Ukraine - National Disaster

7,004 Views | 100 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by geoag58
fc2112
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They could surrender.
Get Off My Lawn
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The Pax Americana argument where a handful of politicians signed future generation up to own international security across the globe and for some super serious magical reason our current batch of politicians is powerless to discard obligations which no longer benefit us.

Im not a fan of reneging, but maintaining a deal that has become foolish at great expense without ever revisiting whether it still makes sense is really stupid.
Ags4DaWin
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Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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fixer said:

Best I can do is a flag in my yard.
Best I can do is just not give a rip. This nation has its own problems, courtesy of the Democrats and RINOs who are screwing us over.
#FJB
Ags4DaWin
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MouthBQ98 said:

That "promise" was a Russian presumption, not a declaration or treaty. Russia should have made nice with Ukraine and convinced them to be an ally, instead of trying to bully and manipulate them into submission.

If Russia hadn't bullied and oppressed its neighbors for over a century under its domination or control as the Tsaritsyn empire and then the Russian dominated Soviet unions, its neighbors wouldn't resent and fear it so.


The latter has nothing to do with the former and justifying foolish politicians who stoked paranoia unnecessarily instead of trying to bring Russia into the fold with Europe.

And LOL AT "THE RUSSIANS ASSUMED IT WE SAID IT BUT SHAME ON THEM FOR NOT KNOWING WE DIDN'T REALLY MEAN IT."

MouthBQ98
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AG
Except most DO benefit us. People are just too myopic to see how it has or refuse to admit relative international stability has been hugely important to our economic prosperity here for decades.
Waffledynamics
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Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Speaking of "whataboutism", how about you join me and other people that call for slashing the other slices of pie in order to solve the natiional debt? Ukraine aid is a drop in the bucket. It's effectively nothing. End Social Security or make it possible to opt out. Reform our bloated and corrupt health system. You would actually notice improvements there.
MouthBQ98
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AG
I think we tried to play nice with Russia, and it seemed to be working for a while. I was quite optimistic about it in the 2000's but something went awry in the late 2000's and it seemed to have a lot of do with Putin sand Russian nationalism and a reversion to its previous policy of manipulating and politically dominating states on its borders. I don't fault Russia for seeking to have its own sphere of influence but the states around it should have a sovereign choice in the matter.
Ags4DaWin
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Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Speaking of "whataboutism", how about you join me and other people that call for slashing the other slices of pie in order to solve the natiional debt? Ukraine aid is a drop in the bucket. It's effectively nothing. End Social Security or make it possible to opt out. Reform our bloated and corrupt health system. You would actually notice improvements there.
Cool.

I am on board.

Slash unnecessary departments.

Department of education being one.

Slash foreign aid to nothing until the budget is under control.

Slash aid to illegals, move it over to veterans.

Allow insurance carriers to compete across state lines.

Allow more diverse insurance options. Cut back on onerous regulations that create artificial monopolies on drugs like insulin and epi pens.

Break up the big pharma/med provider cartels.

Decouple insurance from jobs.
Add a tax that covers basic emergency care since we have legislated that ER's stabilize everyone but refuse to provide funding and so insured patienta and cash patients pay for these freeloaders.

scrap obamacare and subsidies.

End no bid contracts

Go for it. I am on board.
Gigem314
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nortex97 said:

Yes, yes it is.



"Oh we desperately need to 'help' Ukraine some more."
People that get triggered over posts from a handle called "Catturd"
Logos Stick
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Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Speaking of "whataboutism", how about you join me and other people that call for slashing the other slices of pie in order to solve the natiional debt? Ukraine aid is a drop in the bucket. It's effectively nothing. End Social Security or make it possible to opt out. Reform our bloated and corrupt health system. You would actually notice improvements there.


At least that other spending benefits citizens in this country. The spending on Ukraine stands alone and should be judged on the merits alone. Stop trying to justify it by comparing it to other parts of the budget.
MouthBQ98
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AG
Point is as the still preeminent global economic superpower, we depend greatly on both trade and security treaties to maintain our status. There are many reasons why America is disproportionately wealthy and a very substantial one is our military power to secure international trade on the seas and keep some degree of international stability has allowed us to use that for decades as subtle leverage to secure trade that is favorable to us. In isolation, we would not be nearly as prosperous as we are. Just see the British and their rapid post-imperial decline after the war. That is something to consider. We are necessarily involved in global politics if we want to be involved in global economics and it is ALWAYS better to be dominant than to be subject to the influence or manipulation of others.
When we speak, we must be perceived to be able and willing to follow through.
Waffledynamics
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Logos Stick said:

Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Speaking of "whataboutism", how about you join me and other people that call for slashing the other slices of pie in order to solve the natiional debt? Ukraine aid is a drop in the bucket. It's effectively nothing. End Social Security or make it possible to opt out. Reform our bloated and corrupt health system. You would actually notice improvements there.


