A great start is for you to make your children watch the entire WW2 in color series.

ts5641 said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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At the request of my Engineering degreed daughter, I just bought tickets to see Oppenheimer in 70mm tomorrow night (the day before it opens nationally - one of the few perks of paying to live in LA).

You would think this is going to be a hooray hashtag Women in STEM story but unfortunately, it's a sad state of education story.

After I bought the tickets, she says to me, now who was this guy? Was he like a Nazi scientist or something?

My jaw hit the floor. Not so much that she didn't know who he was - at least she's going to attend the movie and find out, but the fact that she didn't even know whose side he was on. She does know that we stole some scientists from the Nazis but that is more space program related.

I spent a ton of dough on private girls school in Australia and on out of state tuition at the West Point of the South. I can't believe that they didn't cover the development of The Bomb in either of those settings.

Maybe it's just accepted these days that "Nukes are Bad M'Kay" and they don't even discuss the Manhattan Project in history class.

It's been a long time since I took American History in HS, or US Military History in college but I just can't believe that kids these days would not even know the particulars about how we won the War in the Pacific. Since the Pacific Theater affected Australia the most, you'd think that they would teach schoolchildren that their bacon was saved by The Yanks and their A-Bombs. Also by Yanks like my Grandfather who went to Brisbane before participating in amphibious assaults in New Guinea and The Philippines.

So I asked her why did she want to see a 3 hour long movie (runtime 180 minutes with $22 tickets) if she didn't even know who the guy was. She said she heard it was a good movie.

I sure hope it is a good movie, we'll see.

So my question for the parents out there is - What do your kids know about Robert Oppenheimer, The Manhattan Project, WWII in the Pacific?

Is this just an isolated incident or, are we in the midst of an American History Pandemic?

Politics because - our kids should being taught this at the HS and/or College level.

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I bet she had climate change garbage drummed into her the entire time she was in school though.

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Absolutely did but I had enough opportunity to dispel most of that garbage.

Since most of my family is from Galveston County, I was able to share knowledge about Hurricanes with them so that staved off a lot of the Al Gore Katrina fuelled hype.

I was able to take them to Alaska for a week and show them some glaciers and my former hometown of Valdez 20 years after the oil spill.

Probably the best example with my older daughter who was more susceptible to groupthink and fitting in with friends was when she had a high school math problem to write an equation to predict the population of China.

The problem went something like this.

They provided the population of China data for 4 or 5 different points in time. Something like 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950 and now. The wanted an equation that would predict the future population at some year. She got real frustrated with the assignment and I sat down to help her.

I discussed all the factors they didn't take into effect such as WWII, Taiwan's Independence, Hong Kong rejoining China, and the effect of the one child policy.

And I pointed out that we don't know how China got to its 1920 population over its last 5,000+ years of written history.

She understood all that and how pointless it was to try to back in to an equation to predict the population of China using just a few data points.

After she understood that, I said, this is exactly the same as global warming. We have a microscopic percentage of information about the temperature of the earth and we have computer models filled with garbage assumptions trying to make a prediction.

I was really proud that she understood that. And even when her friends would be on the Global Warming / Climate Change bandwagon, she wouldn't join them. She also recognised the futility of trying to explain this reasoning to her friends - if she wanted to keep them as friends.

I learned about the Manhattan project, but I had never heard of Robert Oppenheimer until I visited Los Alamos.

torrid said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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• Somewhat ironically, the MP scientists had no ethical qualms about asking the Allies to assassinate Werner Heisenberg, who was part of Hitler's nuclear weapons program. The OSS tried several times without success. This apparently was a good thing because Heisenberg wasn't much of a help anyway.

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Yeah, he was uncertain about many things.

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Chuckled

it's not just your daughter, op. my business major nephew didn't know that general electric was formed through the 1892 merger of edison general electric company and thomson-houston electric company with the support of drexel, morgan & co. i weep for the decline of american education.

Viper16 said:

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Don't take this the wrong way Hollywood BQ, but what did you teach your child about US History over the years?

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^This!! My father made sure that I learned history and not just Texas or American history. But world history, as well as ancient history. So OP can blame the schools and the education system all he want's. However, allowing the schools to teach your children anything of importance, is like letting a blind person teach someone drivers ed.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Agree that Little Boy was not tested because the design was simple and they believed it would work

Disagree about the TVA. It was created in 1933, long before the MP. The Uranium lab was put at Oak Ridge because the TVA was already there with lots of electricity

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You're more correct.

Oppie was a brilliant theoretical physicist who split his time between Berkeley and Cal Tech. He hosted some of the initial meetings at Berkeley on the feasibility of an atomic bomb, but he wasn't Groves' first choice for the director of Los Alamos.

