Ukraine - National Disaster

6,997 Views | 100 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by geoag58
boboguitar
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BadMoonRisin said:

boboguitar said:

BadMoonRisin said:

Has there ever been another government in power that has sent money to us when something sad happens?

Why is it always just a foregone conclusion that whatever the hell happens, the united states will just send you billions of dollars that it stole from the people that produced actual things of value?

And how the hell have we been normalized to just be "OK" with it?

They are taking money from you and I, and sending it to thieves. And if we don't agree to that, we are somehow Putin puppets and support mother Russia? And Donald Trump was impeached because we certainly can never ask bout all of the billions of dollars that go to Ukraine, right?

Give me a break.


A lot of countries sent us aid following 9/11.
Oh yeah, let's tally that up. Just make sure the conversion rate is in dogs, cows, llamas, camels, and whatever else doesnt matter.

Im sure when the equivalency is Reaper drone strikes that there will be very little lost in translation.


You asked a question and I gave an answer.
Ags4DaWin
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Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Speaking of "whataboutism", how about you join me and other people that call for slashing the other slices of pie in order to solve the natiional debt? Ukraine aid is a drop in the bucket. It's effectively nothing. End Social Security or make it possible to opt out. Reform our bloated and corrupt health system. You would actually notice improvements there.
Cool.

I am on board.

Slash unnecessary departments.

Department of education being one.

Slash foreign aid to nothing until the budget is under control.

Slash aid to illegals, move it over to veterans.

Allow insurance carriers to compete across state lines.

Allow more diverse insurance options. Cut back on onerous regulations that create artificial monopolies on drugs like insulin and epi pens.

Break up the big pharma/med provider cartels.

Decouple insurance from jobs.
Add a tax that covers basic emergency care since we have legislated that ER's stabilize everyone but scrap ibamacare and subsidies.

End no bid contracts

Go for it. I am on board.
Agreed with basically every except for zeroing out foreign aid, though it isn't all necessary. It pays dividends to have friends in geopolitics.


Friends who just take money from you are not our coubtry's friends.

They are the money launderers for the establishment government and the crony corporations.
Ags4DaWin
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BluHorseShu said:

MouthBQ98 said:

Yes, it is a big weird to me to see a significant group of Americans sort of hoping that the aggressive authoritarian state will go ahead and prevail and that the state under attack should submit to puppet status. Regardless of our ability or choice to provide direct assistance, we shouldn't be advocating for a people to just go ahead and submit to an aggressive tyrant for their own good. It's totally inconsistent with our own national ethos.
Agreed. I just don't get this idea of 'Russia will stop once they take over Ukraine'. Putin is adept at testing how far he can go and how much he can get away with. It's not like he's going to start an all out war. He'll keep chipping away. And it doesn't help when Trump says he'll let them do whatever the hell they want if NATO allies don't pony up to help with costs. Putin loves that.




Which is why the better plan is to say

"Hey, we get that naval access and a defensible border is a secuirty issue for you. We also get that the persecution of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine was an issue. Let's come up with the proper ethnic lines that meet your concerns, let the local people vote and redraw some borders.

Keep in mind the Ukrainian government after the Obama coup suppressed voting rights, and democracy in eastern Ukraine because the region was too pro Russia for the new proeuropean and American government stooges.

Then you say "We have worked with you. You step one foot outside these lines and there will be boots on the ground."

That is basically how Trump handled Russia in Syria when they were committing atrocities and starting to use biological agents. He destroyed their depots and said

"THIS IS WHERE THE LINE IS. CROSS IT AT YOUR OWN PERIL"

^^this worked and avoided boots on the ground^^

Instead of engaging in a "gentleman's proxy war" where we agree to give Ukraine just enough weapons to drag the conflict out for a decade and allow hundreds of thousands of civilians' lives to be permanently destroyed.

^^this does not work and just enriches the military industrial complex and elites here and abroad at the expense of civilians this is also how the European monarchs behaved under colonialism and ravaged peasant and indigenous populations while enriching themselves.^^
akm91
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boboguitar said:

aggie93 said:

If you actually care about the people of Ukraine you should be pushing for a peace deal while they still have some population and resources left. Funding an endless stalemate war with massive casualties doesn't help the people of Ukraine. It has a marginal benefit to NATO to bleed Russia but we have already learned the Russian military is limited and not a conventional threat to take on NATO. Russia isn't going to stop in Ukraine until they get what they need in terms of security assurances. They will just keep sending everything until the country collapses if they have to.


Didn't chamberlain try that with Hitler?

