They got rid of the intelligence and spatial recognition tests. Did that lead to more diversity? I don't know. But it may have lead to diminished quality in the work force

My son's former BIL who works as a ATC says they are over worked, lots and lots of overtime. The equipment that they use is very old. These could be a few factors of problems , plus a lot more air traffic. The ATC school operated on OK is conducted by a lot of old AT controllers and a lot of them are just there to supplement their retirement.

Perhaps part of it is that things are reported so much wider now.

Sometime around 1990, I was on a Southwest Airlines flight into Houston Hobby. We had already touched down when the pilot applied power and took off again and went around. As we passed an intersecting runway, I could see another passenger jet taking off in our direction on the crossing runway. Fortunately, we passed the intersection ahead of it and there was no collision.

I never saw that in the news.

Another time in a private Bellanca aircraft we were taking off at an uncontrolled airport. I guess that there was a small rise in the middle of the runway because we were unable to see the other end. We announced our intention to takeoff and the runway and then began our roll. Once we were in the air, we saw another aircraft coming toward us that had just taken off from the opposite end of the same runway without announcing his takeoff.

NATCA is part of the problem. Smaller airports such as HOB is a training facility. HOB with crossing RWYs had had plenty of issues over the years. Dont assume all minority controllers are DEI or bad. I have worked with plenty that are really good. Also worked with plenty of non minority that were not worth a crap!!

TexasAggie73 said:

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My son's former BIL who works as a ATC says they are over worked, lots and lots of overtime. The equipment that they use is very old. These could be a few factors of problems , plus a lot more air traffic. The ATC school operated on OK is conducted by a lot of old AT controllers and a lot of them are just there to supplement their retirement.

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Old/retired controllers. Of course they are supplementing their pay. Controllers are forced out of FAA at age 56 from controlling. But, that doesnt mean they dont know the rules.

Logos Stick said:

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Shagga said:

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Remember the Air Atlas crash in Trinity Bay, which was piloted by a guy who randomly started to push buttons when he was placed in a stressful situation? It was known, and he continued to fly. DEI killed that guy and the others on the plane. Thankfully it was only cargo and not passengers. That being said, flying is still much safer than getting in your truck and driving to the grocery store.

Deadly Deception! Unraveling the Mystery of Atlas Air Flight 3591

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Thanks for that post. Great video.

DIE is gonna get people killed.

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And this video still misses some of the details. The training team decided this guy should not get another chance, but HR/management decided they couldn't get rid of a minority. One of the check airmen involved was terminated for not being willing to give this guy more chances than everyone else. Others were threatened that if they spoke up, they would also be ****canned. This one is 100% on the diversity bull***** I hate that I'm in a position to have heard these things firsthand. I just hope one of those ****ing attorneys would actually realize what records to subpoena and who they need to depose. This kind of thing needs to be brought to light.

AggieMD95 said:

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They got rid of the intelligence and spatial recognition tests. Did that lead to more diversity? I don't know. But it may have lead to diminished quality in the work force

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That seems kind of important.

Yikes.

I'm not a pilot nor do I understand their chatter, but she asked Eva015 to turn southbound a dozen times and they continued northbound. Even at the end of video when they finally turned they rolled out and continued East.

I'm not sure where that mountain is but they flew North 100 miles while being told to turn south.

Maybe someone can explain it to me.

zwhag2010 said:

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samurai_science said:

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I wonder why?

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Was this the person the cause of a near miss or improperly instructed a student pilot that resulted in a near miss?

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Unless someone wants to add some context…looks like she's only guilty of flying while black.

Y'all really think the nerdy white dudes that aren't DEI pilots are taking a ton of pictures in their 172s?

EX TEXASEX said:

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So, our closeted bisexual/marxist/muslim former president thought it was a great idea to put a bunch of Karine Jean-Pierre's into Air traffic controller positions and there is an increase in near misses ?? Who could have forseen that ?? I shocked I tell ya, SHOCKED !!

DEI almost sendS plane straight into mountain. Thankfully she resigned after this and before she killed hundreds of people.

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This sounds more to me like the problem of Asian trained pilots not knowing how to fly a plane and instead just following instructions and punching buttons no matter the result. That guy had a helmet fire and almost put a plane into a mountain because he didn't realize heading of 180 is southbound. He was probably punching buttons in the AP and didn't know how to expedite a turn or a climb, nor did he realize he wasn't stopping his climb because he missed some other button. Most American trained, non pilot mill pilots would have turned the AP off and hand flown the airplane when it wasn't doing exactly what they expected. That's also the reason for the 737 MAX accidents - foreign pilots weren't hitting the big red button to turn off the AP when it forced the airplane into an unexpected state.