At least that other spending benefits citizens in this country. The spending on Ukraine stands alone and should be judged on the merits alone. Stop trying to justify it by comparing it to other parts of the budget.
Oh, so now we like government spending and think it's beneficial?

"Nooo don't cut my benefits!"
Waffledynamics
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Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Speaking of "whataboutism", how about you join me and other people that call for slashing the other slices of pie in order to solve the natiional debt? Ukraine aid is a drop in the bucket. It's effectively nothing. End Social Security or make it possible to opt out. Reform our bloated and corrupt health system. You would actually notice improvements there.
Cool.

I am on board.

Slash unnecessary departments.

Department of education being one.

Slash foreign aid to nothing until the budget is under control.

Slash aid to illegals, move it over to veterans.

Allow insurance carriers to compete across state lines.

Allow more diverse insurance options. Cut back on onerous regulations that create artificial monopolies on drugs like insulin and epi pens.

Break up the big pharma/med provider cartels.

Decouple insurance from jobs.
Add a tax that covers basic emergency care since we have legislated that ER's stabilize everyone but scrap ibamacare and subsidies.

End no bid contracts

Go for it. I am on board.
Agreed with basically every except for zeroing out foreign aid, though it isn't all necessary. It pays dividends to have friends in geopolitics.
Get Off My Lawn
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MouthBQ98 said:

Except most DO benefit us. People are just too myopic to see how it has or refuse to admit relative international stability has been hugely important to our economic prosperity here for decades.
Ok - so we're playing "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" this morning? Go ahead. How is my personal life improved by our Fed printing currency and consuming stockpiles to bolster Ukraine?
LOYAL AG
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Ellis Wyatt said:

Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?


You really think that's what's happening here? You think Russia is winning this proxy war against us by making us spend money we don't have to prop up a nation that stands between us and direct engagement with them? That's a really odd take for sure. You think a two year long war that was supposed to end in two weeks represents success for Russia? What have we learned in the past two years about Russia? They aren't capable of winning a war we aren't even directly involved in. Both countries now know beyond all doubt that they don't want this fight and somehow that looks like success to them?

This has never been about Ukraine for them. Or us. For them it's about the next country over and for us it's about exhausting their ability to fight so we don't have to defend the next country over. We can argue all day about what our commitment really should be but this has been an abject failure for Russia.
A fearful society is a compliant society. That's why Democrats and criminals prefer their victims to be unarmed. Gun Control is not about guns, it's about control.
MouthBQ98
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AG
Because everyone else we have treaties with that benefit us needs to see we will stand behind our treaties, at least much or most of the time. Especially after we blew it in Afghanistan and wasted our efforts in Iraq.

I don't know that spending lot of money in Ukraine is good. It may not be, but we do need to ensure that other nations and people want to deal positively with us, as we benefit from those exchanges by and large.
usmcbrooks
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fixer said:

Best I can do is a flag in my yard.
Flag on Facebook.....
nortex97
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usmcbrooks said:

fixer said:

Best I can do is a flag in my yard.
Flag on Facebook.....
The ones on twitter are very useful, imho. Sort of like the pro vaccine/bandaid ones were a few years ago, it lets you know real quickly someone is a delusional believer in propaganda without having to read anything they typed.
Get Off My Lawn
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That's a case that the establishment needs to be dependable to keep their position. But if that establishment is subverting my domestic interests - then what's my benefit in them retaining clout? I'd rather our fed gain some humility and stop trying to exert influence on the globe - in many instances to my detriment and at my expense.
BadMoonRisin
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Has there ever been another government in power that has sent money to us when something sad happens?

Why is it always just a foregone conclusion that whatever the hell happens, the united states will just send you billions of dollars that it stole from the people that produced actual things of value?

And how the hell have we been normalized to just be "OK" with it?

