Trump indicted over classified documents

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aggiehawg
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 5:18p, 6/29/23
AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
Quote:
Which is why Ford opted to pardon him four months later, instead.
I think this is right and in accordance with what I just said above.

Ford (and others) had the foresight to recognize that fostering the criminal indictment of former presidents of the United States would devolve into the ****show that we see today.

But that's a bridge too far for most people on here.

TDS is a siren song drawing people into the unconstitutional abyss.
Even Agnew was not prosecuted after he resigned in 1973. Carter could have directed his AG to do so but refrained.
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fka ftc
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In reply to eric76 • 5:29p, 6/29/23
eric76 said:
fka ftc said:
aggiehawg said:
Quote:
Also, impeachment would not preclude criminal charges also being filed.
Think that trhough further. Impeachment does not preclude criminal charges becuase there is no double jeopardy attached to impeachment and removal from office. That says specifically that charges can be brought once out of office.


And he can claim executive immunity.

In other words, what authority would determine a POTUS is not allowed to claim executive immunity and has instead committed "high crimes and misdemeanors" against the US?
Wouldn't any executive immunity have to be related to his carrying out his official duties?

The President can't just claim that he has executive immunity for every possible action. It's trivial to come up with theoretical examples in when executive immunity would clearly not apply.


Correct. Now, who gets to decide if he was carrying out his duties?

For BMX Bandit, as I have explained before there is no precedent with this. Fords pardon was preemptive and prevented further litigation through impeachment then potential for criminal prosecution.
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fka ftc
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5:38p, 6/29/23
Folks really need to think about the real world application of the legal concepts they put forth.

So let's say sitting POTUS or even former POTUS can be criminally prosecuted by the Executive. Even with ignoring the concept that POTUS is the Executive Branch, let's consider a couple scenarios regarding Jan 6th criminal proceedings by current DOJ regarding FPOTUS Trump.

Who determines whether the FPOTUS was acting within his duties or not? No one in the current or former Executive can. Does SCOTUS? I don't see how they can decide. Recall the fight they officiated with Nixon was over providing information to another branch of government.

The only way to hold a POTUS, even a former one, accountable for actions taken whilst POTUS is to have them either waive that immunity, xor impeach and convict which invalidates the immunity.

Then you can proceed. But it should… it cannot be that a low level DOJ or even the AG nor the courts outside of maybe SCOTUS can determine if the FPOTUS was carrying out their duties.

I think SCOTUS would hear the dispute and direct Congress to impeach and convict FPOTUS before trying to prosecute crimes allegedly committed whilst POTUS.

Again, there is no precedent for this. Ford short circuited for the sake of the Country.

If we played out what others have posted, I dont see how you get through it without addressing all the other things think POTUS does that are wrong, like drone strikes and such.

Edit to Add: Think through if Trump is reelected November 2024. Does DOJ special counsel drop the cases for Jan 6th against Trump? Or does DOJ just hang out because some memo says you are not supposed to charge a sitting POTUS?

Is reelected Trump allowed to make any changes within the DOJ whilst these charges are on hold? Does this DOJ that Trump is barred from making changes to keep a crib sheet of further "crimes" they will investigate when 2028 rolls around? Can Trump appoint judges who may one day rule on these pent up charges? What about SCOTUS appointments who may hear an appeal on these cases? How does all that work?

The only way it works to charge a sitting or former POTUS with crimes allegedly committed whilst in office is through impeachment, conviction by Senate, referral over to DOJ with the understanding POTUS has been removed from office and disqualified from holding further office. Its not that there is not a process that can be followed. Its right there for everyone to follow and consistent with the several precedents even remotely related to these circumstances have shown.
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eric76
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In reply to aggiehawg • 8:53p, 6/29/23
AG
aggiehawg said:
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
Quote:
Which is why Ford opted to pardon him four months later, instead.
I think this is right and in accordance with what I just said above.

Ford (and others) had the foresight to recognize that fostering the criminal indictment of former presidents of the United States would devolve into the ****show that we see today.

But that's a bridge too far for most people on here.

TDS is a siren song drawing people into the unconstitutional abyss.
Even Agnew was not prosecuted after he resigned in 1973. Carter could have directed his AG to do so but refrained.
I may be wrong, my my recollection is that Spiro T Agnew had a deal where he would avoid prosecution by resigning and pleading guilty to a single charge and paying a fine to settle that charge, but no jail time. Is that not the case?

Once such a deal in place and everything has completed, is it that easy to go back and prosecute?

Maybe there was something the plea agreement failed to cover.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to fka ftc • 8:54p, 6/29/23
AG
fka ftc said:
eric76 said:
fka ftc said:
aggiehawg said:
Quote:
Also, impeachment would not preclude criminal charges also being filed.
Think that trhough further. Impeachment does not preclude criminal charges becuase there is no double jeopardy attached to impeachment and removal from office. That says specifically that charges can be brought once out of office.
And he can claim executive immunity.

