CBS POLL: (Republicans)

— 61% say that Trump's indictment won’t change their views about Trump

— 76% say that Donald Trump's indictment is politically motivated

— 80% say that Trump should be able to be president even if convicted over classified docshttps://t.co/6fAu9DVzds pic.twitter.com/HddH7hKMgo

— InteractivePolls (@IAPolls2022) June 11, 2023

It's probably because he gets paid to post here or something like that? There seem to be a rash of new posters that started in 2022 with thousands of posts in a short span. They post with ferocity and in inciteful manner. Almost like it's a mission or a job. Very weird but something that is curious to me. Part of some sort of campaign to sow discord? Oh well. Carry on Manhattan.

Unfortunately some of these folks simply represent a voting block that has been completely delusioned into electric batteries are toxin free clean energy, that genders and Antifa are just concepts / ideas, and that Biden is the savior of our Country.

Hence, they disgust most logical humans. But, they must be tolerated.

policywonk98 said:

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Eric, Gipper, et al.

Yes, this is a discussion of legality. That's relevant.

It's also a discussion of politics. Exec branch is a political branch. Including DOJ, FBI. These are political institutions run by political actors. Making political decisions as well as legal.

Talking about both is relevant. Arguing the legal merits certainly makes sense. And I agree, "whataboutism" isn't a defense unless it's actual legal case.

But that still doesn't make the political discussion irrelevant.

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Politically, it's not only a relevant discussion, but an important one! Have said since last summer this is a political prosecution and MAL never should have been raided!

HOWEVA, when the discussion is about legalities, I think those with expeirnce should chime in. Lots of internet lawyer wannabes spreading false info on the law.

PSA:

Quote:

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Five law enforcement sources have allegedly confirmed to CNN that so-called domestic terrorism agents and analysts are actively working to identify any potential threats surrounding Trump's court appearance. The monitoring reportedly extends to online platforms and includes confidential human informants reporting on these groups' activities.

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Quote:

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As former President Donald Trump prepares for his upcoming court appearance in Florida on Tuesday, FBI agents across the country are actively looking for possible 'domestic terror threats,' according to a CNN report citing law enforcement sources.

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LINK

aggiehawg said:

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PSA:

Quote:

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Five law enforcement sources have allegedly confirmed to CNN that so-called domestic terrorism agents and analysts are actively working to identify any potential threats surrounding Trump's court appearance. The monitoring reportedly extends to online platforms and includes confidential human informants reporting on these groups' activities.

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Quote:

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As former President Donald Trump prepares for his upcoming court appearance in Florida on Tuesday, FBI agents across the country are actively looking for possible 'domestic terror threats,' according to a CNN report citing law enforcement sources.

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LINK

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Yep, which as I have said previously should be a red flag for the timing and severity of what they are bringing on Trump. By design, its to rile up what is perceived as a radical base.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the FBI is active on this board. Not talking about retired agents, I am talking about people who work for the FBI currently are covering this board and certain users.

Your PSA should be heeded.

FBI is being used to instigate hatred and outrage. It has become a sad day in America.

Lots of Ray ban wearing khaki pants Nazi rallies in South Florida this week where detainees are never actually arrested and names never released.

BMX Bandit said:

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Andrew McCarthy has clearly been compromised by the deep State

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Would it be fair to say that the only people not "compromised by the deep State" consider professional wrestling to be the highest form of sports?

eric76 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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Andrew McCarthy has clearly been compromised by the deep State

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Would it be fair to say that the only people not "compromised by the deep State" consider professional wrestling to be the highest form of sports?

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People have squarely moved on to Midget Wrastling. No one cares for "professional wrestling".

Manhattan said:

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Logos Stick said:

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It seems Trumps ego got in the way and blinded him to the fact that there are two sets of justice now, one for conservatives and one for leftists. This despite the fact that he was subjected to it during his presidency.

He thought that because Hillary broke the law and got away with it, he could too, despite knowing how corrupt the left is. If this were a Dem pres and conservative DOJ, the raid would not have taken place and the whole matter would have dropped.

I totally get it. Pride and anger is a big motivator.

The country is irrevocably broken. All the radical liberals in this thread celebrating this are simply more proof of that.

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this situation right now is the reason Hillary wasn't prosecuted, she would have been acquitted and you wouldn't be able to use the Hillary defense right now.

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Why would Hillary have been acquitted? It seems like a more or less open and shut case against her.

Im Gipper said:

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Lots of Ray ban wearing khaki pants Nazi rallies in South Florida this week where detainees are never actually arrested and names never released.