They are taking money from you and I, and sending it to thieves. And if we don't agree to that, we are somehow Putin puppets and support mother Russia? And Donald Trump was impeached because we certainly can never ask bout all of the billions of dollars that go to Ukraine, right?

Give me a break.
boboguitar
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aggie93 said:

If you actually care about the people of Ukraine you should be pushing for a peace deal while they still have some population and resources left. Funding an endless stalemate war with massive casualties doesn't help the people of Ukraine. It has a marginal benefit to NATO to bleed Russia but we have already learned the Russian military is limited and not a conventional threat to take on NATO. Russia isn't going to stop in Ukraine until they get what they need in terms of security assurances. They will just keep sending everything until the country collapses if they have to.


Didn't chamberlain try that with Hitler?

Have gave Hitler Sudetenland in exchange for no further aggression.
one MEEN Ag
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Current takes:
-America got what it wanted. Bled russia of manpower, it got to fire off an old generation of artillery that was made to be pointed at russia
-the world got to see what the new modern hell of drone warfare actually looks like
-the world got to see what the old hell of soviet warfare still looks like
-the worst of russia's invasion was repelled, ukraine will continue to exist as a country
-Russia achieved its other primary objectives of securing more water access, oil and gas rich land access.

-Ukraine doesn't have the manpower or technology to overcome the current stalemate.
-Ukraine's future demographics have become crippled. They won't be able to play offense against Russia for a very long time.
-Ukraine, at its core, is a corrupt country that did not take its post soviet security obligations seriously enough. It has waged a war through the aligned interests of outside actors. The war will end when the outside actors say so. -US intelligence agencies set this all in motion. Ukraine is paying the price for removing themselves from Russian sphere while being on the border of Russia.
one safe place
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Sell Ukraine what they need, cash only, in advance. As for any other assistance such as free money, loans, or fighters we need to tell Europe it is in their back yard and to deal with it.
boboguitar
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BadMoonRisin said:

Has there ever been another government in power that has sent money to us when something sad happens?

Why is it always just a foregone conclusion that whatever the hell happens, the united states will just send you billions of dollars that it stole from the people that produced actual things of value?

And how the hell have we been normalized to just be "OK" with it?

They are taking money from you and I, and sending it to thieves. And if we don't agree to that, we are somehow Putin puppets and support mother Russia? And Donald Trump was impeached because we certainly can never ask bout all of the billions of dollars that go to Ukraine, right?

Give me a break.


A lot of countries sent us aid following 9/11.
Ag87H2O
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Rongagin71 said:

CheeseSndwch said:

Stop Nation Building
I suspect it's more about "contract building"
as in "the bigger the contract, the bigger the kickback".


Massive money laundering scheme for the Democrats and the military industrial complex.
geoag58
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MouthBQ98 said:

Except most DO benefit us. People are just too myopic to see how it has or refuse to admit relative international stability has been hugely important to our economic prosperity here for decades.


Thirty-four trillion in debt, the vast majority of the debt in the last fifteen years, just screams economic prosperity.
Fight against the dictatorship of the federal bureaucracy!
BluHorseShu
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MouthBQ98 said:

Yes, it is a big weird to me to see a significant group of Americans sort of hoping that the aggressive authoritarian state will go ahead and prevail and that the state under attack should submit to puppet status. Regardless of our ability or choice to provide direct assistance, we shouldn't be advocating for a people to just go ahead and submit to an aggressive tyrant for their own good. It's totally inconsistent with our own national ethos.
Agreed. I just don't get this idea of 'Russia will stop once they take over Ukraine'. Putin is adept at testing how far he can go and how much he can get away with. It's not like he's going to start an all out war. He'll keep chipping away. And it doesn't help when Trump says he'll let them do whatever the hell they want if NATO allies don't pony up to help with costs. Putin loves that.

geoag58
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MouthBQ98 said:

Point is as the still preeminent global economic superpower, we depend greatly on both trade and security treaties to maintain our status. There are many reasons why America is disproportionately wealthy and a very substantial one is our military power to secure international trade on the seas and keep some degree of international stability has allowed us to use that for decades as subtle leverage to secure trade that is favorable to us. In isolation, we would not be nearly as prosperous as we are. Just see the British and their rapid post-imperial decline after the war. That is something to consider. We are necessarily involved in global politics if we want to be involved in global economics and it is ALWAYS better to be dominant than to be subject to the influence or manipulation of others.
When we speak, we must be perceived to be able and willing to follow through.


