Quote:

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Make no rational sense why someone would handle this issue the way Trump has handled it thus far.

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Tell me you don't understand 4D chess without saying you don't undertand 4D chess.

Rapier108 said:

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FireAg said:

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If Ds are secretly pushing for Trump to be the R nominee, why do they keep trying to falsely imprison him?

Makes no sense…

They know they can't steal the election the same way twice…

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The indictments are designed to bolster his support for the primary.

If he wins the primary, then they will drop the hammer.

They want him in prison or dead, but they need to make sure the weakest candidate is the Republican nominee first.

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I have always thought they were dying for him to be the nominee because there is no way in hell he could win.

eric76 said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Donald Trump has been the subject of more litigation than any human to have ever walked the face of the earth.

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Where there is smoke, there is fire. Right?

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Guilty till proven innocent...

You've come a long way, eric...

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Trump's handling of this whole situation is like lifting up a piece of tin just to see if there is a snake under there.

And Guess what? There was.

In the form of a 37-count federal indictment.

So why would you do that?

Why would Trump intentionally bring more grief on himself by ****ing around with cardboard boxes of documents.

Theres not point to this controversy. That's all I'm trying to say.

It's conflict for the sake of conflict.

---

Exactly this. There are a million analogies that could apply.

pulling up next to a cop at a light and squealing tires when the light turns green.

Going 110 miles an hour.

Ignoring a speeding ticket, then ignoring a failure to appear citation.

Repeatedly skipping classes at high school.

It's almost as if he grew up a spoiled brat millionaire and never had anyone really stand up to him in his life.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Dragging around cardboard boxes of crap from you old job. And storing cardboard boxes crap all around the house.

This might be the most boomer crime ever committed.

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you're missing the forest for the trees, bud. Cut trump out of the picture and look at what they're trying.

Like I've said frequently: the (D) DOJ was obsessed with whether they could. They never thought about whether they should.

ETA: Trump himself
Knew better with Obama and biden. Hell, even Hillary.

---

It's wild man. An absolutely wild course of events. It's intentional cahos.

In any reasonable word they would have negotiated the return of the boxes and that would be the end of it.

What we are seeing here is something extra.

God only knows what's going on here.

Maybe the judge dismisses the case for the good of all parties involved. It makes no sense to prosecute this case.

---

God only knows what's going on here?

That's pretty obvious. The left is trying to completely destroy the man. Same thing they've been doing for 6 years now. It's constant. And guess what? This isn't the end of it. They'll start on DeSantis if he wins the nomination. We're witnessing corruption in the government at its finest. This has happened throughout history and Americans haven't seen it first hand and for that reason many can't process that or refuse to.

The "no electronic devices" used to be SOP on Rusk St. in very early 21st Century. You would have to drop tape recorders and phones into a bin and pick it up on your way out. Those that attended Court regularly there knew to leave that stuff in the car or at the office.

Im Gipper said:

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The "no electronic devices" used to be SOP on Rusk St. in very early 21st Century. You would have to drop tape recorders and phones into a bin and pick it up on your way out. Those that attended Court regularly there knew to leave that stuff in the car or at the office.

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my favorite was Bankr. S.D.N.Y. Until about 10 years ago. Non attorneys were hosed. Attorneys could hand their cell phone over to the security officers for a claim check. Also liked Bankr. W.D. La. When you showed the security officers your bar card, they'd walk you around the metal detector.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Of all the political hit jobs that Trump has been subjected to since 2015. One thing is clear to me on this one …

Trump 100% brought this upon himself.

This whole case is absolutely senseless. You'd have to sign up for Onlyfans to find someone that could **** themselves as hard Trump has in this case.

The whole thing is so stupid and senseless that it's incredulous.

It's the worst episode of NCIS: Miami that you've ever seen.

Trump here was like Mike Tyson not respecting Buster Douglas.

Trump f'ed around and got popped.

So now out of all the problems we got in the world, we focused on this stupid ass case.

Tump's ego might have finally written a check his ass cant cash.