CharlieBrown17 said:

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zwhag2010 said:

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samurai_science said:

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I wonder why?

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Was this the person the cause of a near miss or improperly instructed a student pilot that resulted in a near miss?

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Unless someone wants to add some context…looks like she's only guilty of flying while black.

Y'all really think the nerdy white dudes that aren't DEI pilots are taking a ton of pictures in their 172s?

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Your two statements seem contradictory

Or that it doesn't matter what skin tone someone is and that people into aviation are into aviation, take pictures and share their passion.

Rapier108 said:

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Yes, and it will be blamed on Republicans for not spending enough money for the FAA.

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And they'll blame Reagan for firing the air traffic controllers back in 1981.

Muktheduck said:

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TriAg2010 said:

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Señor Chang said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Correlation vs Causation.

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So the number of near misses is correlated to "diversity" in the FAA? What conclusion would you draw from this?

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Where is the data to show that diversity hires are involved in near-misses or accidents at higher rates? I see some taking anecdotes - whether verified or not - and passing that off as accepted fact. There are obvious reasons why near misses could be increasing that are not caused by DEI hires:

- The skies are busier. Total aircraft movements in the U.S. are up about 50% from 2009 to 2019.

- Experience is down regardless of demographics. Lots of pilots and controllers hit retirement in the last decade. Airlines are desperately trying to hire and train new crews - to extent they are opening their own flight schools.

That has to be considered before reaching a conclusion.

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DEI has tanked quality in every other industry, why would airfare be uniquely immune?

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I am cringing at the first moment when I hear a doctor say "I need to axe'd you a few questions"!

Pinochet said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Shagga said:

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Remember the Air Atlas crash in Trinity Bay, which was piloted by a guy who randomly started to push buttons when he was placed in a stressful situation? It was known, and he continued to fly. DEI killed that guy and the others on the plane. Thankfully it was only cargo and not passengers. That being said, flying is still much safer than getting in your truck and driving to the grocery store.

Deadly Deception! Unraveling the Mystery of Atlas Air Flight 3591

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Thanks for that post. Great video.

DIE is gonna get people killed.

---

And this video still misses some of the details. The training team decided this guy should not get another chance, but HR/management decided they couldn't get rid of a minority. One of the check airmen involved was terminated for not being willing to give this guy more chances than everyone else. Others were threatened that if they spoke up, they would also be ****canned. This one is 100% on the diversity bull***** I hate that I'm in a position to have heard these things firsthand. I just hope one of those ****ing attorneys would actually realize what records to subpoena and who they need to depose. This kind of thing needs to be brought to light.

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The thing that makes it even worse...

They were willing to send this dude to his death for the sake DIE. There is no way I'm passing that guy for his OWN sake. I tell him that if I send him up, I might as well put a gun to his head and pull the trigger. He was doomed to die. Sad.

JAL Airbus A350 and Japan coast guard plane collide on runway at Haneda.

379 from Airbus survive, 5 from smaller plane dead.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240102-japan-airlines-plane-on-fire-on-runway-at-tokyo-s-haneda-airport-tv-images

nortex97 said:

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Our best hope for safe air travel moving forward is going to be AI. Fewer ex-military pilots nowadays (military is going to drones more and more after all), and Democrats like Buttigieg/Biden have prioritized 'diversity' above competency in all areas.

Ted Cruz, among many others, has been all over this for a while now. The issues actually pre-date Obama, as the FAA has been trying (aka wasting billions inefficiently) to update/upgrade their systems/computers etc. for over 30 years. Adding DEI/gender insanity was just the icing on the cake. We're in 'cross your fingers' mode at this point.

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Back in the late 90s I looked at taking a job that would have been essentially programming for the FAA's modernized ATC system.

I don't believe that system has been fielded yet...

TriAg2010 said:

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Señor Chang said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Correlation vs Causation.

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So the number of near misses is correlated to "diversity" in the FAA? What conclusion would you draw from this?

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Where is the data to show that diversity hires are involved in near-misses or accidents at higher rates? I see some taking anecdotes - whether verified or not - and passing that off as accepted fact.

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Are you really demanding studies from the government or corporate America on the adverse impacts of affirmative action? Don't hold your breath.