He was the perfect choice for the first director because had a wide breadth of knowledge which allowed him to discuss technical problems with almost anyone at Los Alamos.

Groves initially was going to make all scientists at Los Alamos accept commissions in the Army, but Oppie dissuaded him from that notion. Groves then was going to make them civilian government scientists but Oppie said that probably wouldn't work either. Oppie told Groves that these emigres would work better under a university-type atmosphere, so Groves allowed Oppie to enlist the University of California as the first management contractor for Los Alamos. (This lasted until 2006, when DOE/NNSA forced a contract change. Currently, A&M is partnered with the University of California and Battel to manage the lab.)

Oppie vigorously opposed the compartmentalization of work that Groves wanted in place for security. Oppie instituted regular staff meetings that were open to all Los Alamos scientists and engineers to discuss solutions to problems that individual efforts were encountering. Los Alamos still holds those meetings.

Oppenheimer could assemble groups of individuals into teams that could accomplish the enormous task of creating the atomic bomb. He was decisive. He could focus on an intricate problem at hand and still maintain the big picture. And he was brilliant at herding cats (with the exception of Edward Teller.)

He never was a member of the Communist Party, although his brother and wife probably were. Groves ordered his security chief to issue him his clearance in spite of the Army's misgivings. He understood what had to be done and why, as did almost all of the scientists at Los Alamos, but felt the great burden that history and circumstances had levied upon them at this nexus of world history.

Groves made the Manhattan Project work like no other person could. Oppenheimer made Los Alamos work like no other person could.

Who built the Los Alamos ski slopes?

Kidding. Very informative, thanks for the post.

davec81 said:

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Groves made the Manhattan Project work like no other person could. Oppenheimer made Los Alamos work like no other person could.

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This is a key point. There was much more to it than the scientific work of designing the first bomb. You had to create the massive industrial infrastructure at places like Oak Ridge (among others).

The big bang took and shook the world
Shot down the rising sun
The end was begun and it hit everyone
When the chain reaction was done
Big shots try to hold it back
Fools try to wish it away

(1:45) "Manhattan Project" by the rock band Rush

Great synopsis

aggiehawg said:

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Who built the Los Alamos ski slopes?

Kidding. Very informative, thanks for the post.

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Los Alamos Ski Club . . .

davec81 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Who built the Los Alamos ski slopes?

Kidding. Very informative, thanks for the post.

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Los Alamos Ski Club . . .

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My first husband lived there since his Dad was Air Force but became a meteorologist, weather guy after he stopped flying. Korea and Vietnam.

There were no signs back then. Had to know which road to take to even get to the slopes.

Some a-hole sued since the government was paying for it and they had to put signs up and improve safety on the lifts.

I am old enough to remember pommel lifts. Took some practice to make that seamless, both getting on and trying to get off.. Man! I bought it more times than I care to remember. If you were the slightest bit surprised or off balance? No opportunity to recover on a pommel. You would fall somewhere.

I'll wait to see it when it's not full of annoying people. Nothing worse than packed theaters.

Whirligigs said:

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I'll wait to see it when it's not full of annoying people. Nothing worse than packed theaters.

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Just wear your mask,

You'll be fine.

aggiehawg said:

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Whirligigs said:

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I'll wait to see it when it's not full of annoying people. Nothing worse than packed theaters.

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Just wear your mask,

You'll be fine.

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I was hoping to go after a full week of drinking beer and eating high gas foods and … unleash the fury. That might be fun.

I'll have to ask my adult kids about this good question.

I know for sure they know this much though!

Oh I also faintly recall visiting Los Alamos as a young child. I was in Alberquerque from age 2-6 or so and remember seeing the big ass bombs at the museum.

davec81 said:

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Oppie was a brilliant theoretical physicist who split his time between Berkeley and Cal Tech. He hosted some of the initial meetings at Berkeley on the feasibility of an atomic bomb, but he wasn't Groves' first choice for the director of Los Alamos.

He was the perfect choice for the first director because had a wide breadth of knowledge which allowed him to discuss technical problems with almost anyone at Los Alamos.

Groves initially was going to make all scientists at Los Alamos accept commissions in the Army, but Oppie dissuaded him from that notion. Groves then was going to make them civilian government scientists but Oppie said that probably wouldn't work either. Oppie told Groves that these emigres would work better under a university-type atmosphere, so Groves allowed Oppie to enlist the University of California as the first management contractor for Los Alamos. (This lasted until 2006, when DOE/NNSA forced a contract change. Currently, A&M is partnered with the University of California and Battel to manage the lab.)

Oppie vigorously opposed the compartmentalization of work that Groves wanted in place for security. Oppie instituted regular staff meetings that were open to all Los Alamos scientists and engineers to discuss solutions to problems that individual efforts were encountering. Los Alamos still holds those meetings.

