Purpose Driven Excommunication.

SantaLucia said:

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Marvin said:

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Does the SBC not have bigger issues to address? They will be surprised at all the non-Baptists in heaven...

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The SBC has spent more time on this than they have on stopping (or at least disciplining) the well-documented rape, child abuse and sexual grooming cases among their leaders and congregants.

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The OP's article states:

Quote:

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Saddleback's disfellowshipping came alongside the removal of several other churches from the denomination, one for issues related to sexual abuse, and four others who have a woman serving in the role of lead or senior pastor.

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So it's disingenuous to infer abuse is being overlooked.

Also there is no top down structure as previous posters have mentioned. A Baptist church can do what its leadership and members want in regards to female pastors. They'll just get kicked out of the convention and become independent Baptists.

Tramp96 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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Tramp96 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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NE PA Ag said:

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Evanhue said:

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Very interesting. We just left our church about a month ago over this very issue. Our pastor's wife was named "Executive Pastor" with full approval of the elders.

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I recall that the membership of SBC churches votes to install a pastor. Am I right about that and if so, did this not get put to a membership vote?

Also, what is an elder? Do you mean deacons?

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I served as a Deacon in 3 churches of Christ, and these are the requirements for Elders (leaders of the church) and Deacons (Servants of the Church)

Titus 1:5-9 English Standard Version

Qualifications for Elders (Men Only)
5 This is why I left you in Crete so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

1 Timothy 3 English Standard Version

Qualifications for Deacons (Men Only)
8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, and not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

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Actually, both passages are referring to the office of the pastor (minister, priest, etc.) I had a Lutheran pastor correct me on this when I told him I didn't feel qualified to be an elder in our church.

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I respectfully disagree; they are 2 different positions as defined by Paul to lead and serve the local church

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To our English knowledge, they appear to be two different positions. But apparently if you understand Greek language nuance and early church history, both passages refer to pastors of congregations. Since I never took Greek, I trust in the knowledge of those who have.

This is why Lutheran seminaries (and some other denominations as well) require their students to learn Greek and Hebrew.

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I remember asking my Luthern pastor a question about one of the parables and the meaning of a verb that had several meanings in English. Rather than give me a BS explanation on the spot, he told me he would have to check his Greek and get back to me. This was 25 years ago. An ELCA pastor today would probably just spout a bunch of social justice garbage.

Burdizzo said:

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Tramp96 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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Tramp96 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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NE PA Ag said:

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Evanhue said:

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Very interesting. We just left our church about a month ago over this very issue. Our pastor's wife was named "Executive Pastor" with full approval of the elders.

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I recall that the membership of SBC churches votes to install a pastor. Am I right about that and if so, did this not get put to a membership vote?

Also, what is an elder? Do you mean deacons?

---

I served as a Deacon in 3 churches of Christ, and these are the requirements for Elders (leaders of the church) and Deacons (Servants of the Church)

Titus 1:5-9 English Standard Version

Qualifications for Elders (Men Only)
5 This is why I left you in Crete so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

1 Timothy 3 English Standard Version

Qualifications for Deacons (Men Only)
8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, and not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

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Actually, both passages are referring to the office of the pastor (minister, priest, etc.) I had a Lutheran pastor correct me on this when I told him I didn't feel qualified to be an elder in our church.

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I respectfully disagree; they are 2 different positions as defined by Paul to lead and serve the local church

---

To our English knowledge, they appear to be two different positions. But apparently if you understand Greek language nuance and early church history, both passages refer to pastors of congregations. Since I never took Greek, I trust in the knowledge of those who have.

This is why Lutheran seminaries (and some other denominations as well) require their students to learn Greek and Hebrew.

---

I remember asking my Luthern pastor a question about one of the parables and the meaning of a verb that had several meanings in English. Rather than give me a BS explanation on the spot, he told me he would have to check his Greek and get back to me. This was 25 years ago. An ELCA pastor today would probably just spout a bunch of social justice garbage.

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Yeah the actual pastor who has actually studied Greek gave a good answer setting this guy straight. There is a clear distinction between pastors and deacons.

techno-ag said:

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Burdizzo said:

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Tramp96 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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Tramp96 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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NE PA Ag said:

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Evanhue said:

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Very interesting. We just left our church about a month ago over this very issue. Our pastor's wife was named "Executive Pastor" with full approval of the elders.

---

I recall that the membership of SBC churches votes to install a pastor. Am I right about that and if so, did this not get put to a membership vote?

Also, what is an elder? Do you mean deacons?

---

I served as a Deacon in 3 churches of Christ, and these are the requirements for Elders (leaders of the church) and Deacons (Servants of the Church)

Titus 1:5-9 English Standard Version

Qualifications for Elders (Men Only)
5 This is why I left you in Crete so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

1 Timothy 3 English Standard Version

Qualifications for Deacons (Men Only)
8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, and not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

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Actually, both passages are referring to the office of the pastor (minister, priest, etc.) I had a Lutheran pastor correct me on this when I told him I didn't feel qualified to be an elder in our church.

---

I respectfully disagree; they are 2 different positions as defined by Paul to lead and serve the local church

---

To our English knowledge, they appear to be two different positions. But apparently if you understand Greek language nuance and early church history, both passages refer to pastors of congregations. Since I never took Greek, I trust in the knowledge of those who have.

This is why Lutheran seminaries (and some other denominations as well) require their students to learn Greek and Hebrew.

---

I remember asking my Luthern pastor a question about one of the parables and the meaning of a verb that had several meanings in English. Rather than give me a BS explanation on the spot, he told me he would have to check his Greek and get back to me. This was 25 years ago. An ELCA pastor today would probably just spout a bunch of social justice garbage.

