun came up we did pushups in the fountain and got our brass after that. I remember all the upperclassmen (not the heads) congratulating us. We got to walk back to our dorms and eat at duncan later with the seniors and chilled out for a brief moment that morning. It was a real sense of accomplishment and with it being all over all of us buddies just laughed and shared stories about what just happened the past few weeks.
Two years later my brother joined the outfit and I watched him and his buddies do the same thing. I saw during how broken and stressed he was and how miserable it made him while he was doing it with no end in sight. Once we had the air out for him and his buddies and they made it, doing their pushups in the same fountain and getting their brass, I had to remove myself from the scene for my allergies from all the dust suddenly being unsettled by the class of '15 moving the earth. My little 14 month younger brother had such a look of accomplishment and joy at getting his brass and being done--it was like being a parent on Christmas morning.
I wont forget that they rest of my life and feel sorry for people that don't get to have that type of interaction.
The powers that be that run the place will ruin those types of experiences for new generations. This is just one more example of poor leadership that doesn't know what they have in front of them.
A constant state of soreness from pushups and running for a whole month. Not much sleep. Ridiculous workload of memorization, attention to detail and quick thinking. You were set up to fail... for weeks.
At the end you get your brass after waking up early and going on a long arduous run (13 or so miles) in our case it was cold rain the Monday before we played texas. As the sun came up we did pushups in the fountain and got our brass after that. I remember all the upperclassmen (not the heads) congratulating us. We got to walk back to our dorms and eat at duncan later with the seniors and chilled out for a brief moment that morning. It was a real sense of accomplishment and with it being all over all of us buddies just laughed and shared stories about what just happened the past few weeks.
Two years later my brother joined the outfit and I watched him and his buddies do the same thing. I saw during how broken and stressed he was and how miserable it made him while he was doing it with no end in sight. Once we had the air out for him and his buddies and they made it, doing their pushups in the same fountain and getting their brass, I had to remove myself from the scene for my allergies from all the dust suddenly being unsettled by the class of '15 moving the earth. My little 14 month younger brother had such a look of accomplishment and joy at getting his brass and being done--it was like being a parent on Christmas morning.
I wont forget that they rest of my life and feel sorry for people that don't get to have that type of interaction.
The powers that be that run the place will ruin those types of experiences for new generations. This is just one more example of poor leadership that doesn't know what they have in front of them.
It should be noted that the Service Academies are modeled closer to Active Duty where unit cohesion is something the military specifically does not want. At least not long term. They can't have overly strong subordinate units threaten the authority of the chain of command. That's why personnel are transferred every few years even when not promoted.bobbranco said:From what I have seen, the service academies constantly have problems and they need improvement. Humans fail. Learn from the failures and improve.fc2112 said:
TIL Corps of Cadet alumni believe their program is superior in preparing US military officers than that used by the United States service academies.
Duly noted.
HollywoodBQ said:This is why British Commonwealth people are terrible leaders, especially CEOs.Tom Kazansky 2012 said:
News flash: rule followers can and often make terrible leaders in the real world.
I'm including Brits, Canadians, Indians, Australians, Kiwis, etc. under this umbrella.
But they are excellent rule followers.
If you're trying to keep a company on the same course it's on, put a Commonwealth person in charge.
At my last employer, once the entire management chain consisted of a Kiwi, an Indian, a Brit, and another Brit, I knew we were toast. But, we were exceptional at being compliant with corporate policies.
Small teams are goal oriented and usually have few rules.
Large teams can be goal oriented, but they have to have a lot of policy in order to maintain structure and order. In other words, a bureaucracy.
Again, I was not in the Corps, but it seems to me they are turn this thing on its head by establishing the bureaucracy first and the goals second. I would expect this not to end well.
"This is all my fault. My apologies to everyone on this board. Clearly, I didn't crap out this commandant enough when we were in the Corps."
tree91, I heard that Michaelis was a frog into your outfit? I'm wondering if that colors his experience and thoughts on the fish year....