In other words, what authority would determine a POTUS is not allowed to claim executive immunity and has instead committed "high crimes and misdemeanors" against the US?
Wouldn't any executive immunity have to be related to his carrying out his official duties?

The President can't just claim that he has executive immunity for every possible action. It's trivial to come up with theoretical examples in when executive immunity would clearly not apply.
Correct. Now, who gets to decide if he was carrying out his duties?
Breaking my own advice here, but oh well.

"Related to his duties" is a civil lawsuit immunity concept. A current and former President is immune from civil lawsuits if they were carrying out their official duties. And the answer to your question is the Courts decide if he was carrying out his duties. That's well litigated and Courts have performed that role many times.
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eric76
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In reply to fka ftc • 8:57p, 6/29/23
AG
fka ftc said:
Folks really need to think about the real world application of the legal concepts they put forth.

So let's say sitting POTUS or even former POTUS can be criminally prosecuted by the Executive. Even with ignoring the concept that POTUS is the Executive Branch, let's consider a couple scenarios regarding Jan 6th criminal proceedings by current DOJ regarding FPOTUS Trump.

Who determines whether the FPOTUS was acting within his duties or not? No one in the current or former Executive can. Does SCOTUS? I don't see how they can decide. Recall the fight they officiated with Nixon was over providing information to another branch of government.

The only way to hold a POTUS, even a former one, accountable for actions taken whilst POTUS is to have them either waive that immunity, xor impeach and convict which invalidates the immunity.

Then you can proceed. But it should… it cannot be that a low level DOJ or even the AG nor the courts outside of maybe SCOTUS can determine if the FPOTUS was carrying out their duties.

I think SCOTUS would hear the dispute and direct Congress to impeach and convict FPOTUS before trying to prosecute crimes allegedly committed whilst POTUS.

Again, there is no precedent for this. Ford short circuited for the sake of the Country.

If we played out what others have posted, I dont see how you get through it without addressing all the other things think POTUS does that are wrong, like drone strikes and such.

Edit to Add: Think through if Trump is reelected November 2024. Does DOJ special counsel drop the cases for Jan 6th against Trump? Or does DOJ just hang out because some memo says you are not supposed to charge a sitting POTUS?

Is reelected Trump allowed to make any changes within the DOJ whilst these charges are on hold? Does this DOJ that Trump is barred from making changes to keep a crib sheet of further "crimes" they will investigate when 2028 rolls around? Can Trump appoint judges who may one day rule on these pent up charges? What about SCOTUS appointments who may hear an appeal on these cases? How does all that work?

The only way it works to charge a sitting or former POTUS with crimes allegedly committed whilst in office is through impeachment, conviction by Senate, referral over to DOJ with the understanding POTUS has been removed from office and disqualified from holding further office. Its not that there is not a process that can be followed. Its right there for everyone to follow and consistent with the several precedents even remotely related to these circumstances have shown.
An impeachment is solely about removal from office and sometimes, but not always, from holding a future office. Nothing more.

And you cannot impeach a former President. Once he is no longer President, he cannot be impeached. After all, he is no longer in office and the entire point of an impeachment would be to remove him from office.

So it seems silly to think that to prosecute a former President you have to impeach him first.
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TXAggie2011
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8:58p, 6/29/23
AG
To be clear, Ford did not "short circuit" Nixon's impeachment. Nixon's resignation short circuited his impeachment. The pardon power does not and can not touch impeachments.
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eric76
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 9:01p, 6/29/23
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
To be clear, Ford did not "short circuit" Nixon's impeachment. Nixon's resignation short circuited his impeachment. The pardon power does not and can not touch impeachments.
Exactly. Once he resigned, impeachment was off the table. The fact that he was a former President would not have protected him from prosecution, but the pardon did.
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boboguitar
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 9:18p, 6/29/23
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
Well...

"Prosecutors are prepared to hit Trump and his allies with new charges, sources say"


There was a rumor that Guiliani was the one facilitating the pay for pardon scheme. Will be interesting if that comes up.
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LMCane
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2:47a, 6/30/23
Trump 2024 aide who allegedly saw classified map works for China lobbying firm
By Josh Christenson
June 29, 2023 3:47pm Updated

Biden's special envoy for Iran 'on leave' after possibly mishandling classified documents

Trump loses bid to toss out E. Jean Carroll's original defamation suit over rape claim

Three charged with insider trading tied to merger with Donald Trump's Truth Social parent company

A top Trump campaign adviser who apparently was shown classified documents by the former president has a top post at a lobbying firm serving Chinese entities that potentially pose a national security threat and help Beijing commit human rights abuses.