But we'll see.

---

A few questions for the board, though.

Prior to the PRA going into effect in 1978, did not all documents under the perview of a POTUS belong to the FPOTUS?

In other words, without the PRA, would this indictment still be valid?

Answer this one, and then I'll have a follow up.

Quote:

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Prior to the PRA going into effect in 1978, did not all documents under the perview of a POTUS belong to the FPOTUS?

In other words, without the PRA, would this indictment still be valid?

Answer this one, and then I'll have a follow up.

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Yes, they were the property of the FPOTUS.

PRA was passed and signed by Carter in 1978 but didn't go into effect until Reagan was in office.

will25u said:

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The democrats get away with it because they, along with their MSM henchmen have brainwashed a majority of the populace that Trump is horrible.

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Trump did a pretty good job of that himself when he said that he likes to grab women by their hoo-hahs and is able to get away with it because he's a star.

If my aunt had wheels, would she be a bicycle?

The law was the law. He knew it was the law and just choose to ignore it. That's so arrogant/dumb. Now we have to go through this stupid trial, just because of his enormous ego. If he'd have turned over the boxes after he was first asked, or even after he got the grand jury subpoena, there would be no criminal case.

All he had to say is, "sorry, here you go."

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Prior to the PRA going into effect in 1978, did not all documents under the perview of a POTUS belong to the FPOTUS?

In other words, without the PRA, would this indictment still be valid?

Answer this one, and then I'll have a follow up.

---

Yes, they were the property of the FPOTUS.

PRA was passed and signed by Carter in 1978 but didn't go into effect until Reagan was in office.

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Before open container laws were passed, I could drive around and drink a beer. What's your point? Trump is above the law? Trump is our King?

A question was posed to the board. So I answered it. Period.

Mondemonium said:

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If my aunt had wheels, would she be a bicycle?

The law was the law. He knew it was the law and just choose to ignore it. That's so arrogant/dumb. Now we have to go through this stupid trial, just because of his enormous ego. If he'd have turned over the boxes after he was first asked, or even after he got the grand jury subpoena, there would be no criminal case.

All he had to say is, "sorry, here you go."

---

And hypothetically he could have made copies, given back the originals with investigators none the wiser…

Mondemonium's attempt at derail notwithstanding, here's my follow up:

As I understand the situation, there is necesarilly a time required in which the Archivist of NARA and the EOP have to determine what is Presidential, and what is Personal. Members of an outgoing administration have days to get everything packed and out. Naturally, Presidential and Personal records will be comingled.

PRA desginates that a NARA "holding factility" be designated to house the records, but looking a recent precedent, the fact that Biden and Pence as VPs had boxes of records as well that contained classified documents indicates that there is not a difinitive process has been normally followed.

So my questions are:
1. Why did not NARA and/or the Biden administration have a facility designated to transport records to? And is this even a thing? What happened to the boxes of records under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, & Obama while Personal records were being sorted from Presidential records.

2. Was it not Biden/NARA that originally authorized sending the docs to MAL?

(I would argue that the first Bush presidency might provide the only comparable example as GHWB was the only one-term president who had run for re-election and lost.) Were Bush's records sent to A&M? I do know that the library was not built yet. I'm not even sure ground was broken. So where did they go?

To me, these are the driving factors of whether this indictment holds water. To Mondemonium's derail, it is an inane argument to assert that Trump should have had to turn over all his Personal records along with Presidential records to avoid prosecution. And this is not about drinking a Beer. It's an administrative, process dispute that has been conflated to a crime for political purposes. Everyone knows it. Half the country is willing to admit it.

jrdaustin said:

---

Mondemonium's attempt at derail notwithstanding, here's my follow up:

As I understand the situation, there is necesarilly a time required in which the Archivist of NARA and the EOP have to determine what is Presidential, and what is Personal. Members of an outgoing administration have days to get everything packed and out. Naturally, Presidential and Personal records will be comingled.