Señor Chang said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Correlation vs Causation.

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So the number of near misses is correlated to "diversity" in the FAA? What conclusion would you draw from this?

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Let's see... What happens if:

a) I hire the most qualified people no matter what they look like
b) I hire people who fit a particular political guideline, regardless of how qualified they are

Asked another way... How many games do you think an NFL football team would win if they drafted defensive backs based on DEI?

Pinochet said:

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EX TEXASEX said:

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So, our closeted bisexual/marxist/muslim former president thought it was a great idea to put a bunch of Karine Jean-Pierre's into Air traffic controller positions and there is an increase in near misses ?? Who could have forseen that ?? I shocked I tell ya, SHOCKED !!

DEI almost sendS plane straight into mountain. Thankfully she resigned after this and before she killed hundreds of people.

---

This sounds more to me like the problem of Asian trained pilots not knowing how to fly a plane and instead just following instructions and punching buttons no matter the result. That guy had a helmet fire and almost put a plane into a mountain because he didn't realize heading of 180 is southbound. He was probably punching buttons in the AP and didn't know how to expedite a turn or a climb, nor did he realize he wasn't stopping his climb because he missed some other button. Most American trained, non pilot mill pilots would have turned the AP off and hand flown the airplane when it wasn't doing exactly what they expected. That's also the reason for the 737 MAX accidents - foreign pilots weren't hitting the big red button to turn off the AP when it forced the airplane into an unexpected state.

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The response was STAB TRIM to OFF. The response was to shut off all electrical power to the stabilizer and manually trim the aircraft with the trim wheel between the seats. Auto Pilot does not control or manage a runaway trim condition which is what caused the MAX crashes.

Shagga said:

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Remember the Air Atlas crash in Trinity Bay, which was piloted by a guy who randomly started to push buttons when he was placed in a stressful situation? It was known, and he continued to fly. DEI killed that guy and the others on the plane. Thankfully it was only cargo and not passengers. That being said, flying is still much safer than getting in your truck and driving to the grocery store.

Deadly Deception! Unraveling the Mystery of Atlas Air Flight 3591

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Oh my goodness - I had not seen that comment. So sad.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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JAL Airbus A350 and Japan coast guard plane collide on runway at Haneda.

379 from Airbus survive, 5 from smaller plane dead.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240102-japan-airlines-plane-on-fire-on-runway-at-tokyo-s-haneda-airport-tv-images

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This would have to be a traffic control error, no? Unless Coast Guard plane blundered onto an active runway due to confusion.

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Pinochet said:

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EX TEXASEX said:

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So, our closeted bisexual/marxist/muslim former president thought it was a great idea to put a bunch of Karine Jean-Pierre's into Air traffic controller positions and there is an increase in near misses ?? Who could have forseen that ?? I shocked I tell ya, SHOCKED !!

DEI almost sendS plane straight into mountain. Thankfully she resigned after this and before she killed hundreds of people.

---

This sounds more to me like the problem of Asian trained pilots not knowing how to fly a plane and instead just following instructions and punching buttons no matter the result. That guy had a helmet fire and almost put a plane into a mountain because he didn't realize heading of 180 is southbound. He was probably punching buttons in the AP and didn't know how to expedite a turn or a climb, nor did he realize he wasn't stopping his climb because he missed some other button. Most American trained, non pilot mill pilots would have turned the AP off and hand flown the airplane when it wasn't doing exactly what they expected. That's also the reason for the 737 MAX accidents - foreign pilots weren't hitting the big red button to turn off the AP when it forced the airplane into an unexpected state.

---

The response was STAB TRIM to OFF. The response was to shut off all electrical power to the stabilizer and manually trim the aircraft with the trim wheel between the seats. Auto Pilot does not control or manage a runaway trim condition which is what caused the MAX crashes.

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A distinction without a difference in this scenario. If the automation isn't doing what you want or expect, you turn off automation (auto pilot, auto trim, YD, etc) and hand fly the plane. Every checkride and recurrent I've ever had has brought this up. Foreign pilot training tends to train to numbers and managing automation vs being a pilot of an airplane. That's why the foreigners with a few hundred hours couldn't handle turning the electric trim off and figuring out which way to turn the trim wheel.

MCAS is only active with autopilot off. Both crashes happened without A/P engaged. The Ethiopian crash did have the captain repeatedly trying to engage it, but it was off the whole time.

That's the point. Fly the ****ing plane. Turn off the electric trim and fly the plane when it's doing something you don't like or expect.