Susie Wiles works on Donald Trump's 2024 campaign and is co-chair of Mercury Public Affairs, which has taken millions of dollars in recent years from Chinese companies such as Yealink, Hikvision and Alibaba.

Wiles, a veteran of several GOP campaigns including Ron DeSantis' 2018 run for Florida governor, has also been identified as one of several people to whom the 45th president allegedly revealed sensitive material, ABC News reported late Wednesday.

According to a 37-count indictment brought earlier this month by Special Counsel Jack Smith, a "PAC representative" reportedly Wiles visited the 77-year-old ex-president at his Bedminster, NJ, golf club in August or September 2021 and was improperly shown a classified map of a foreign nation.
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fka ftc
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 8:14a, 6/30/23
TXAggie2011 said:
To be clear, Ford did not "short circuit" Nixon's impeachment. Nixon's resignation short circuited his impeachment. The pardon power does not and can not touch impeachments.


I did not say the pardon had anything to do with whether they could impeach. It short circuited the process of impeachment, conviction by senate, and THEN criminal prosecution.

There is no precedent for using impeachment process after a POTUS has left office, but it is generally considered it can be done as evidenced as recently as the Jan 6th impeachment of Trump.

If you kids want to prove me wrong, have at it. But at least get your facts right and do some research.

Executive immunity is not a civil concept. It's what allows POTUS to carry out his official duties without every knucklehead DA trying to charge a POTUS for any number of "crimes".

I am happy to leave this where it is, and we can move to another thread with your specific questions regarding the Constitution and separation of powers and other concepts.
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Robert L. Peters
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8:17a, 6/30/23
Just the pic of Jack Smith sends shivers down my spine. He looks like some prosecutor out of a Russian novel.

I don't know if trump gets scared, but this guy is hellbent (and has been charged accordingly) to have trump die in prison. He should be scared.

Other prosecutors have multiple cases and limited resources. This guy has the federal government and the media at his disposal. And only one case.
What you say, Paper Champion? I'm gonna beat you like a dog, a dog, you hear me!
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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9:37a, 6/30/23
Quote:
Other prosecutors have multiple cases and limited resources. This guy has the federal government and the media at his disposal. And only one case.
So Jack Smith is to Donald Trump as Anthony Fauci was to Covid.

Anyone want to argue with that analogy?
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agz win
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In reply to LMCane • 12:54p, 6/30/23
AG
LMCane said:
Trump 2024 aide who allegedly saw classified map works for China lobbying firm
By Josh Christenson
June 29, 2023 3:47pm Updated

Biden's special envoy for Iran 'on leave' after possibly mishandling classified documents

Trump loses bid to toss out E. Jean Carroll's original defamation suit over rape claim

Three charged with insider trading tied to merger with Donald Trump's Truth Social parent company

A top Trump campaign adviser who apparently was shown classified documents by the former president has a top post at a lobbying firm serving Chinese entities that potentially pose a national security threat and help Beijing commit human rights abuses.

Susie Wiles works on Donald Trump's 2024 campaign and is co-chair of Mercury Public Affairs, which has taken millions of dollars in recent years from Chinese companies such as Yealink, Hikvision and Alibaba.

Wiles, a veteran of several GOP campaigns including Ron DeSantis' 2018 run for Florida governor, has also been identified as one of several people to whom the 45th president allegedly revealed sensitive material, ABC News reported late Wednesday.

According to a 37-count indictment brought earlier this month by Special Counsel Jack Smith, a "PAC representative" reportedly Wiles visited the 77-year-old ex-president at his Bedminster, NJ, golf club in August or September 2021 and was improperly shown a classified map of a foreign nation.

Susie Wiles has to be having a really bad day.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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4:31p, 6/30/23
Slow Trump day but I bet they got somethin' real special cooked up for us week after 4th of July.
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will25u
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9:15p, 6/30/23
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ShaggySLC
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In reply to will25u • 9:46p, 6/30/23
will25u said:
After 7 years and changing laws, they for sure have him now. Ready for the fight to start. It's coming eventually.
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will25u
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11:42p, 6/30/23
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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11:52p, 6/30/23
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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4:10p, 7/1/23

Quote:
Supreme Court Justice Alexandre de Moraes, the president of the electoral court, said the verdict Friday would "confirm our faith in democracy" and "our degree of repulsion toward the shameful populism that has been reborn from flames of hateful and anti-democratic speech and statements that propagate disgraceful disinformation."
In the wet dreams of every TDS'er.

Nothing confirms our faith in democracy more than jailing political opponents and banning them from running for office.
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will25u
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10:00a, 7/3/23
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DallasAg03
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In reply to boboguitar • 10:41a, 7/3/23
AG
boboguitar said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Well...