PRA desginates that a NARA "holding factility" be designated to house the records, but looking a recent precedent, the fact that Biden and Pence as VPs had boxes of records as well that contained classified documents indicates that there is not a difinitive process has been normally followed.

So my questions are:
1. Why did not NARA and/or the Biden administration have a facility designated to transport records to? And is this even a thing? What happened to the boxes of records under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, & Obama while Personal records were being sorted from Presidential records.

2. Was it not Biden/NARA that originally authorized sending the docs to MAL?

(I would argue that the first Bush presidency might provide the only comparable example as GHWB was the only one-term president who had run for re-election and lost.) Were Bush's records sent to A&M? I do know that the library was not built yet. I'm not even sure ground was broken. So where did they go?

To me, these are the driving factors of whether this indictment holds water. To Mondemonium's derail, it is an inane argument to assert that Trump should have had to turn over all his Personal records along with Presidential records to avoid prosecution. And this is not about drinking a Beer. It's an administrative, process dispute that has been conflated to a crime for political purposes. Everyone knows it. Half the country is willing to admit it.

---

Two term Presidents have the benefit of additional time to finalize preliminary arrangements to start fundraising for their presidential libraries, inclding scouting locations. NARA then has the ability to also scout for housing locations nearby and coordinate with the GSA to secure them for temporary housing of the records so that the FPOTUS has access to them. He then sorts through what he wants for his library (which although must be privately funded) will be run by NARA.

And yes, GHW Bush's records were housed in College Station well before his library was even under construction.

jrdaustin said:

---

Mondemonium's attempt at derail notwithstanding, here's my follow up:

As I understand the situation, there is necesarilly a time required in which the Archivist of NARA and the EOP have to determine what is Presidential, and what is Personal. Members of an outgoing administration have days to get everything packed and out. Naturally, Presidential and Personal records will be comingled.

PRA desginates that a NARA "holding factility" be designated to house the records, but looking a recent precedent, the fact that Biden and Pence as VPs had boxes of records as well that contained classified documents indicates that there is not a difinitive process has been normally followed.

So my questions are:
1. Why did not NARA and/or the Biden administration have a facility designated to transport records to? And is this even a thing? What happened to the boxes of records under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, & Obama while Personal records were being sorted from Presidential records.

2. Was it not Biden/NARA that originally authorized sending the docs to MAL?

(I would argue that the first Bush presidency might provide the only comparable example as GHWB was the only one-term president who had run for re-election and lost.) Were Bush's records sent to A&M? I do know that the library was not built yet. I'm not even sure ground was broken. So where did they go?

To me, these are the driving factors of whether this indictment holds water. To Mondemonium's derail, it is an inane argument to assert that Trump should have had to turn over all his Personal records along with Presidential records to avoid prosecution. And this is not about drinking a Beer. It's an administrative, process dispute that has been conflated to a crime for political purposes. Everyone knows it. Half the country is willing to admit it.

---

From election day to inauguration is 2+ months. Did they even start sorting or were they too focused on the "stop the steal" campaign that Trump is on reportedly on record as knowing was untrue?

Same for Obama. His records were housed in a secured warehouse in the Chicago area. There's process to be followed, and it seems in Trump's case no one really thought much about it, so documents that shouldn't have been comingled ended up being mixed up. At the end of the day, it's the President's staff's responsibility to go through things and make sure what is a personal record is retained and what is a presidential record is turned over. ETA: And, most importantly, if you find something you shouldn't have, you turn it over immediately.

FishrCoAg said:

---

Mondemonium said:

---

If my aunt had wheels, would she be a bicycle?

The law was the law. He knew it was the law and just choose to ignore it. That's so arrogant/dumb. Now we have to go through this stupid trial, just because of his enormous ego. If he'd have turned over the boxes after he was first asked, or even after he got the grand jury subpoena, there would be no criminal case.

All he had to say is, "sorry, here you go."

---

And hypothetically he could have made copies, given back the originals with investigators none the wiser…

---

also, how do they account for what he simply knows?

To answer one of the first questions, a search found a "fact check" "debunking" one of Trumps earlier claims that GHWB had kept his documents at a bowling alley/chinese restaurant.