BQ_90 said:
this new plan puts the power in even fewer hands, IMO that has more chance of hazing occurring and easier to cover up. So I don't buy this is to address hazing
This. In my time I heard of and saw things that went on and were kept hush hush because of the potential optics, and it wasn't just by cadets on staff or in outfit leadership. Some pretty serious, some not. In the end though, it's the willingness to let so much of the small or seemingly inconsequential stuff slide that erodes integrity and empowers some to push the envelope and try to get away with bigger stuff. IMO that's a huge part of the problem.
Beyond that, the reality was that underclassmen aren't stupid or blind, and when they see a failure to hold upperclassmen and leadership accountable, they assume they can do the same things with the same results. When accountability becomes hypocritical, it loses meaning and effectiveness, and the credibility of the organization is eroded in the eyes of its members.
Discipline and accountability should be public and embraced, not hidden behind closed doors to maintain a veneer of virtue and respectability. Peers and subordinates need to see peers and leadership held accountable when they **** up so they know everyone is being held to the same standard. They also need to see them get back up and see that it isn't the end of the world and to not be afraid of accountability and admitting their own screw ups. It sucks, but it's necessary.
What about the 60% of Cadets that don't join the Military. The raison d'etre (whatever that is, i feel stupider even typing that btw) of the Corps is to produce leaders of state and nation. The majority of the Cadets go into the private sector and become leaders. Why change a formula that works?Old Army Metal said:ABATTBQ87 said:Old Army Metal said:
Outlaw 8, class of 2003.
This may be a bad thing, but you probably need to keep in perspective that the Corps' raison d'etre is training future military officers, not being a repository for all the things you think are good bull.
Will this more effectively train and prepare future 2lts and ensigns? Maybe. Maybe not. Being a fish is still going to suck, though.
All things good bull didn't hurt training and preparing those Aggies of the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, nor did it hurt my Aggie Band classmate who is currently a 4 star Marine Corps General.
Sir, with all due respect, none of that is relevant in any way here, and I suspect you just wanted to brag that you're friends with a marine corps general.
DEIELREY said:
What about the 60% of Cadets that dont join the Military. The raison d'etre (whatever that is, i feel stupider even typing that btw) of the Corps is to produce leaders of state and nation. The majority of the Cadets go into the private sector and become leaders. Why change a formula that works?
Seriously that is a driving factor behind a lot of these boneheaded decisions.
Houston Lee said:
Look. Just have the fish go in the new way. Then when they eventually get to their individual units, make them earn something specific to the unit. They can get their Corps Brass, or in my case, their Band Lyre. But then make them earn something else for the unit.
Crap them out and put them through hell. It just may be delayed a bit while they do the generic corps stuff for the first semester.
I was in B-Company "Street Fighters". Make it so they cant earn their official Street Fighter shirt until they complete the "initiation process"...
This would just delay the attrition to that phase, and then it would be taken away from the outfits.
Houston Lee said:
Look. Just have the fish go in the new way. Then when they eventually get to their individual units, make them earn something specific to the unit. They can get their Corps Brass, or in my case, their Band Lyre. But then make them earn something else for the unit.
Crap them out and put them through hell. It just may be delayed a bit while they do the generic corps stuff for the first semester.
I was in B-Company "Street Fighters". Make it so they cant earn their official Street Fighter shirt until they complete the "initiation process"...
Yeah this is what will be pushed. And the corps bulls will succeed in making the fish go form 1 year of hell to 2.
The best part of being in B-2 was getting to be a head as we were basically mean white belts and we mostly were left to our own devices besides the occasional group smoking which was hard crap out but with a lot of good bull joking with our old pissheads.
This crap will make that sophomore/junior trust building be delayed for the good outfits that honor that part.
I agree btw. And this fish brigade is a one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard. Let's take the merits of the idea off the table for a bit and talk about how this decision came to be. It was done in secret without any input for the Corps of Cadet association, the Board of Visitors, and the Board of Regents. The working group the Commandant mentioned, who was on the working group? Were there any Cadets in that group? Based on the letters that the Cadets have been writing not very many.Tom Kazansky 2012 said:DEIELREY said:
What about the 60% of Cadets that dont join the Military. The raison d'etre (whatever that is, i feel stupider even typing that btw) of the Corps is to produce leaders of state and nation. The majority of the Cadets go into the private sector and become leaders. Why change a formula that works?
Seriously that is a driving factor behind a lot of these boneheaded decisions.