"Prosecutors are prepared to hit Trump and his allies with new charges, sources say"


There was a rumor that Guiliani was the one facilitating the pay for pardon scheme. Will be interesting if that comes up.
Ken Paxton was in DC on January 6th trying to get a last minute pardon from Trump....
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Im Gipper
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10:49a, 7/3/23
Pardoned for a "crime" Biden has hasn't even charged him with?

I'm Gipper
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Bryanisbest
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11:10a, 7/3/23
AG
"We got 'im now" to the 15th power
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oysterbayAG
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12:29p, 7/3/23
AG
OK, just use probability and common sense. Do you think that Joe Biden and his family members are the only ones in Washington DC that are using these financial schemes, shenanigans and gymnastics in order to bribe,extort and absonce laundered, illegal income, without paying required taxes, from entities throughout the world, by using a large amount of phony shell companies and offshore bank accounts, for no services rendered, except for peddling nefarious favors to corrupt foreigners ? At the very least, this is a " Conspiracy against the United States ", a serious felony. Trump would be smart to hire a top Investigative Law Firm to track down any other corrupt characters in DC, regardless of Party, to expose similar malfeasance,which could be pervasive. I can't imagine that the Bidens created this " Modus Operandi " for financial corruption. Maybe this stuff is typically all covered up because so many have so much dirt on each other and they had to create dirt on Trump because he is clean.
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fka ftc
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3:59p, 7/3/23
Truth, honesty and the execution of justice no longer matters to 81 million "voters" and their concerned, moderated friends and suburban housewives.

That want to live on Wisteria Ln in their bubble and deny the truth staring them in the face. That the polished politicians they continue to support are the good guys and some already famous, already wealthy, billionaire family man with kids who love him, who loves America is the actual bad guy.

To hate on Trump is to hate America and everything our Country is about. People should think harder, be better.
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Whistle Pig
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In reply to fka ftc • 1:00a, 7/4/23
Quote:
To hate on Trump is to hate America and everything our Country is about.


Definitely not a cult.
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fka ftc
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In reply to Whistle Pig • 3:48a, 7/4/23
Whistle Pig said:
Quote:
To hate on Trump is to hate America and everything our Country is about.


Definitely not a cult.


Is that supposed to be an insult? I would stack up behind Trump and loving America vs worshipping the Biden Crime Family, baby-killing, job eroding, Country weakening, society destroying smut, lies and debauchery the cult of the left / libs is.

Currently, our freedoms allow me to support Trump and love America. The ideals of Biden, Obama and similar ilk seek to undermine that freedom, paint those who have pride in our Country as extreme MAGA racists, and want to apologize and grovel to a minute percentage of the world and population who HATE America and all it stands for.

That sick, twisted behavior is much more akin to a cult than having pride in the USA.
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aggiehawg
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2:32p, 7/5/23
AG
Quote:
Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart approved new aspects of the Trump Mar-a-Lago search warrant to be unsealed.

Last August the Biden Justice Department released a highly redacted Trump raid affidavit.
President Trump Bruce Reinhart following the release of the document saying, "Judge Bruce Reinhart should NEVER have allowed the Break-In of my home. He recused himself two months ago from one of my cases based on his animosity and hatred of your favorite President, me. What changed? Why hasn't he recused himself on this case?"

Media organizations asked to unseal the affidavit in support of the search warrant.
Hope we finally get to see that.

Spoke too soon.
Quote:
"The Government agreed that a redacted version of the Response could be unsealed without compromising legitimate governmental interests," Bruce Reinhart wrote in his order on motion to unseal.

The entire affidavit will not be unsealed.
LINK
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fka ftc
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In reply to aggiehawg • 4:45p, 7/5/23
He Cult of Deep State has no bounds at all.

It's not legal, it's not justice, it's simply not how this Country was intended to be.

I have been inspired by the Irish to throw off the tyranny of the Brits which has lasted well into the 20th century and really still to this day, particularly with the northern counties.

It's going to take an actual rebellion to stop what the dem/libs/RINOs/DeepState have started. I only pray our Countrymen and Countrywomen have the resolve to see it through.

What is being inflicted on Trump is utter tyranny, political oppression. It's disgusting.
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will25u
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6:58p, 7/6/23

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aggiehawg
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In reply to will25u • 7:03p, 7/6/23
AG
will25u said:

Those better be for surveillance tapes, not documents. Docs are long gone.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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7:03p, 7/6/23
When your name is Donald Trump, the wheel of justice turns at lightning speed.
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aggiehawg
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 7:05p, 7/6/23
AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
When your name is Donald Trump, the wheel of justice turns at lightning speed.
Did you mean that thumbs up?
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eric76
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 7:06p, 7/6/23
AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
When your name is Donald Trump, the wheel of justice turns at lightning speed.
Wasn't it Judge Cannon who set the date?
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