The fact check refuted his statement by saying that NARA had designated a building that had once been the aforementioned bowling alley/chinese restaurant (I assume in College Station) as the transitional depository for all of GHWB's records while the library was being built. I'm guessing the deliniation of Personal vs. Presidential records occurred over the next ? number of years both at the temporary location, and the library once it was built.

Which brings us to Trump.

The fact that all of those boxes were a MAL in the first place indicates that NARA/Biden Admin initially designated MAL as the temporary holding facility for ALL of Trump's records; or, simply dropped the ball and didn't designate anything, only to later raise an issue because an opportunity presented itself.

Trump has definitely not helped himself in this debacle, but I'm having a very hard time seeing the criminality narrative that is being pushed.

That's not true. NARA keeps his records in the DC area. https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001

FishrCoAg said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

Mondemonium's attempt at derail notwithstanding, here's my follow up:

As I understand the situation, there is necesarilly a time required in which the Archivist of NARA and the EOP have to determine what is Presidential, and what is Personal. Members of an outgoing administration have days to get everything packed and out. Naturally, Presidential and Personal records will be comingled.

PRA desginates that a NARA "holding factility" be designated to house the records, but looking a recent precedent, the fact that Biden and Pence as VPs had boxes of records as well that contained classified documents indicates that there is not a difinitive process has been normally followed.

So my questions are:
1. Why did not NARA and/or the Biden administration have a facility designated to transport records to? And is this even a thing? What happened to the boxes of records under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, & Obama while Personal records were being sorted from Presidential records.

2. Was it not Biden/NARA that originally authorized sending the docs to MAL?

(I would argue that the first Bush presidency might provide the only comparable example as GHWB was the only one-term president who had run for re-election and lost.) Were Bush's records sent to A&M? I do know that the library was not built yet. I'm not even sure ground was broken. So where did they go?

To me, these are the driving factors of whether this indictment holds water. To Mondemonium's derail, it is an inane argument to assert that Trump should have had to turn over all his Personal records along with Presidential records to avoid prosecution. And this is not about drinking a Beer. It's an administrative, process dispute that has been conflated to a crime for political purposes. Everyone knows it. Half the country is willing to admit it.

---

From election day to inauguration is 2+ months. Did they even start sorting or were they too focused on the "stop the steal" campaign that Trump is on reportedly on record as knowing was untrue?

---

My guess is no. Up until Jan 6th, I think Trump believed that the election was fraudulent and that his presidency would continue. If that's the case, then the WH had 14 days to prepare to vacate. Basically, just enough time to throw everything into boxes and sort it out later.

Not the smartest thing to do, but hardly criminal.

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

Mondemonium's attempt at derail notwithstanding, here's my follow up:

As I understand the situation, there is necesarilly a time required in which the Archivist of NARA and the EOP have to determine what is Presidential, and what is Personal. Members of an outgoing administration have days to get everything packed and out. Naturally, Presidential and Personal records will be comingled.

PRA desginates that a NARA "holding factility" be designated to house the records, but looking a recent precedent, the fact that Biden and Pence as VPs had boxes of records as well that contained classified documents indicates that there is not a difinitive process has been normally followed.

So my questions are:
1. Why did not NARA and/or the Biden administration have a facility designated to transport records to? And is this even a thing? What happened to the boxes of records under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, & Obama while Personal records were being sorted from Presidential records.

2. Was it not Biden/NARA that originally authorized sending the docs to MAL?

(I would argue that the first Bush presidency might provide the only comparable example as GHWB was the only one-term president who had run for re-election and lost.) Were Bush's records sent to A&M? I do know that the library was not built yet. I'm not even sure ground was broken. So where did they go?

To me, these are the driving factors of whether this indictment holds water. To Mondemonium's derail, it is an inane argument to assert that Trump should have had to turn over all his Personal records along with Presidential records to avoid prosecution. And this is not about drinking a Beer. It's an administrative, process dispute that has been conflated to a crime for political purposes. Everyone knows it. Half the country is willing to admit it.