Have gave Hitler Sudetenland in exchange for no further aggression.
Obama did the same thing with Putin with regards to Russia's annexation of Crimea
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
geoag58
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boboguitar said:

geoag58 said:

MouthBQ98 said:

Except most DO benefit us. People are just too myopic to see how it has or refuse to admit relative international stability has been hugely important to our economic prosperity here for decades.


Thirty-four trillion in debt, the vast majority of the debt in the last fifteen years, just screams economic prosperity.


To be fair, the debt/gdp ratio has been steadily declining since 2020.


What has happened to the buying power of the dollar?
Fight against the dictatorship of the federal bureaucracy!
MouthBQ98
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I imagine things eventually end just about where they are now. Things that can't last, won't.
InfantryAg
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3 pages on an AI generated post...
strbrst777
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Question: Why is America lead dog in financing this war in Europe?
Waffledynamics
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Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Waffledynamics said:

MouthBQ98 said:

It's strange seeing so much ire directed at Ukraine,
The right has its fair share of NPCs too. All of these people complaining about aid to Ukraine sure seem awfully quiet about the other stuff. They'd rather whine about a tiny piece of the 16.2% of our budget dedicated to all of our defense spending.




Actually I think the DOD should be audited and hauled in for an accounting.

I think last time there was 1 trillion in unaccounted for funds

No department should be allowed to "lose" that much money.....sure sign of graft and fraud.

And conservatives love Rand Paul for trying to do something about it.

Nice try at a whataboutism
Speaking of "whataboutism", how about you join me and other people that call for slashing the other slices of pie in order to solve the natiional debt? Ukraine aid is a drop in the bucket. It's effectively nothing. End Social Security or make it possible to opt out. Reform our bloated and corrupt health system. You would actually notice improvements there.
Cool.

I am on board.

Slash unnecessary departments.

Department of education being one.

Slash foreign aid to nothing until the budget is under control.

Slash aid to illegals, move it over to veterans.

Allow insurance carriers to compete across state lines.

Allow more diverse insurance options. Cut back on onerous regulations that create artificial monopolies on drugs like insulin and epi pens.

Break up the big pharma/med provider cartels.

Decouple insurance from jobs.
Add a tax that covers basic emergency care since we have legislated that ER's stabilize everyone but scrap ibamacare and subsidies.

End no bid contracts

Go for it. I am on board.
Agreed with basically every except for zeroing out foreign aid, though it isn't all necessary. It pays dividends to have friends in geopolitics.


Friends who just take money from you are not our coubtry's friends.

They are the money launderers for the establishment government and the crony corporations.
Would you prefer we withdraw all military aid, installations, and operations around the world?
the_batman26
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AG
Kinda, yeah...
Waffledynamics
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strbrst777 said:

Question: Why is America lead dog in financing this war in Europe?
We're not. Europe as a whole has contributed a significant amount.

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Ellis Wyatt
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Waffledynamics said:

strbrst777 said:

Question: Why is America lead dog in financing this war in Europe?
We're not. Europe as a whole has contributed a significant amount.

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Europe isn't a country. His point is valid.
Waffledynamics
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the_batman26 said:

Kinda, yeah...
Okay, congratulations!

All of your goods are now more expensive due to adversarial countries taking control of resources and shipping lanes and gouging the United States, or just restricting the resources and products altogether from the United States.

You are less safe if you travel abroad because countries know they can just kidnap and kill Americans and seize American assets with basically no consequences. This also extends to every other country's citizens who cannot rely on themselves nor the world's superpower to help secure much of the world.

Countries have less of a reason to cooperate since we won't honor any defense pacts or treaties anymore. This means many of them will turn against us at some point, allowing countries with a bone to pick with the United States to position themselves for some sort of action.

Countries kept at bay through the threat of American force have now decided they want to fight each other, bringing warfare and disruption to the global economy. Mass suffering ensues.

More countries get nuclear arsenals due to the deterrence that they offer. At some point, some country or terrorist organization uses a nuke or multiple nukes, very likely meaning a nuclear holocaust on part or the whole of the globe.

Mass suffering and death.

But at least you got what you want.
Waffledynamics
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Ellis Wyatt said:

Waffledynamics said:

strbrst777 said:

Question: Why is America lead dog in financing this war in Europe?
We're not. Europe as a whole has contributed a significant amount.

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Europe isn't a country. His point is valid.
That's moving the goalposts and you know it.
Ciboag96
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Somebody's 12 day old sock just got three pages on Texags Politics board.
WolfCall
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Time for negotiations. The war there needs to stop.
LOYAL AG
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Ellis Wyatt said:

LOYAL AG said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?


You really think that's what's happening here? You think Russia is winning this proxy war against us by making us spend money we don't have to prop up a nation that stands between us and direct engagement with them?
I think it is a side effect of what is happening.