The process that led to this decision is somehow worse than the actual decision (which is quite an accomplishment because this is a terrible decision).
As a former cadet with a son in the Corps today, I am worried about the Corps future. There are better ideas out there to help the Corps and we are not even looking into them. The Corps is still a wonderful organization. The boy I dropped off at FOW in August is not recognizable. He is turning into a fine young man that is tough and resilient. He has upperclassmen mentors that he looks up to and they set the example for him. He also has upperclassmen that he thinks are poor leaders, but is that so bad? My answer is no it isn't. Seeing poor leadership can make you a better leader. We have to stop this from happening for so many reasons.
Yeah. Corps games seem stupid at the time and for years afterward, but they prepared me oddly well for being a parent. Anyone with kids knows you've gotta lock it up sometimes, and no matter how much you want to laugh at what they're doing, you need to put on a serious face because it's also dangerous or undermining. You also learn a lot of patience and get well practiced in choosing your words carefully, yet quickly. It's an invaluable skill when you're exhausted and trying to explain to your children the importance of listening at bedtime without using words they're not supposed to know.
So true and a wonderful example of how the Corps prepares you for life!!!ABATTBQ11 said:
Yeah. Corps games seem stupid at the time and for years afterward, but they prepared me oddly well for being a parent. Anyone with kids knows you've gotta lock it up sometimes, and no matter how much you want to laugh at what they're doing, you need to put on a serious face because it's also dangerous or undermining. You also learn a lot of patience and get well practiced in choosing your words carefully, yet quickly. It's an invaluable skill when you're exhausted and trying to explain to your children the importance of listening at bedtime without using words they're not supposed to know.
Definitely Not A Cop said:
Sorry you couldn't hack it.
bobbranco said:
Fair enough.
Don't be surprised by the criticism.
What I'm surprised by is the lack of an answer on your membership in the organization and your focus on hazing when it's not a listed driver of this change plan.
Or, maybe I'm unsurprised.
Gator_2 said:
Terrible. Individual unit identity is a positive aspect of the Corps. I know I wouldn't have had the same experience and great memories if I were forced to be buddies with some of those other dweebs.
LOL. My ole lady was RV buddies with some Gators but then stole an outfit shirt and took a picture wearing it by yalls sign. When that got found out, they sent a fish detail to come air his ass out, but didn't realize BQ drummers get up earlier than anyone else, so they came after me instead. Good times.
Maybe he punched and had his **** thrown out a fourth floor window when his buddies found outJodyMcD96 said:bobbranco said:
Fair enough.
Don't be surprised by the criticism.
What I'm surprised by is the lack of an answer on your membership in the organization and your focus on hazing when it's not a listed driver of this change plan.
Or, maybe I'm unsurprised.
Yeah, he must be one of my fish "buddies" that punched.
Double Talkin' Jive...
I made a lighthearted comment that was, not surprisingly, taken too literally on F16. I hope I crapped him out at some point, but I don't remember him. He was not in my outfit.tiko89 said:
"This is all my fault. My apologies to everyone on this board. Clearly, I didn't crap out this commandant enough when we were in the Corps."
tree91, I heard that Michaelis was a frog into your outfit? I'm wondering if that colors his experience and thoughts on the fish year....
Heck, I thought it was funny.
As for retention, we started with 20. Seven of us wore boots.
As for retention, we started with 20. Seven of us wore boots.
It is funny, I learned he came from the command of the training center in Fort Jackson.tree91 said:I made a lighthearted comment that was, not surprisingly, taken too literally on F16. I hope I crapped him out at some point, but I don't remember him. He was not in my outfit.tiko89 said:
"This is all my fault. My apologies to everyone on this board. Clearly, I didn't crap out this commandant enough when we were in the Corps."
tree91, I heard that Michaelis was a frog into your outfit? I'm wondering if that colors his experience and thoughts on the fish year....
When I was in the Army, Fort Jackson was notorious for being the easiest training center that produced the softest soldiers. This is where they sent all the admin type MOS jobs and they got a nice cushy basic training with easy drill sergeants.
Funny enough that Michaelis was in E-1 and my uncle was '91 L-1 Fighter--My uncle likely did crap him out on occasion.
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