---

From election day to inauguration is 2+ months. Did they even start sorting or were they too focused on the "stop the steal" campaign that Trump is on reportedly on record as knowing was untrue?

---

My guess is no. Up until Jan 6th, I think Trump believed that the election was fraudulent and that his presidency would continue. If that's the case, then the WH had 14 days to prepare to vacate. Basically, just enough time to throw everything into boxes and sort it out later.

Not the smartest thing to do, but hardly criminal.

---

Unless you are required by law to have it done…

Quote:

---

The fact that all of those boxes were a MAL in the first place indicates that NARA/Biden Admin initially designated MAL as the temporary holding facility for ALL of Trump's records; or, simply dropped the ball and didn't designate anything, only to later raise an issue because an opportunity presented itself.

---

And they asked for additional locks to be placed on the storage locations there, which Trump did. He was cooperating, negotiating with them, even returning 15 boxes.

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

Mondemonium's attempt at derail notwithstanding, here's my follow up:

As I understand the situation, there is necesarilly a time required in which the Archivist of NARA and the EOP have to determine what is Presidential, and what is Personal. Members of an outgoing administration have days to get everything packed and out. Naturally, Presidential and Personal records will be comingled.

PRA desginates that a NARA "holding factility" be designated to house the records, but looking a recent precedent, the fact that Biden and Pence as VPs had boxes of records as well that contained classified documents indicates that there is not a difinitive process has been normally followed.

So my questions are:
1. Why did not NARA and/or the Biden administration have a facility designated to transport records to? And is this even a thing? What happened to the boxes of records under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, & Obama while Personal records were being sorted from Presidential records.

2. Was it not Biden/NARA that originally authorized sending the docs to MAL?

(I would argue that the first Bush presidency might provide the only comparable example as GHWB was the only one-term president who had run for re-election and lost.) Were Bush's records sent to A&M? I do know that the library was not built yet. I'm not even sure ground was broken. So where did they go?

To me, these are the driving factors of whether this indictment holds water. To Mondemonium's derail, it is an inane argument to assert that Trump should have had to turn over all his Personal records along with Presidential records to avoid prosecution. And this is not about drinking a Beer. It's an administrative, process dispute that has been conflated to a crime for political purposes. Everyone knows it. Half the country is willing to admit it.

---

From election day to inauguration is 2+ months. Did they even start sorting or were they too focused on the "stop the steal" campaign that Trump is on reportedly on record as knowing was untrue?

---

My guess is no. Up until Jan 6th, I think Trump believed that the election was fraudulent and that his presidency would continue. If that's the case, then the WH had 14 days to prepare to vacate. Basically, just enough time to throw everything into boxes and sort it out later.

Not the smartest thing to do, but hardly criminal.

---

Definitely not criminal. And it's also why Pence isn't being charged, because his staff found documents, said my bad, and gave them back.

But, they should have gone through everything and turned over everything that didn't belong to him. That's the baffling thing about all this. Either no one did this on accident, or there's willful defiance going on. And if it's the latter, up to DOJ having to get a warrant to get everything back, well, that's why Trump finds himself in the situation he's in.

HTownAg98 said:

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That's not true. NARA keeps his records in the DC area. https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001

---

Interesting. Thanks for the Link. Lots of good reading there.

Upon first glance, this stood out...

"Prior to the end of his administration, President Trump did not communicate any intent to NARA with regard to funding, building, endowing, and donating a Presidential Library to NARA under the Presidential Libraries Act. Accordingly, the Trump Presidential records have been and continue to be maintained by NARA in the Washington, DC, area, and there was no reason for NARA to consider a temporary facility in Florida or elsewhere."

I'm going to read through the rest of their statements before commenting, but I'll say that something definitely smells off.

jrdaustin said:

---

To answer one of the first questions, a search found a "fact check" "debunking" one of Trumps earlier claims that GHWB had kept his documents at a bowling alley/chinese restaurant.