The truth is, there are a lot of things at play in Ukraine, most of which are detrimental to America. And not many people are asking questions, particularly not the American ruling class.


I think that's fair. I certainly get that there are lots of reasons to dislike this quagmire but Russia is in no way winning this thing. This president has been an unmitigated disaster but I think for the most part this specific situation has been handled correctly. I see this as history tells us to see Russia v Afghanistan and US v Viet Nam. No direct involvement by the other global power but the indirect support has been enough create stalemate so that hopefully they give up and go home.

I'm am America first and only. I don't care about Ukraine or their people. I do care about the U.S. soldiers that will have to go fight to defend Poland if Russia eventually succeeds here and has anything left on the other side of that victory. From that perspective keeping them bogged down til they quit is a great outcome.
A fearful society is a compliant society. That's why Democrats and criminals prefer their victims to be unarmed. Gun Control is not about guns, it's about control.
LOYAL AG
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geoag58 said:

MouthBQ98 said:

Point is as the still preeminent global economic superpower, we depend greatly on both trade and security treaties to maintain our status. There are many reasons why America is disproportionately wealthy and a very substantial one is our military power to secure international trade on the seas and keep some degree of international stability has allowed us to use that for decades as subtle leverage to secure trade that is favorable to us. In isolation, we would not be nearly as prosperous as we are. Just see the British and their rapid post-imperial decline after the war. That is something to consider. We are necessarily involved in global politics if we want to be involved in global economics and it is ALWAYS better to be dominant than to be subject to the influence or manipulation of others.
When we speak, we must be perceived to be able and willing to follow through.


Our leaders have squandered the WWII dividend and world reserve currency status. Nation building is an abject failure not that we should disengage from the world but Trump had us on a much better track than we are currently on.


For the record I agree on nation building. It has failed everywhere. But I wasn't aware another currency had replaced the dollar. When did that happen and how's it working out? What currency was it?

How do you conclude we've squandered WWII? We built the greatest era of peace and prosperity in human history. Nothing lasts forever but we were 170 years old when WWII ended and it's been another 80 years since. That's an extremely long time. If you wanted to argue we've squandered the post Cold War period I could buy that but it's hard to argue the success of the post WWII world we built.

A fearful society is a compliant society. That's why Democrats and criminals prefer their victims to be unarmed. Gun Control is not about guns, it's about control.
Street Fighter
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MouthBQ98 said:

It's not our place necessarily to judge the government Ukraine has put in place for itself. If it's people don't want to be Russian puppets, that is also their choice. It didn't seem to be invaded. It didn't invade Russia.

You could as easily argue FDR's depression and World War II governments were less than democratic. The apparatus of the state operated to a quite authoritarian degree even here in the USA under such extreme circumstances.

The US put that government in place though, when it becomes inconvenient again, the CIA will organize another coup.
2023NCAggies
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Waffledynamics said:

strbrst777 said:

Question: Why is America lead dog in financing this war in Europe?
We're not. Europe as a whole has contributed a significant amount.

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
So they have received around 325 billion in aid. Woof that is a lot and it is a stalemate

What will an extra 100 billion get us? Another months of stalemate until they are begging for more?

And Trump couldn't get 4 billion for a border wall and he had both Senate and House his first two years

Our leaders are pathetic
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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nortex97 said:

Yes, yes it is.



"Oh we desperately need to 'help' Ukraine some more."


Don't listen to any sheep that are sheep enough to put a Ukrainian flag in their profile. I'm not making any policy comments here but the last place you should look for information is from a bunch of confused virtue-signaling morons or grifters like Chuck Schumer.
nortex97
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100 percent true. Oh look, the 'next' Ukraine aid bill sneaks in the predicate for Trump's next impeachment. Just a small coincidence, obviously.



Not another dime.
BluHorseShu
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BadMoonRisin said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

LOYAL AG said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?


You really think that's what's happening here? You think Russia is winning this proxy war against us by making us spend money we don't have to prop up a nation that stands between us and direct engagement with them?
I think it is a side effect of what is happening.

The truth is, there are a lot of things at play in Ukraine, most of which are detrimental to America. And not many people are asking questions, particularly not the American ruling class.
There once was a President that asked the questions that you are seeking.

The "American ruling class" cheered for his impeachment, simply for asking about it.
And his latest take is "Let Putin do whatever the hell he wants" if NATO does pay. I'm sure its just his geo-political savy playing 34D chess.....Or he's just an idiot who know his sycophants will believe anything he tells them or defend it without considering the implications were he to act on it.

We'll find out soon enough since he'll be back in office and stop the war in Ukraine within "24 hours". No need to ask questions about it....just have blind faith.
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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nortex97 said:

100 percent true. Oh look, the 'next' Ukraine aid bill sneaks in the predicate for Trump's next impeachment. Just a small coincidence, obviously.