Oppenheimer could assemble groups of individuals into teams that could accomplish the enormous task of creating the atomic bomb. He was decisive. He could focus on an intricate problem at hand and still maintain the big picture. And he was brilliant at herding cats (with the exception of Edward Teller.)

He never was a member of the Communist Party, although his brother and wife probably were. Groves ordered his security chief to issue him his clearance in spite of the Army's misgivings. He understood what had to be done and why, as did almost all of the scientists at Los Alamos, but felt the great burden that history and circumstances had levied upon them at this nexus of world history.

Groves made the Manhattan Project work like no other person could. Oppenheimer made Los Alamos work like no other person could.

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Speaking of Teller, he spoke at the 1971 Nuclear Science Symposium for high school students at t.u.

One thing that was odd about his speech was that while we were allowed to ask question, they had to be written on paper. No questions were allowed orally.

Years later, it became clear that he didn't want any questions asked about Oppenheimer losing his security clearance after Teller threw him under the bus. So by having them written, he could pick and choose what to answer.

How could you not know who Oppenheimer was?

Saw the movie tonight as my last hurrah at the AMC16 in downtown Burbank.

Since it was Barbenheimer day, saw lots of females and a surprisingly high number of males dressed up for the Barbie movie. Some of the folks really put a lot of effort into it.

One cool thing for the Barbie fans, they had a giant box you could stand in to take your picture like you're a Barbie Doll.

For a scientist based movie, I thought the sex scenes actually added to the story.
It was pretty wild seeing a lot of famous names referenced in the movie and they all seemed to know each other. I guess Quantum Physics is a small world.

Went to dinner after the show and discussed it with my daughter.
Basically we both had a lot of homework to do.

There were a couple of military insignia questions I had to look up.
I didn't recognize the Branch on an Army Officer's uniform and I didn't recognize his shoulder patch either.

Now here's the big shocker for me - and I felt like an idiot for not realizing it or figuring it out.

It never occurred to me that the original intent of "The Bomb" was to use it against Germany. Yes this seems obvious but I never really gave it much thought since it never happened.

Viper16 said:

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Don't take this the wrong way Hollywood BQ, but what did you teach your child about US History over the years?

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This…. My parents would watch war movies from time to time and they would explain to us what was going on as kids .. I can remember watching various movies showing and talking about the Abomb and seeing those pictures over and over and over of that house getting blown up when they tested the Abomb… my dad explained that to us as to what was going on.. anyway, I'm not sure I learned any of that in school but most likely from watching war movies at home as a kid w my parents

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Dorm 15 said:

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Why Los Alamos?

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Oppenheimer lived in Albuquerque and thought the Sangre de Cristo mountains would be private and far enough removed to maintain the secrecy needed.

His idea.

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Wasn't their original operation in Chicago? How quickly did they move out there?

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Oppenheimer was a professor at Cal Berkeley

(probably the only good thing that ever came out of Berkeley other than the miracle college football "band" game")

He loved New Mexico which had something to do with wanting to move out there away from the eyes of citizens.

I went to Los Alamos when I first started with Commerce Department in 1998 but don't remember anything other than hot air balloons

HollywoodBQ said:

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Saw the movie tonight as my last hurrah at the AMC16 in downtown Burbank.

Since it was Barbenheimer day, saw lots of females and a surprisingly high number of males dressed up for the Barbie movie. Some of the folks really put a lot of effort into it.

One cool thing for the Barbie fans, they had a giant box you could stand in to take your picture like you're a Barbie Doll.

For a scientist based movie, I thought the sex scenes actually added to the story.
It was pretty wild seeing a lot of famous names referenced in the movie and they all seemed to know each other. I guess Quantum Physics is a small world.

Went to dinner after the show and discussed it with my daughter.
Basically we both had a lot of homework to do.

There were a couple of military insignia questions I had to look up.
I didn't recognize the Branch on an Army Officer's uniform and I didn't recognize his shoulder patch either.

Now here's the big shocker for me - and I felt like an idiot for not realizing it or figuring it out.

It never occurred to me that the original intent of "The Bomb" was to use it against Germany. Yes this seems obvious but I never really gave it much thought since it never happened.

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I don't think the spoiler tag is necessary, but I will be vague. That is the whole reason the program was started, as a reaction. And once that went away, some support for the program dried up. And going back to your OP, all the more why people should see this movie.

My daughter recently gave me the nickname "hairy monster with a tooty bottom."

She is 3, but I'll do my best to educate her on project manhattan.

If anyone reads the whole thread (I know, it's TexAgs, no one reads the thread, they just comment on the title) that's not a new spoiler, it's already been discussed.

Germany was the hotbed for research into theoretical physics. Lots of the scientists were Jewish. Most of them fled when Hitler came to power. And almost all joined the MP because they were terrified that Hitler would get an A Bomb first.

