Ukraine - National Disaster

7,002 Views | 100 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by geoag58
Tanker123
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Ukraine's military and people need so much support. Many Ukrainians are experiencing a horrific national disaster. Displaced people need shelter, food, and essential services. However, resources for this endeavor competes with fighting a war.

Displaced people need centralized places where their is safety and sustainment, and first responders and aid workers must deploy to help the people. This requires a lot of planning, coordination, and resources. None of this is easy.

I don't think many of you are cognizant the US has given funds to Ukraine for humanitarian aid to include aid to support Ukrainian companies, economy, and creating job growth. Therefore, many of you will be pissed about something that has already taken place.
The Porkchop Express
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Send them all the money you're making on college football.
WARNING: I have a deep-seated desire for others to love the Star Wars franchise as much as I do, in exactly the way I do, and get snippy and sensitive and passive-aggressive when they don't.
CrackerJackAg
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AG
Pass. I don't care if Russia wants Ukraine.
Logos Stick
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Ok then, how about another $500 billion?

I mean, we are only $35 trillion in debt and our debt to gdp ratio is 125%.
Logos Stick
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Tell ya what, I say we come to an agreement where Putin gets to keep some territory and Ukraine gets the rest.

And then we sell Ukraine some tactical nukes and tell them they will never be part of NATO.
aggie93
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AG
If you actually care about the people of Ukraine you should be pushing for a peace deal while they still have some population and resources left. Funding an endless stalemate war with massive casualties doesn't help the people of Ukraine. It has a marginal benefit to NATO to bleed Russia but we have already learned the Russian military is limited and not a conventional threat to take on NATO. Russia isn't going to stop in Ukraine until they get what they need in terms of security assurances. They will just keep sending everything until the country collapses if they have to.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
japantiger
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S
Ukraine is a natural disaster that we largely created by fomenting a coupe under Obama. We need to learn to stay the hell out of other countries business.

When anyone attacks a NATAO country over there let me know; until then, if the Europeans are concerned about the Ukraine natural disaster, they can come to the rescue.
VitruvianAg
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AG
Logos Stick said:

Tell ya what, I say we come to an agreement where Putin gets to keep some territory and Ukraine gets the rest.

And then we sell Ukraine some tactical nukes and tell them they will never be part of NATO.


Trouble is, we, the US, promised them their security if they dismantled their nuclear arsenal...

You would think someone is confusing Ukraine with a Native American Tribe?
El Gallo Blanco
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Team Russia!

Get Off My Lawn
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The US is propping up the Ukrainian government, who in turn is feeding their young men to the grinder as a proxy war for the us to exhaust Russia. Meanwhile, all of the politicians are getting kickbacks and the average Ukrainian suffers.

So what does Ukraine really need? A government who represents their interests. Which would mean peace talks.
Not Coach Jimbo
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Are you saying war is bad....?!? This is a novel thought.

Yet you probably won't vote for the person that would stop the war...

But you'll certainly vote for the people getting rich off of it.

Bahhhh baaahhhh goes the sheep.

CheeseSndwch
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Stop Nation Building
Rongagin71
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AG
CheeseSndwch said:

Stop Nation Building
I suspect it's more about "contract building"
as in "the bigger the contract, the bigger the kickback".
nortex97
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AG
VitruvianAg said:

Logos Stick said:

Tell ya what, I say we come to an agreement where Putin gets to keep some territory and Ukraine gets the rest.

And then we sell Ukraine some tactical nukes and tell them they will never be part of NATO.


Trouble is, we, the US, promised them their security if they dismantled their nuclear arsenal...

You would think someone is confusing Ukraine with a Native American Tribe?
We have tremendous crises right here at home;



It's terrible what that clown's proxy war has done to them;



Ellis Wyatt
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Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?
nortex97
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AG
Yes, yes it is.



"Oh we desperately need to 'help' Ukraine some more."
Yukon Cornelius
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AG
Why doesn't congress stop it. Power of the purse. They are all complicit.
fixer
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Best I can do is a flag in my yard.
Funky Winkerbean
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AG
It's a corrupt ****hole country. Let it go.
Waffledynamics
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AG
All the people calling for peace talks don't understand that Russia doesn't want peace. They want victory. Ukraine is important to defend.
Kraft Punk
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I'm sorry but didn't Sean Penn give the Ukrainian actor president his Oscar?

What more could the Ukrainians need?
MouthBQ98
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AG
Yes, it is a big weird to me to see a significant group of Americans sort of hoping that the aggressive authoritarian state will go ahead and prevail and that the state under attack should submit to puppet status. Regardless of our ability or choice to provide direct assistance, we shouldn't be advocating for a people to just go ahead and submit to an aggressive tyrant for their own good. It's totally inconsistent with our own national ethos.
nortex97
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AG
MouthBQ98 said:

Yes, it is a big weird to me to see a significant group of Americans sort of hoping that the aggressive authoritarian state will go ahead and prevail and that the state under attack should submit to puppet status. Regardless of our ability or choice to provide direct assistance, we shouldn't be advocating for a people to just go ahead and submit to an aggressive tyrant for their own good. It's totally inconsistent with our own national ethos.
They are both totalitarian states. Ukraine was before the proxy war even started, just fyi. If Ukraine prevails it will cost American tax payers a trillion dollars to rebuild it.

