FireAg said:

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I'm not going to sit here and argue that Trump is the "best" face for the war against the establishment and lawfare...his approach ABSOLUTELY makes it easier for them to come after him...

But swap him out with DeSantis or ANY OTHER ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT candidate, and you will get the exact same result... Some fo you think DeSantis could beat it...

I agree with hawg in that, if they don't want you to succeed, it doesn't matter who you are...they will throw the kitchen sink at you to protect their vision of America and this globalist society...

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Yes, it is bad, but that means you have to put someone competent in the role to fight it. Putting Trump front and center is the absolute worst thing we could do, because he is

So. Bad. At. It.

I don't know how to put it any other way. There is a reason why they are going after HIM. Not because he is so effective, but because as long as he is the one they are doing it to, they have the highest probability of success.

Replace Bozo the Clown with a competent person and this stuff may not go away right away, but it goes down, and the competent person fights it the way it should be fought, and has a MUCH better chance of being defeated for good.

aggiehawg said:

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FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

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Well, if our freakin' court system was working like it was designed, there would be a way to stop it. Our court system is too unwieldy, too slow and has too much of a backlog, stemming mainly from the covid crappola.

But I want to add another facet at play in the lawfare being waged against Trump and that is going after the law licenses of anyone who works for him, whether that's by bogus disciplinary complaints to state bars or asking (and getting) monetary sanctions from judges.

Our election laws are a complete mess with courts either too afraid or unable to provide a timely effective remedy when the laws are broken. I started a thread after the 2020 election asking the simple question of how many election laws being broken was too much? Since then, the trajectory has been going mostly downhill, despite the efforts to close the Zuckbuck loopholes, clean up voter rolls, put more stringent controls on mail in ballots and the biggest problem of all, outsourcing elections to private entities with no supervision, oversight nor accountability, nor transparency of what these private entities are really doing.

And that outsourcing will bite DeSantis or any other GOP candidate in the butt just as much as it does Trump. Little of this is actually about Trump, it is about the end of free and fair elections. And that should scare the s*** out of everybody that loves this country.

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HOMERUN POST...exactly how I see things as well...

That's why I continue to tell people to stop looking at Trump as the source...he's merely the face (and we can debate until we are blue in the face as to whether he is the right face, but it's a meaningless argument)...it will happen to anyone else who does not align with establishment docturn and goals...

Quote:

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Replace Bozo the Clown with a competent person and this stuff may not go away right away, but it goes down, and the competent person fights it the way it should be fought, and has a MUCH better chance of being defeated for good.

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So tell me, which is the "way it should be fought?" Because I have been teraing my hair out trying to figure out how to stop it if the courts refuse to act.

Phatbob said:

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FireAg said:

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I'm not going to sit here and argue that Trump is the "best" face for the war against the establishment and lawfare...his approach ABSOLUTELY makes it easier for them to come after him...

But swap him out with DeSantis or ANY OTHER ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT candidate, and you will get the exact same result... Some fo you think DeSantis could beat it...

I agree with hawg in that, if they don't want you to succeed, it doesn't matter who you are...they will throw the kitchen sink at you to protect their vision of America and this globalist society...

---

Yes, it is bad, but that means you have to put someone competent in the role to fight it. Putting Trump front and center is the absolute worst thing we could do, because he is

So. Bad. At. It.

I don't know how to put it any other way. There is a reason why they are going after HIM. Not because he is so effective, but because as long as he is the one they are doing it to, they have the highest probability of success.

Replace Bozo the Clown with a competent person and this stuff may not go away right away, but it goes down, and the competent person fights it the way it should be fought, and has a MUCH better chance of being defeated for good.

---

You are operating under the assumption that DeSantis could "rise above and scucceed" in the face of their methods...

You are naive if you believe that...the forces in play here are astronomically larger than any one man, and they would take down DeSantis too...

You assume that they wouldn't because of some wins at the state level...and you assume that everything in this world is on the up and up...