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Yeah hawg, it's very odd timing to say the least. This board and other message boards are influential so I can understand why they wouldn't just monitor but also steer conversation to both incite and to influence. I guess they are just following orders but you can sometimes possibly see this occur as multiple users will both take over conversation and engage in circular arguments among themselves. You see this on other platforms too like tigerdroppings. Maybe I'm wrong, but all I'm saying is it certainly seems odd. They usually post during the same times too, like a 9-5 style job. But again, I have no idea, just something I've noticed recently. Like 7am-noon post on Texags, hour lunch break. 1-5 post on another message board, day is done. Very odd.

aggiehawg said:

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Im Gipper said:

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Lots of Ray ban wearing khaki pants Nazi rallies in South Florida this week where detainees are never actually arrested and names never released.

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That is awesome!

Ag with kids said:

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fka ftc said:

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Manhattan said:

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Well republicans would never nominate a black man so that is not the case.

Why can't you address the fact that he was waving around war planning documents to randos, for clout, and had nuclear secrets, possibly in his bathroom.

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Flagged.

No evidence of nuclear secrets being in his bathroom. BTW - Bathroom maybe only lockable door with space after closets and performance stage were filled up.

The question you may want to ask is why the Biden admin ignored precedent and instead of sending the docs to a NARA facility sent them to Mar-a-Lago. Trump didn't send them there, he was already out of office.

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BUT!!!!!

We have a picture of BOXES!!!! That's PROOF!

Just like that earlier picture that showed CLASSIFIED FILE COVERS proved those were classified documents...

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The fact that the contents of those files weren't there is rather bothersome and should raise a whole lot of questions about what happened to those documents.

Odd like you post about a job and the first one interested works for the FBI? Yeah, I find that odd.

aginlakeway said:

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Manhattan said:

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How many attorneys have quit on him over the years, the guy is a disaster, in this very case he tried to commit crimes with his attorney!

Do you ask your five law firms to do illegal **** for you? I assume not.

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How do you know this for a fact?

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From the attorney's testimony according to Andrew McCarthy

Quote:

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One of these lawyers, Evan Corcoran, kept trying to help Trump even after he knew he'd been had. For his trouble in representing a former president, Corcoran was subpoenaed and forced by a federal judge and an appellate court to testify. He fought them all the way, struggling to preserve Trump's attorney-client privilege even though, apparently unbeknownst to Corcoran at the time, Trump had blithely negated the privilege by using Corcoran to provide false information, under oath, in response to a subpoena.

...

Corcoran was not trying to hurt Trump, even though Trump had thought nothing of putting the lawyer's livelihood at risk. Corcoran provided the lurid testimony reflected in the indictment including Trump's suggestions that he falsely tell the FBI and grand jury that he did not have documents marked classified, and that he "pluck" out of a package of documents responsive to the subpoena "anything really bad in there" because the law required him to, not because he wanted to.

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aggiehawg said:

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4stringAg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Does anyone know why NARA broke their normal procedure for securing space near Mar A Lago for Trump to send documents there as he went through them? Like they have for other former Presidents?

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Likely to create what's happening right now.

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I mean the texts between Nauta and Trump discuss moving boxes for Trump to go through them and then moving them back, presumably because there was not the nearby facility like other Presidents had during the times they were creating their Presidential Libraries. But was Trump even offered that accomodation that had been extended to his predecessors?

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To be clear, It's irrelevant to this case. Whether the NARA storage for Trump's presidency was next door to Mar-Lago or in Alaska, that doesn't weigh on whether the documents should have been at Mar-A-Lago.

They didn't move archives to Florida as he had put together 0 plans for a Presidential Library or similar facility where the documents would be made publicly and permanently available.

They did move documents and archives to Florida. That seems pretty obvious. Did you make a typo?

Part of this whole thing is Biden just shipped **** before they had a chance to setup storage. Hence bathrooms and closets.

Trump was going through process of reviewing, having been told, presumably, that precedent dictated the incumbent POTUS has wide deference in determining what was personal v presidential in nature.

the_batman26 said:

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Because it breaks precedent and holds outstanding, pragmatic consequences for the future. Going after political opponents is what the Balkans would do. current Democratic Party just did.

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No, I did not make a typo. NARA did not set up an archival facility in Florida, as AggieHawg correctly notes.


(And no, the Biden Administration didn't ship Trump's "my boxes" to Mar-a-Lago and no, the current nor former President does not have wide discretion to determine what is presidential and what is personal.)

eric76 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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fka ftc said:

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Manhattan said:

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Well republicans would never nominate a black man so that is not the case.

Why can't you address the fact that he was waving around war planning documents to randos, for clout, and had nuclear secrets, possibly in his bathroom.

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Flagged.

No evidence of nuclear secrets being in his bathroom. BTW - Bathroom maybe only lockable door with space after closets and performance stage were filled up.

The question you may want to ask is why the Biden admin ignored precedent and instead of sending the docs to a NARA facility sent them to Mar-a-Lago. Trump didn't send them there, he was already out of office.

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BUT!!!!!