Get Off My Lawn
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Waffledynamics said:

All the people calling for peace talks don't understand that Russia doesn't want peace. They want victory. Ukraine is important to defend.
We understand. We just don't care much about where a line on a map on the other side of the globe gets redrawn. We certainly shouldn't care more than Europe.
MouthBQ98
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AG
It's not our place necessarily to judge the government Ukraine has put in place for itself. If it's people don't want to be Russian puppets, that is also their choice. It didn't seem to be invaded. It didn't invade Russia.

You could as easily argue FDR's depression and World War II governments were less than democratic. The apparatus of the state operated to a quite authoritarian degree even here in the USA under such extreme circumstances.
Matt_ag98
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CrackerJackAg said:

Pass. I don't care if Russia wants Ukraine.


I mean it's on Europe's doorstep...you would think they should be the ones who really care what happens with Russia and their neighboring countries
MouthBQ98
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AG
We don't need to rebuild it. That got us nothing in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Now if private entities want to invest in it, then so be it.

I'll agree this is two sets of corrupt oligarchs fighting over who will dominate Ukraine but at least it is Ukraine's own corruption that would dominate their politics, and not Russia's. It is morally objectionable to advocate outside aggression just because a state isn't governing itself more ideally. It was stupid when we did it in Iraq and we weren't even planning to stay and control it all in perpetuity.
nortex97
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MouthBQ98 said:

It's not our place necessarily to judge the government Ukraine has put in place for itself. If it's people don't want to be Russian puppets, that is also their choice. It didn't seem to be invaded. It didn't invade Russia.
Victoria Nuland put the government of Ukraine in place.

This war isn't about FDR. Ukrainians have largely voted with their feet when they can, to get out of the country. They can't even pass a new conscription bill in their Zelensky-controlled parliament because it might cause a fresh anti-Nuland revolution.
nortex97
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AG
MouthBQ98 said:

We don't need to rebuild it. That got us nothing in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Now if private entities want to invest in it, then so be it.

I'll agree this is two sets of corrupt oligarchs fighting over who will dominate Ukraine but at least it is Ukraine's own corruption that would dominate their politics, and not Russia's. It is morally objectionable to advocate outside aggression just because a state isn't governing itself more ideally. It was stupid when we did it in Iraq and we weren't even planning to stay and control it all in perpetuity.
LOL, I agree about Afghanistan, and Iraq to boot. We spent money unwisely before allowing the traitor in chief to abandon afghan anyway to the Chinese-Taliban etc.

I promise you the swamp will/would exceed the $1.1 trillion estimate floated a year ago. Heck, knowing government and bidenflation times, the total might be closer to three trillion. It would go through JP Morgan and Blackrock via various aid appropriations/"loans" etc.

My real concern is that somehow that happens even if/when Russia wins anyway.
MouthBQ98
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AG
I'm well aware of our meddling. That was stupid and we and the Europeans bear some degree of responsibility for the political upheaval there. But before that, we meddled in convincing them to give up their share of strategic and tactical nuclear weapons unilaterally even though Russia kept all of theirs, in exchange for a sovereignty guarantee. Are we liars?
Ags4DaWin
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MouthBQ98 said:

Yes, it is a big weird to me to see a significant group of Americans sort of hoping that the aggressive authoritarian state will go ahead and prevail and that the state under attack should submit to puppet status. Regardless of our ability or choice to provide direct assistance, we shouldn't be advocating for a people to just go ahead and submit to an aggressive tyrant for their own good. It's totally inconsistent with our own national ethos.


They can fight as long as they are willing to hold out.

I only ask that they fight with both hands on their rifles instead of in my pockets.

It will help them shoot straighter
MouthBQ98
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AG
I'm fine with that, but we did promise them national sovereignty if they let us haul off their nuclear arsenal. That arsenal would have made Russian aggression excessively risky for Russia, and we asked them to trade it away in our word. That is our responsibility, is it not?

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine, when the major factor in all of this occurring is Putin and Russia. That idiot Obama bears much of the responsibility for this.
Ags4DaWin
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We also "promised" Russia we would not move NATO further east and have been doing so incrementally since the fall of the Soviet bloc.

Apparently we make all kinds of promises we don't keep


So why should we continue to spend billions to prop up another oppressive regime?
Waffledynamics
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MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.

MouthBQ98
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That "promise" was a Russian presumption, not a declaration or treaty. Russia should have made nice with Ukraine and convinced them to be an ally, instead of trying to bully and manipulate them into submission.

If Russia hadn't bullied and oppressed its neighbors for over a century under its domination or control as the Tsaritsyn empire and then the Russian dominated Soviet unions, its neighbors wouldn't resent and fear it so.
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