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Yeah the actual pastor who has actually studied Greek gave a good answer setting this guy straight. There is a clear distinction between pastors and deacons.

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In the pastor's defense, this was years ago and my memory isn't the best. It could be only one of those two passages that he was saying was referring to pastors and not to what WE call "elders". Don't discount what the pastor told me because of my poor memory.

Meanwhile...

I don’t know what’s going on at the SBC right now, but the Lutherans are discussing their preferred bourbon. pic.twitter.com/W4TrGeY0Y7

— Jen Gumbel (@jgumbel) June 15, 2023

Why are Baptists against making love while standing up?

Someone might think they are dancing.

Good for the SBC! Can't imagine a church trying to be an SBC church in California though. Can you imagine saying women can't be pastors in California? Most conservatives in California would be on the left of the scale in Texas and vote dem.

SuhrThang said:

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Why are Baptists against making love while standing up?

Someone might think they are dancing.

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Also no screwing while standing up for the same reason.

I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors. God bless them all (both sexes) for taking up the calling.

You guys carry on quibbling about doctrine and religion, and try not to sprain an ankle when you fall off your pedestal.

Tramp96 said:

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I'm a confessional Lutheran, and I've been following this through some Issues, Etc. podcasts.

IMO, this does belong in the politics forum because the issues at the heart of this are the political zeitgeist that have infiltrated Saddleback and caused Rick Warren to twist scripture in order to justify his positions, and now they want to spread it to the SBC as a whole.

Thank God for Al Mohler and the leadership of his seminary for fighting the good fight within the SBC and not allowing unbiblical doctrine to take root and fester....and eventually destroy.

Liberalism is a cancer, and it seeks to destroy everything by first infiltrating the institutions, and then playing the long game to slowly eat away at its foundation.

Now, the SBC still needs to get right with their view of what Baptism is and what it does, but THAT discussion does belong in R&P forum and not here.

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Agree with every word, including your signature at the bottom.

It's funny - the churches followed the same rules for about 1800 years, but Rick Warren knows they were all wrong and he was right.

Along with every other liberal.

ts5641 said:

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Good for the SBC! Can't imagine a church trying to be an SBC church in California though. Can you imagine saying women can't be pastors in California? Most conservatives in California would be on the left of the scale in Texas and vote dem.

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God's Truth is not a popularity contest. Even Jesus was despised and rejected by the world.

Marvin said:

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I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors.

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That's fine. They're acting against God's Word.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Marvin said:

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I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors.

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That's fine. They're acting against God's Word.

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Or they are doing what God called them to do- not for me to say. And it's a good thing you are not judging them for it, because ya know, that would be acting against God's word.

Marvin said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Marvin said:

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I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors.

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That's fine. They're acting against God's Word.

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Or they are doing what God called them to do- not for me to say. And it's a good thing you are not judging them for it, because ya know, that would be acting against God's word.

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It's a good thing we have a written record of Gods instructions to refer back to. That allows us to distinguish who is relying upon what feels right to them vs what the actual instructions actually were. Rick Warren is mainly concerned with worldly measures of success, like popularity. Unfortunately, he will go against scripture to gain favor with the fallen world.

Buck Turgidson said:

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Marvin said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Marvin said:

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I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors.

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That's fine. They're acting against God's Word.

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Or they are doing what God called them to do- not for me to say. And it's a good thing you are not judging them for it, because ya know, that would be acting against God's word.

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It's a good thing we have a written record of Gods instructions to refer back to. That allows us to distinguish who is relying upon what feels right to them vs what the actual instructions actually were. Rick Warren is mainly concerned with worldly measures of success, like popularity. Unfortunately, he will go against scripture to gain favor with the fallen world.

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DING DING DING DING

Buck Turgidson said:

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Marvin said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Marvin said:

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I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors.

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That's fine. They're acting against God's Word.

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Or they are doing what God called them to do- not for me to say. And it's a good thing you are not judging them for it, because ya know, that would be acting against God's word.

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It's a good thing we have a written record of Gods instructions to refer back to. That allows us to distinguish who is relying upon what feels right to them vs what the actual instructions actually were. Rick Warren is mainly concerned with worldly measures of success, like popularity. Unfortunately, he will go against scripture to gain favor with the fallen world.

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Jesus said to spread the good news. That's not going against the word of God, and I will bet anything that many, many women will lay more crowns at the throne that you can even imagine.

Enjoy dissecting doctrine and clinging to religious structure.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Marvin said:

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I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors.

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That's fine. They're acting against God's Word.

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2 Timothy 3:16-17
English Standard Version
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Marvin said:

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I know several female pastors that have done more to advance and expand the kingdom of God than many, many male elders and senior pastors. God bless them all (both sexes) for taking up the calling.

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I do too, but they are not SB. One of the wonderful things about different denominations is the ability to worship and serve God with others that interpret His Word in similar fashion. I doubt any is 100 percent correct.

2ndGen87 said:

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It's funny - the churches followed the same rules for about 1800 years, but Rick Warren knows they were all wrong and he was right.

Along with every other liberal.

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To be fair I think Warren has retired and this is his successor and his successor's wife. Warren has written a "can't we all get along" letter.

Again if you want to have female and/or gay pastors go right ahead. Just leave the Southern Baptist Convention and change the sign out front.

Strange: Female Pastor Gives Hellfire And Brimstone Sermon Once Every Month Or So https://t.co/MXXFj9a5M5 pic.twitter.com/hw2ZH4NpIW

— The Babylon Bee (@TheBabylonBee) June 14, 2023

I wish the UMC had been faithful enough to enforce their rules. Instead, they worried about offending anyone and offended many of us.