That is why you aren't able to see that NO ONE, including Ron DeSantis, is immune to what the establishment is doing...

This is BIG endorsement for @RonDeSantis . Representative McCulla is one of the most respected legislators in the Iowa House. She comes from a very #GOP heavy district which she dominates. Congrats! https://t.co/se3eNDFXU7

— Bob Vander Plaats (@bobvanderplaats) December 4, 2023

If you really think this is the most important issues we are facing as a nation, then Trump is the worst person to address it. In my line of work we deal with troubleshooting issues and fixing them. You have to isolate the issue, put the resource that fixes that issue specifically and move on to the next issue.

Trump has been part of litigation for his entire adult life. Yes, the left is using it for political purposes, but it is much harder to convince the voting public that it is all for politics when he was sued, gone through bankruptcy, etc long before he took office. That is a specific to Trump (and I am not saying it is a good or bad thing, it just is what it is). There is absolutely no isolating the problem here.

If you put someone who ISN'T a New York real estate mogul in the same place, and it becomes isolated and obvious what is happening. Not only that, but if you put someone who hasn't been to court with porn stars, ex-wives, etc, then the chances (and I said chances, not surety) of the cases coming up to begin with are lower. Combine it all with someone who actually says what they mean instead of requiring some sort of a-hole politician to English dictionary interpretation, and it puts the barriers to entry for actually executing the lawfare way higher.

Since electability in the general is a big issue on this thread, some things to think about.

Sean Trende from Real Clear Politics has some observations and thoughts:

Quote:

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So let us set the record straight: Trump can win. Not in a "maybe if all the stars align and then Russia changes the vote totals (even somehow in states like Michigan that use hand-marked paper ballots)" kind of way. Just flat out: Trump can win.

As of this writing, Trump leads Biden by 2.6 percentage points nationally in the RealClearPolitics Average. This is Trump's largest lead in the RCP average to date. Not for 2024, mind you. Ever.

Let's put this in perspective. In 2016, Trump led Hillary Clinton for all of five days in the national RCP Average, each of those days in the immediate aftermath of the Republican convention. He led in 29 polls taken over the course of the entire campaign, 10 of which are recorded in the RCP averages as Los Angeles Times/USC tracking polls.

In 2020, Trump never led Biden in the national RCP Average. He briefly closed to within four points in early January of 2020, but that is it. He led in five polls all cycle.

So, counting the L.A. Times tracker as a single poll, Trump led in a total of 24 national polls. This cycle? He's led in that many since mid-September. He's led in more polls in the past three weeks than he did against Biden in all of 2019-2020.

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Quote:

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You may be thinking that we don't elect our president via the popular vote, but rather do so through the Electoral College. This is, of course, true. It also makes Trump's current position in the polls all the more striking. After all, Trump has consistently outperformed his polling, and his Electoral College positioning has consistently been stronger than his national positioning. That doesn't mean that this will necessarily hold in 2024, and at some point, the GOP's worsening position in the suburbs will reverse the Electoral College dynamic that has plagued Democrats for the past few cycles.

But we can look at state-level polling as well. In 2016, Trump (somewhat infamously) never led in a poll in Wisconsin. He was never within more than three points of Clinton there. He led in a single poll in Michigan and a single poll in Pennsylvania. His lead in North Carolina never exceeded two points in the RCP averages, while in Florida, his largest lead was 1.2 points.

The 2020 comparison is even more striking. Trump led Biden in Florida in the RCP averages briefly, in October and March of that year. In Arizona, it was the same story. North Carolina was a little better for Trump, as he led in the RCP averages perhaps a quarter of the time. In Ohio, Trump led in only six polls all cycle. He led in five polls in Pennsylvania. In Michigan it was five polls, and in Wisconsin, it was four.

To put this in even deeper perspective, Mitt Romney never led President Barack Obama in the RCP Average in Wisconsin (and led in just three polls), Pennsylvania (likewise, he led in just three polls), Michigan (he led in just eight polls), or Ohio (Romney led 10 polls all cycle). Things were a bit sunnier for Romney in Florida, where he had leads in the low single digits frequently. The same is true for North Carolina, although Obama led there until May.