Not another dime.


That's freaking insane.

Some of our resident U.I.s need to wake up.
usmcbrooks
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nortex97 said:

usmcbrooks said:

fixer said:

Best I can do is a flag in my yard.
Flag on Facebook.....
The ones on twitter are very useful, imho. Sort of like the pro vaccine/bandaid ones were a few years ago, it lets you know real quickly someone is a delusional believer in propaganda without having to read anything they typed.



Amen.
texagbeliever
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nortex97 said:

100 percent true. Oh look, the 'next' Ukraine aid bill sneaks in the predicate for Trump's next impeachment. Just a small coincidence, obviously.



Not another dime.
Elon Musk is very active this go around. Long gone are the good ol days of twitter censorship!
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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BluHorseShu said:

BadMoonRisin said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

LOYAL AG said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

Isn't it crazy that we forced the USSR to spend itself out of existence in the Cold War and now they're doing it back to us and we're just lapping it up?


You really think that's what's happening here? You think Russia is winning this proxy war against us by making us spend money we don't have to prop up a nation that stands between us and direct engagement with them?
I think it is a side effect of what is happening.

The truth is, there are a lot of things at play in Ukraine, most of which are detrimental to America. And not many people are asking questions, particularly not the American ruling class.
There once was a President that asked the questions that you are seeking.

The "American ruling class" cheered for his impeachment, simply for asking about it.
And his latest take is "Let Putin do whatever the hell he wants" if NATO does pay. I'm sure its just his geo-political savy playing 34D chess.....Or he's just an idiot who know his sycophants will believe anything he tells them or defend it without considering the implications were he to act on it.

We'll find out soon enough since he'll be back in office and stop the war in Ukraine within "24 hours". No need to ask questions about it....just have blind faith.


You mean blind faith as in you and the left? No thanks.

And before you type up a retort, you could just point me to one post of yours criticizing liberals.

Maybe it's finally time for you to drop the charade. You literally might be the only one here buying it.
Get Off My Lawn
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Never underestimate the power of an unpredictable strongman in establishing and keeping order.

Trump got peace because would-be-bad-actors didn't want to invite his ire.

Dems invite misbehavior because they're functionally feminine: trying to enforce preferred behaviors / standards with gossip, shame, and peer pressure rather than the threat of overwhelming violence.
ts5641
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It's not our problem. Fix the border. Fix the fentanyl crisis. Fix spiking inflation. Fix homelessness. Fix the wokeness of our military. There are multiple issues more pressing to this country than anything happening in Ukraine.
nortex97
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AG


Yep. The disaster is the 600K military age males who left, and the death of 500K. Why should we continue to fund this disaster?
geoag58
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LOYAL AG said:

geoag58 said:

MouthBQ98 said:

Point is as the still preeminent global economic superpower, we depend greatly on both trade and security treaties to maintain our status. There are many reasons why America is disproportionately wealthy and a very substantial one is our military power to secure international trade on the seas and keep some degree of international stability has allowed us to use that for decades as subtle leverage to secure trade that is favorable to us. In isolation, we would not be nearly as prosperous as we are. Just see the British and their rapid post-imperial decline after the war. That is something to consider. We are necessarily involved in global politics if we want to be involved in global economics and it is ALWAYS better to be dominant than to be subject to the influence or manipulation of others.
When we speak, we must be perceived to be able and willing to follow through.


Our leaders have squandered the WWII dividend and world reserve currency status. Nation building is an abject failure not that we should disengage from the world but Trump had us on a much better track than we are currently on.


For the record I agree on nation building. It has failed everywhere. But I wasn't aware another currency had replaced the dollar. When did that happen and how's it working out? What currency was it?

How do you conclude we've squandered WWII? We built the greatest era of peace and prosperity in human history. Nothing lasts forever but we were 170 years old when WWII ended and it's been another 80 years since. That's an extremely long time. If you wanted to argue we've squandered the post Cold War period I could buy that but it's hard to argue the success of the post WWII world we built.




Our politicians have created an ever expanding welfare state at home and our politicians have used our wealth to influence worldwide politics and prop up un-popular governments around the world.

At home we have saddled ourselves and future generations with debt that is destroying the value of our currency and saddled future generations with debt they can't repay.

And overseas too many politicians have used the foreign aid to line their own pockets to support people who too often, use the money for their own purposes rarely helping their own people and their people see us as the problem

We are now 34 trillion in debt and the rate of expansion of the debt is increasing. That is the wasted opportunity I am talking about.
Fight against the dictatorship of the federal bureaucracy!
 
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