The fact check refuted his statement by saying that NARA had designated a building that had once been the aforementioned bowling alley/chinese restaurant (I assume in College Station) as the transitional depository for all of GHWB's records while the library was being built. I'm guessing the deliniation of Personal vs. Presidential records occurred over the next ? number of years both at the temporary location, and the library once it was built.

Which brings us to Trump.

The fact that all of those boxes were a MAL in the first place indicates that NARA/Biden Admin initially designated MAL as the temporary holding facility for ALL of Trump's records; or, simply dropped the ball and didn't designate anything, only to later raise an issue because an opportunity presented itself.

Trump has definitely not helped himself in this debacle, but I'm having a very hard time seeing the criminality narrative that is being pushed.

---

There is estimated to be 10s of millions of classified docs spread amongst the libraries and NARA facilities.

Adjudication of Presidential v Personal occurs essentially in perpetuity after a POTUS leaves office. A POTUS's notes on a particular document that may be deemed (for the sake of argument let's say its not actually marked classified, but the content is classified or contains a military secret) present a conundrum of Pres v Personal. Are his thoughts and documentation on those thoughts personal? Since they dealt with the business of the office of POTUS, is it Presidential? This is where the deference to POTUS is supposed to be given.

The 2nd bolded part is important in the context of the last couple of pages putting the blame squarely on Trump for how he and his team handled this. NARA and Team Biden are alone responsible for where, when, how and what is shipped to former POTUS team to review. In a completely bizarre but more and more seemingly intentional move, they sent the boxes to a personal residence which also has areas open to the "public".

They also removed Trump's security clearance and removed any SCIF designation. Months later they tell Team Trump "hey, some of those boxers may have classified docs and you should lock them up until we can come down, look through them and take back what we want".

Trump responds with "no thanks, we will look through them ourselves and give back what we want to".

Biden DOJ then says "you do not have clearance anymore to look at anything marked classified and there is no SCIF at MAL so give it all back. And we noticed you opened box #1 labeled 'Trump golf hats and Time magazines". Unfortunately that is the box that we know contained empy folders with classified markings, and you are now violating the law".

Trump sends pic of his middle finger and game on.

Trump's arrogance does indeed work against him here. The idea he was behaving in a manner inconsistent with prior admins is simply not true. Its Team Biden who turk the "hard left" turn in how records of the incumbent POTUS are handled.

FishrCoAg said:

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Unless you are required by law to have it done…

---

LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

Quote:

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I'm going to read through the rest of their statements before commenting, but I'll say that something definitely smells off.

---

Yes, it does. Note carefully the dates of NARA statements.

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

Unless you are required by law to have it done…

---

LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

---

Stealing a blue star of whataboutism for this reply.

FishrCoAg said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

Unless you are required by law to have it done…

---

LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

---

Stealing a blue star of whataboutism for this reply.

---

There should be a flag for people claiming whataboutism.

We have a concept in our judicial system based on Common Law called "precedence". People who snark back with "whataboutism" are directly in conflict with the concept of "precedence".

It's the blue Diamond of whataboutism. GET IT RIGHT

FishrCoAg said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

Unless you are required by law to have it done…

---

LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

---

Stealing a blue star of whataboutism for this reply.

---

Ok. So equal justice means nothing to you, correct? No need to hold a VP to the same standard with 2.5x the time and less records to go through. We've got our man, no?

Whataboutism is a fun card to play in the political arena. We're in the legal arena now, and precedent is a thing.

Charpie said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

Unless you are required by law to have it done…

---

LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

---

Stealing a blue star of whataboutism for this reply.

---

Ok. So equal justice means nothing to you, correct? No need to hold a VP to the same standard with 2.5x the time and less records to go through. We've got our man, no?

Whataboutism is a fun card to play in the political arena. We're in the legal arena now, and precedent is a thing.

---

Here is another blue Diamond for you.

---

Man up, Hot Shot. Tell me how much Equal Justice under the law means to you - or doesn't.

You're obviously good at throwing juvenile snark. Try making a real argument for a change.