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Quote:

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What does the state polling show today? Trump leads in the RCP Average in Michigan for the first time, ever.

Pennsylvania? He leads for the first time ever, and has led in most polls.

He narrowly trails Biden in Wisconsin but has already led in almost as many polls as he led in the state in 2016 and 2020 combined. His 0.7% deficit compares to his previous best showing in the state: A 3.5% deficit in August of 2020.


Florida? Trump has led or tied in every poll, including some double-digit leads.

Arizona? He leads by five in the RCP Average.

Georgia? He leads by six.

Ohio? Polling is sparse, but he leads by 10.

In other words, analyzing this election correctly isn't just a matter of giving lip service to the notion that Trump can win this election.

The correct position right now is that Trump is better positioned in the polls to win this election than any GOP nominee since at least 2004. Not only that, he habitually over-performs his polls. Frankly, if you are willing to set favorites this far out, you should almost certainly declare Donald Trump the favorite.

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LINK

I think it's likely that DeSantis's internals are telling them the same thing...would explain the recent shake ups, at least to some extent...

Still think the wild card is Haley...she's been gaining on Trump (though still a huge gap to make up) in several state primary polls, and nationally, she outperforms both Trump and DeSantis vs Biden...

Still don't think she can make up the gap, but of all of the R contenders remaining, she is the only one making significant moves in the polling...

Despite all of claims there is no Plan B and Biden will be the nominee for the Dems, I don't think that actually happens.

So in the end, how well Trum polls against Biden would be moot. Ditto for Haley.

Well, Trump does have faith in Polls.

All of that is predicated on Biden being the Democrat nominee. The window is closing fro their primary voters to elect anyone else, but having Biden voluntarily withdraw due to "health reasons" is a strong possibility if he is still trailing next year. It will be a close election even against Biden with the anti-Trump brand being so high.

FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

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And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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And let me add this...

If they can use lawfare against Trump to keep him out of office...what makes anyone think that the establishment can't use the same tactics against any other non-establishment candidate, including Ron DeSantis?

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They can TRY. And they will.

Is that a reason to vote for Trump?

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You don't seem to get it...there is nothing to stop them from doing it, and nothing to stop them from being successful at it...

Voting for Trump or voting for DeSantis isn't even the argument...if the establishment doesn't want you in office because you are a threat to their vision of this nation (and the global, progressive society at large) there is quite literally nothing to stop it...outside of armed conflict and redoing this thing called 'America' from scratch...

Our laws are being used against us, and the media is absolutley pushing only one side of the narrative (as they did with Steelem, quid pro quo, Jan 6, Floyd, Covid, and the persecution that Trump has specifically endured since being removed from office)... I know hawg hopes it doesn't get to soem sort of civil conflict, but I frankly see no other recourse to stop it...

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So, then it's all over. What's there to talk about then? You've already stated we're in checkmate.

aggiehawg said:

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Despite all of claims there is no Plan B and Biden will be the nominee for the Dems, I don't think that actually happens.

So in the end, how well Trum polls against Biden would be moot. Ditto for Haley.

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I'm with you...I truly think the DNC wants to pivot to a different candidate...but I think the Newsom debate test balloon failed to generate any momentum...

Part of me has been wondering if they would try to swap Dr. Jill for Grandpa Joe...We've certainly seen spouses assume the ticket (or seat) from the deceased...could they do the same for the election and just put Dr. Jill on the ballots instead?

They're running out of time to make a change, though...unless they were to pass new rules at the convention to facilitate the swap at that point...

FireAg said:

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You need to peel back the hyperbole and look at what is really going on...you're being triggered by some refence to Trump that pulls at some notion of religious righteousness...you gotta get past that and really look at what is going on...

This is an advertsing schtick...insulting to some while emboldening others...

It doesn't move the needle for me one way or another...