We have a picture of BOXES!!!! That's PROOF!

Just like that earlier picture that showed CLASSIFIED FILE COVERS proved those were classified documents...

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The fact that the contents of those files weren't there is rather bothersome and should raise a whole lot of questions about what happened to those documents.

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Meh...

I used to have stacks of secret and confidential covers earlier in my career.

No classified info. Just the covers.

So, while EVERYTHING raises a question for you because you have zero clue about classified information, if doesn't even raise an eyebrow for me.

EXCEPT...why the people put those covers on the ground and took that picture and THEN released that picture to the media. THAT might raise some questions. Not from you, though, because those questions won't make Trump look bad for you....

aggiehawg said:

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Does anyone know why NARA broke their normal procedure for securing space near Mar A Lago for Trump to send documents there as he went through them? Like they have for other former Presidents?

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That is an excellent question.

Does NARA have a secured space to send Trump's documents or did they send all of them to Mar-a-Lago?

I've read that the documents Trump has are those he took with him. If the records for previous Presidents required an entire warehouse, how much space would they take at Mar-a-Lago?

After writing the above, I did some searching and found the following at https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001

Quote:

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NARA no longer expects to move Presidential records to a temporary facility outside of Washington, DC, given the relatively small volume of paper Presidential records created by recent administrations, as compared to the huge volume of electronic records and the strong interest in the digitization of paper records. In addition, the increased endowment requirements first applicable to President Obama under the Presidential Libraries Act may impact decisions by former Presidents concerning whether to build a traditional Presidential Library for NARA.

Prior to the end of his administration, President Trump did not communicate any intent to NARA with regard to funding, building, endowing, and donating a Presidential Library to NARA under the Presidential Libraries Act. Accordingly, the Trump Presidential records have been and continue to be maintained by NARA in the Washington, DC, area, and there was no reason for NARA to consider a temporary facility in Florida or elsewhere.

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So because of computers and electronic records, there are far fewer paper records than with earlier Presidents. And NARA does have storage for Trump's Presidential records in the Washington, DC, area.

TXAggie2011 said:

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No, I did not make a typo. NARA did not set up an archival facility in Florida, as AggieHawg correctly notes.


(And no, the Biden Administration didn't ship Trump's "my boxes" to Mar-a-Lago and no, the current nor former President does not have wide discretion to determine what is presidential and what is personal.)

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Then who does? Because the Archivist clearly doesn't.

Manhattan said:

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The time to argue pra was when they were subpoenaed.

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That's ridiculous. Statutory defenses are not waived if you don't lodge them in response to a subpoena.

aggiehawg said:

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4stringAg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Does anyone know why NARA broke their normal procedure for securing space near Mar A Lago for Trump to send documents there as he went through them? Like they have for other former Presidents?

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Likely to create what's happening right now.

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I mean the texts between Nauta and Trump discuss moving boxes for Trump to go through them and then moving them back, presumably because there was not the nearby facility like other Presidents had during the times they were creating their Presidential Libraries. But was Trump even offered that accomodation that had been extended to his predecessors?

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Apparently that is only if Trump is going to create a Presidential Library? I have yet to hear anything about him doing it, much less where it would be. The NARA facilities would presumably be near the site of the library, if one was planned. Would they assume that the Trump Presidential Library, if one is built, would be in Miami?

fka ftc said:

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They did move documents and archives to Florida. That seems pretty obvious. Did you make a typo?

Part of this whole thing is Biden just shipped **** before they had a chance to setup storage. Hence bathrooms and closets.

Trump was going through process of reviewing, having been told, presumably, that precedent dictated the incumbent POTUS has wide deference in determining what was personal v presidential in nature.

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This is a very interesting angle I hadn't fully considered until now.

I believe it is probable that Trump had limited knowledge of what he actually had. The indictment deals with - what? - a couple hundred classified papers? But the number of boxes taken in the Raid, as well as the pictures floating around, indicate that there were likely tens of thousands of documents that had yet been gone through.

Now Trump is charged under the Espionage act for having these documents as a "security risk".

Contrast that with Biden, who had boxes of documents in his unsecured garage from 8 years ago that contained classified documents. And crickets from NARA and the DOJ.

So all this means that this is not a matter of whether the Espionage Act or the PRA has precedence over whether "violations" occurred. For this case to have merit at all, the PRA has to be totally disregarded as if it never existed. As such, this may be a problem for the prosecution.

Sarge 91 said:

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Manhattan said:

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The time to argue pra was when they were subpoenaed.

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That's ridiculous. Statutory defenses are not waived if you don't lodge them in response to a subpoena.

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The Trump team blew their PRA wad in their civil lawsuit.

The PRA isn't really relevant to this case, as no one serious is arguing that the 31 documents in question are not Presidential Records. And again, the 11th Circuit already spoke pretty clearly about the larger group of documents with classified markings.