Our leaders have squandered the WWII dividend and world reserve currency status. Nation building is an abject failure not that we should disengage from the world but Trump had us on a much better track than we are currently on.

Our foray into Ukraine was done under pretext that is a lie that is becoming more clear every day. So you are promoting the lie that we were a disinterested party before Russia moved against Ukraine. The best we can hope for here is a stalemate unless you want to risk a nuclear exchange.

What do you and see as the end game in Ukraine?
Russia is learning and adapting for future confrontations now effectively emplying drone technology. And Russia has help in resupply by a grouping created after this war began. John Kerry and the Biden administration even funded group member Iran. So in effect we are supplying both sides in this war. Do you deny that our government has been involved in trying to reshape this region for at least fifteen years?
Fight against the dictatorship of the federal bureaucracy!
BadMoonRisin
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boboguitar said:

BadMoonRisin said:

Has there ever been another government in power that has sent money to us when something sad happens?

Why is it always just a foregone conclusion that whatever the hell happens, the united states will just send you billions of dollars that it stole from the people that produced actual things of value?

And how the hell have we been normalized to just be "OK" with it?

They are taking money from you and I, and sending it to thieves. And if we don't agree to that, we are somehow Putin puppets and support mother Russia? And Donald Trump was impeached because we certainly can never ask bout all of the billions of dollars that go to Ukraine, right?

Give me a break.


A lot of countries sent us aid following 9/11.
Oh yeah, let's tally that up. Just make sure the conversion rate is in dogs, cows, llamas, camels, and whatever else doesnt matter.

Im sure when the equivalency is Reaper drone strikes that there will be very little lost in translation.
Ellis Wyatt
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LOYAL AG said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?


You really think that's what's happening here? You think Russia is winning this proxy war against us by making us spend money we don't have to prop up a nation that stands between us and direct engagement with them?
I think it is a side effect of what is happening.

The truth is, there are a lot of things at play in Ukraine, most of which are detrimental to America. And not many people are asking questions, particularly not the American ruling class.
BadMoonRisin
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AG
Ellis Wyatt said:

LOYAL AG said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?


You really think that's what's happening here? You think Russia is winning this proxy war against us by making us spend money we don't have to prop up a nation that stands between us and direct engagement with them?
I think it is a side effect of what is happening.

The truth is, there are a lot of things at play in Ukraine, most of which are detrimental to America. And not many people are asking questions, particularly not the American ruling class.
There once was a President that asked the questions that you are seeking.

The "American ruling class" cheered for his impeachment, simply for asking about it.
MaxPower
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aggie93 said:

If you actually care about the people of Ukraine you should be pushing for a peace deal while they still have some population and resources left. Funding an endless stalemate war with massive casualties doesn't help the people of Ukraine. It has a marginal benefit to NATO to bleed Russia but we have already learned the Russian military is limited and not a conventional threat to take on NATO. Russia isn't going to stop in Ukraine until they get what they need in terms of security assurances. They will just keep sending everything until the country collapses if they have to.
"Security assurances"? No one knows if that's truly all they want. Or at the very least their interpretation of "security assurance" may very well be a military occupation of Ukraine. It's at a minimum a puppet president.
Ellis Wyatt
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BadMoonRisin said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

LOYAL AG said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?


You really think that's what's happening here? You think Russia is winning this proxy war against us by making us spend money we don't have to prop up a nation that stands between us and direct engagement with them?
I think it is a side effect of what is happening.

The truth is, there are a lot of things at play in Ukraine, most of which are detrimental to America. And not many people are asking questions, particularly not the American ruling class.
There once was a President that asked the questions that you are seeking.

The "American ruling class" cheered for his impeachment, simply for asking about it.
I am aware. And it seems that the corruption and questions needing to be asked have only ramped up since Russia invaded Ukraine. Too many Americans (politicians and advisors) have too much of a vested interest in what is going on over there at present.
boboguitar
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geoag58 said:

MouthBQ98 said:

Except most DO benefit us. People are just too myopic to see how it has or refuse to admit relative international stability has been hugely important to our economic prosperity here for decades.


Thirty-four trillion in debt, the vast majority of the debt in the last fifteen years, just screams economic prosperity.


To be fair, the debt/gdp ratio has been steadily declining since 2020.
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