But the underlying issues in this country are what I am truly concerned about, and right now, Trump is the face of the movement trying to reverse it...

DeSantis could also be that face...(he won't be in this cycle, but he could be in the future), and unless we, as the people of this nation, take it upon ourselves to take a stand against this *******ization of the very foundation of this nation, then anyone who comes in as anti-establishment/globalist/progressive will face exactly what Trump faces today...

---

How do you propose we "take this stand"?

Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

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And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

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Cool...he's going to be the R nominee...so I guess your choices are 3rd party or stay home...

Those are certainly your right...

But if you want to vote R in the general, Trump will be the name at the top unless something drastic and unprecedented happens to him...and again, nothing prevents him from being on ballots if he is in jail...

So it really would have to be something extreme...

DD88 said:

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Well, Trump does have faith in Polls.

All of that is predicated on Biden being the Democrat nominee. The window is closing fro their primary voters to elect anyone else, but having Biden voluntarily withdraw due to "health reasons" is a strong possibility if he is still trailing next year. It will be a close election even against Biden with the anti-Trump brand being so high.

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Reason I posted that Trende article is because I have been wondering about 2016 and the term "reluctant Trump voter" when pollsters opined that Trump voters shied away from polls and wouldn't admit they were supporters. In the aftermath of 2016 and when the autopsy was done, Trump's wins in PA, WI, and MI were the result of the Trump campaign and state GOP parties seeking out disaffected voters in the more rural areas of those states. They typically ould not vote because the urban centers always outweighed them so they just didn't make the effort to vote. The campaign and state party outreach convinced them to show up in 2016 and those numbers went even higher in 2020.

Are there still reluctant Trump voters out there for 2024? I think that's what Trende is thinking, that there are even more than is being reflected in the current polling. History may not repeat it self but it can rhyme.

FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

---

And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

---

Cool...he's going to be the R nominee...so I guess your choices are 3rd party or stay home...

Those are certainly your right...

But if you want to vote R in the general, Trump will be the name at the top unless something drastic and unprecedented happens to him...and again, nothing prevents him from being on ballots if he is in jail...

So it really would have to be something extreme...

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There is another option. R down ballot and no Presidency vote. I think that will happen quite a bit, if he is the nominee and there is no reasonable 3rd party option.

Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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And let me add this...

If they can use lawfare against Trump to keep him out of office...what makes anyone think that the establishment can't use the same tactics against any other non-establishment candidate, including Ron DeSantis?

---

They can TRY. And they will.

Is that a reason to vote for Trump?

---

You don't seem to get it...there is nothing to stop them from doing it, and nothing to stop them from being successful at it...

Voting for Trump or voting for DeSantis isn't even the argument...if the establishment doesn't want you in office because you are a threat to their vision of this nation (and the global, progressive society at large) there is quite literally nothing to stop it...outside of armed conflict and redoing this thing called 'America' from scratch...

Our laws are being used against us, and the media is absolutley pushing only one side of the narrative (as they did with Steelem, quid pro quo, Jan 6, Floyd, Covid, and the persecution that Trump has specifically endured since being removed from office)... I know hawg hopes it doesn't get to soem sort of civil conflict, but I frankly see no other recourse to stop it...

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So, then it's all over. What's there to talk about then? You've already stated we're in checkmate.

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I make no inferences otherwise...I believe we are as close to checkmate as we have ever been...

I am holding out hope that Trump would have a big enough lead going into election day 2024 that it would make the steal damn near impossible to pull off (at least in the same manner as the last time), but that also assumes Biden is the opponent, which I am still not yet willing to assume... So there are still too many variables for me to be 100% confident...but my confidence level, based on data available today, is at about 80%... I would have said 99% if Trump had not passed Biden in polling a few months back...and I think that has the DNC looking for a suitable alternative (and the Newsom trial balloon didn't get the results they had hoped for)...

FireAg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Despite all of claims there is no Plan B and Biden will be the nominee for the Dems, I don't think that actually happens.