There was a big celebration at Los Alamos on VE Day, and lots of the scientists thought the program would be shut down as unnecessary. There was a small revolt when they realized it was going ahead, and now aimed at Japan

LMCane said:

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(probably the only good thing that ever came out of Berkeley other than the miracle college football "band" game")

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****oos egg is a good read. Read it as a teen with no preconceived ideas about Berkely. It wasnt until later that I realized Stoll was surrounded by dirty hippies

berkely unix is a pretty significant contribution to modern society and had some level of influence on just about every computing device currently sold

edit: this sites word filter is amazingly ****ty

85aggie777 said:

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My kids know quite a lot about him because their grandparents (my husband's parents) met when they were both stationed at Los Alamos when they were in the Army during WWII! My mother-in-law was in the WAC driver pool and drove several of the scientists and generals on and off the base (though never Oppenheimer). My father-in-law worked in administration and witnessed the first test explosion. They had great stories to tell.

They got married right after the war. I often tell people that my husband and sons wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for the creation of "the bomb!"

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great story

what's amazing is watching videos of the first test explosions

and the humans are not THAT far from the actual bomb going off

then in the 1950s the Army would literally send troops in gas masks TO WALK THROUGH terrain that had just been hit with a nuclear weapon to see what would happen.

only read half of this thread.

my brief thoughts:

I am not surprised a female doesn't know anything about history...as most females are doomed to repeat the same ill sighted actions over and over.

My 9 year old boy knows about oppenheimer, manhattan project, ww2, and can even tell you the windspan of a p51. My 6 year old boy knows about most of that too.

My 8 year old girl couldnt tell you a single military event other than her Uncle moving away for a few months (aka deployment.) Even her 12 year old cousin with the dad that deployed doesn't know jack.


Last - I have not watched the movie and hardly know anything of Oppenheimer other than who he was and generally what he did. That said, my assumption is that this movie only gained legs and funding b/c it was about a Jewish Man that was probably a communist. An entire Hollywood LBGQ - J think tank got together and said, how can we influence youth to buy tickets and come back hardcore liberal.


Personal opinion - flame away.

evestor1 said:

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only read half of this thread.

my brief thoughts:

I am not surprised a female doesn't know anything about history...as most females are doomed to repeat the same ill sighted actions over and over.

My 9 year old boy knows about oppenheimer, manhattan project, ww2, and can even tell you the windspan of a p51. My 6 year old boy knows about most of that too.

My 8 year old girl couldnt tell you a single military event other than her Uncle moving away for a few months (aka deployment.) Even her 12 year old cousin with the dad that deployed doesn't know jack.


Last - I have not watched the movie and hardly know anything of Oppenheimer other than who he was and generally what he did. That said, my assumption is that this movie only gained legs and funding b/c it was about a Jewish Man that was probably a communist. An entire Hollywood LBGQ - J think tank got together and said, how can we influence youth to buy tickets and come back hardcore liberal.


Personal opinion - flame away.

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Or not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/20/movies/christopher-nolan-oppenheimer.html

Or you could talk to your daughter about historical things. It's up to her whether she wants to retain that knowledge.

Just a thought.

CanyonAg77 said:

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There was a big celebration at Los Alamos on VE Day, and lots of the scientists thought the program would be shut down as unnecessary. There was a small revolt when they realized it was going ahead, and now aimed at Japan

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They covered that in the movie.
It was very interesting.

evestor1 said:

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generally what he did. That said, my assumption is that this movie only gained legs and funding b/c it was about a Jewish Man that was probably a communist. An entire Hollywood LBGQ - J think tank got together and said, how can we influence youth to buy tickets and come back hardcore liberal.


Personal opinion - flame away.

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Jewish themes, sure but nothing over the top, it was relevant to a biopic about a Jewish guy.

I thought the movie did a great job of showing how some idealistic younger, intelligent person could get caught up in associating with people socially who didn't have the best judgement.

Really that topic wouldn't be any different than me knowing, meeting, talking to people who were Confederate Hammerskins back in the late 1980s. Did I stop associating with my friend from my Boy Scout Troop because his little sister was handing it over to some White Supremacists? No. Was I approached by them to join? Yes. Did I support their cause, No.

I'm sure you've still got somebody in your circle that you haven't cutoff for being a Covidiot or a BLM bandwagon jumper. That was how I interpreted these academics from the 1930s. Same kind of stuff - jumping on the latest counter-culture trend without really thinking it through.

As far as the rest of the Hollywood not secret gay agenda, there was none of that in this movie.

The only sex in the movie was hetero. There were no secret closeted scientists profiled. No awkward hand touching or anything.

Other than the extended topless scenes due to them portraying Oppenheimer as a ladies man, this movie was pretty much modern social agenda free.