If they'd accomplished the first two (memory) steps from airspeed unreliable they'd probably have survived. Left A/T on so thrust stayed at takeoff the entire time.

Oh and I bet that JAL mishap is because of Japan's obsession with diversity

YokelRidesAgain said:

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This would have to be a traffic control error, no? Unless Coast Guard plane blundered onto an active runway due to confusion.

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Those are the two choices...I've haven't heard any reports speculating on the cause.

Were I to speculate, I'd tend to think it was the CG plane. They should have known which runway was actively landing planes. And somebody should have been looking out the window for approaching aircraft. Even if ATC clears you to cross, you still need to look for yourself.

But it was at night, I assume it was a busy airport. Lots of contributing factors possible.

TCAS is what prevented these from becoming actual mid-air collisions.

TAMU1990 said:

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K2-HMFIC said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Ok, give me an alternative cause.

What else has changed that could account for the increase?

Walsh even read some of the test questions to get into the program. It's like 5th grade level stuff.

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Understaffing.

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No worries... we have an open border for that.

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Don't be stupid. These are all Neurosurgeons and future Nobel Prize winners crossing the border 24/7/365. They would never stoop to such a lowly job as a controller. So get real !!!

BonfireNerd04 said:

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TCAS is what prevented these from becoming actual mid-air collisions.

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Nope

First - today was a terrible tragedy which impacts all of us in the aviation business. Accidents have many, many factors; we often say that these are the situations where the holes in the swiss cheese align. It is much too soon to understand the factors that caused this horrible accident.

We work every single day to assure the safety of the National Airspace System and the FAA, despite all their faults, collaborates with the operators and the workforce daily to identify and correct risks to the system. In addition to the lack of stable and predictable funding at the FAA, we haven't had an Administrator for 2 years. The Administration finally nominated, and Congress rushed to confirm, a new Administrator at the end of October; the previous Deputy, the position that normally 'runs' the day-to-day at the agency, had one focus, DEI, and the agency suffered for it. FAA now has an Administrator and Deputy who have experience in the agency which is invaluable.

We still have the safest, most efficient system in the world, but we have work to do to assure that we maintain this record. DEI has caused some issues but the real problems go far beyond DEI:

• Administrations and Congress MUST make aviation a top priority. I've watched this administration and the Obama administration, and partisan politics in Congress create programs to benefit airports while the ATC infrastructure is 'marching in place', maintained to assure no degradation of safety but with little to no improvements.
• The FAA's funding levels have suffered: with numerous continuing resolutions, delays in reauthorizing the FAA and inflation, have caused the budget to lose almost $1B in value. This is not unique to the Dems: the Rs have contributed to this problem too. Mr. Cruz, and others, have put pressure on the agency to reform programs and policies but funding remains a significant impediment.
• The controller workforce is understaffed and hiring is a huge priority; that said, it takes 2 years to train, check-out and certify a controller. FAA continues to look for opportunities to reduce that timeframe. And the required increase in Operations funding without a top-line increase to the overall FAA appropriations will have to come from somewhere - by reductions in other programs.
• As someone mentioned, we now have so many safety reporting programs that issues in the NAS are highlighted every day and at times made public. These exist to give pilots and controllers a way to highlight issues and risks in day-to-day operations.

We just developed and deployed a capability called Approach Runway Verification (ARV) to alert terminal controllers if an aircraft is lined up on the wrong runway. It has been through initial keysite but we have been waiting for $ to make additional modifications since June. But this money will have to be offset by a reduction in something else. There is no more money.

Sorry for the long post - I work with the agency, the airlines and other aviation stakeholders every day. DEI might have been a problem, but there are so many others that far outweigh it.

That said, the safety of the system is everyone's top priority and even the incidents you read about are indications that our system works. But humans make mistakes and that is a huge focus. The agency gathered a group of industry representatives last year to analyze the issues in the system and is beginning to implement recommendations from their report but the interdependencies and challenges and lack of stable funding will likely mean all those nice efficiency things and modernization will continue to be delayed until the next Administration makes the aviation system one of its top priorities.

GAC06 said:

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If they'd accomplished the first two (memory) steps from airspeed unreliable they'd probably have survived. Left A/T on so thrust stayed at takeoff the entire time.

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Where is a certain someone to tell you that you have no idea how this plane works when you need him (for a good chuckle)?

Perhaps he finally got the well deserved perma ban. He'll be back soon as the hardest working man in (fill in the blank)