This NARA business is a huge distraction.

TXAggie2011 said:

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No, I did not make a typo. NARA did not set up an archival facility in Florida, as AggieHawg correctly notes.


(And no, the Biden Administration didn't ship Trump's "my boxes" to Mar-a-Lago and no, the current nor former President does not have wide discretion to determine what is presidential and what is personal.)

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Wrong on those last two points. I already made the first point on like page 2.

Keep up.

TXAggie2011 said:

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Sarge 91 said:

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Manhattan said:

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The time to argue pra was when they were subpoenaed.

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That's ridiculous. Statutory defenses are not waived if you don't lodge them in response to a subpoena.

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The Trump team blew their PRA wad in their civil lawsuit.

The PRA isn't really relevant to this case, as no one serious is arguing that the 31 documents in question are not Presidential Records. And again, the 11th Circuit already spoke pretty clearly about the larger group of documents with classified markings.

This NARA business is a huge distraction.

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God, so wrong yet again, you are bad at this you may need to start citing sources other than Rachel Maddow or your FBI informant.

Sarge 91 said:

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Manhattan said:

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The time to argue pra was when they were subpoenaed.

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That's ridiculous. Statutory defenses are not waived if you don't lodge them in response to a subpoena.

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And a response to a subpoena can be a motion to quash if overbroad. That might have been a mistake not to object to the scope of the subpoena way back when. But I doubt it would have been successful, ultimately.

Now the probable cause supporting the application for the search warrant at MAL? Harder to challenge unless an indictment ensues. Now we have an indictment and the legality of that search warrant can be challenged more directly.

Furthermore, it appears to me (and my spidey senses) that the reason South Florida was chosen as the venue for this indictment may very have been to sidestep the issues that the prosecutors in DC using that grand jury had created. Side issues that could have derailed the whole thing very quickly. Convening the Southern District of Florida grand jury was another type of "insurance policy" to get around that. Wasting resources running two grand juries investigating the exact sae thing is very rare for a reason. They needed a back up, just in case.

Trusty pretty much laid out that case and that is probably why he withdrew. He's a witness to some of those improprieties by the Special Counsel. But would those even be relevant in a parallel grand jury in Florida? Judge Cannon may find that they are. She may not find that they are.

Where have we heard about "insurance policy" before? Players may appear to be different but they are actually the same people pulling the strings and using the same playbooks as those who came before them.

Is this thread saying agencies get to determine what the Executive Branch can do? Because if so we're in a real bad spot. JFK didn't like a certain triple-letter agency for a reason.

aggiehawg said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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No, I did not make a typo. NARA did not set up an archival facility in Florida, as AggieHawg correctly notes.


(And no, the Biden Administration didn't ship Trump's "my boxes" to Mar-a-Lago and no, the current nor former President does not have wide discretion to determine what is presidential and what is personal.)

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Then who does? Because the Archivist clearly doesn't.

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No one, really. They're defined by law and that's that. As the courts have said, the expectation is for good faith compliance with the legal terms. I'll grant you there are little to no legal remedies for someone (at least from the general public) who disagrees with the "determination", but the PRA also states that determination is to be made contemporaneously.

It can't be said enough that none of this changes the fact that there isn't any apparent serious legal argument about whether the documents are presidential or not.

It seems to me that agencies are taking up that mantle, however. Which is not a good sign.

TXAggie2011 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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No, I did not make a typo. NARA did not set up an archival facility in Florida, as AggieHawg correctly notes.


(And no, the Biden Administration didn't ship Trump's "my boxes" to Mar-a-Lago and no, the current nor former President does not have wide discretion to determine what is presidential and what is personal.)

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Then who does? Because the Archivist clearly doesn't.

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No one, really. They're defined by law and that's that. As the courts have said, the expectation is for good faith compliance with the legal terms. I'll grant you there are little to no legal remedies for someone (at least from the general public) who disagrees with the "determination", but the PRA also states that determination is to be made contemporaneously.

It can't be said enough that none of this changes the fact that there isn't any apparent serious legal argument about whether the documents are presidential or not.

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Not… yet.

Quote:

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It can't be said enough that none of this changes the fact that there isn't any apparent serious legal argument about whether the documents are presidential or not.

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Okay.

Before the PRA, those records belonged to the outgoing president. PRA changed the presumption in favor of none of them were personal in nature, until the Clinton audiotape sock drawer case. There is was declared that the POTUS solely had that authority. Remember some of those tapes included highly classified info in conversations Bill was having with foreign heads of state, during a war, in Kosovo. No problem there.

So I ask again, which bureaucrat, beady eyed, academic librarian, gets to make such determinations? Or is it a bearded scandal plagued Special Counsel and a prosecuting attorney who had to remove herself and resign because of illegal wiretapping of defense counsel's phones back in 2009?