So in the end, how well Trum polls against Biden would be moot. Ditto for Haley.

---

I'm with you...I truly think the DNC wants to pivot to a different candidate...but I think the Newsom debate test balloon failed to generate any momentum...

Part of me has been wondering if they would try to swap Dr. Jill for Grandpa Joe...We've certainly seen spouses assume the ticket (or seat) from the deceased...could they do the same for the election and just put Dr. Jill on the ballots instead?

They're running out of time to make a change, though...unless they were to pass new rules at the convention to facilitate the swap at that point...

---

Their only choice left is to have a brokered convention, with all the state deadlines they have missed. The last one was in 1924 and was a losing race for the D's.

Ag with kids said:

---

FireAg said:

---

You need to peel back the hyperbole and look at what is really going on...you're being triggered by some refence to Trump that pulls at some notion of religious righteousness...you gotta get past that and really look at what is going on...

This is an advertsing schtick...insulting to some while emboldening others...

It doesn't move the needle for me one way or another...

But the underlying issues in this country are what I am truly concerned about, and right now, Trump is the face of the movement trying to reverse it...

DeSantis could also be that face...(he won't be in this cycle, but he could be in the future), and unless we, as the people of this nation, take it upon ourselves to take a stand against this *******ization of the very foundation of this nation, then anyone who comes in as anti-establishment/globalist/progressive will face exactly what Trump faces today...

---

How do you propose we "take this stand"?

---

I don't see any other options than the one that many say is "absurd" or "too awful to think about"...I think we are at the point that we either literally fight back, or we accept what we have and just allow this country to fall into a socialist progressive globalist nation...

Phatbob said:

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FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

---

And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

---

Cool...he's going to be the R nominee...so I guess your choices are 3rd party or stay home...

Those are certainly your right...

But if you want to vote R in the general, Trump will be the name at the top unless something drastic and unprecedented happens to him...and again, nothing prevents him from being on ballots if he is in jail...

So it really would have to be something extreme...

---

There is another option. R down ballot and no Presidency vote. I think that will happen quite a bit, if he is the nominee and there is no reasonable 3rd party option.

---

And that is going to change our nation's path how exactly? Everyone always marvels at the power of down-ballot, but when has that ever actually shifted the inertia in this country?

The biggest inertia shift we've had in modern times has been 2016, which then led to the conservative control of SCOTUS, which is pretty much the only firewall still trying to keep our forefather's Republic from driving off the cliff...

But it took POTUS candidate coattails down ballot to make that happen...

Foreverconservative said:

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FireAg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Despite all of claims there is no Plan B and Biden will be the nominee for the Dems, I don't think that actually happens.

So in the end, how well Trum polls against Biden would be moot. Ditto for Haley.

---

I'm with you...I truly think the DNC wants to pivot to a different candidate...but I think the Newsom debate test balloon failed to generate any momentum...

Part of me has been wondering if they would try to swap Dr. Jill for Grandpa Joe...We've certainly seen spouses assume the ticket (or seat) from the deceased...could they do the same for the election and just put Dr. Jill on the ballots instead?

They're running out of time to make a change, though...unless they were to pass new rules at the convention to facilitate the swap at that point...

---

Their only choice left is to have a brokered convention, with all the state deadlines they have missed. The last one was in 1924 and was a losing race for the D's.

---

I agree with you...and that's why I think they are planning to do precisely that, and if the D's could push the 25th on Grandpa Joe, yet he's still the primary winner, I think the easiest pathway would be to broker it in favor of Dr. Jill (again, merely pulling on precedent from other elections where a surviving spouse of a deceased winner was given the seat)...

Quote:

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I agree with you...and that's why I think they are planning to do precisely that, and if the D's could push the 25th on Grandpa Joe, yet he's still the primary winner, I think the easiest pathway would be to broker it in favor of Dr. Jill

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Can you imagine the hissy fit Kamala would throw?

FireAg said:

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Phatbob said:

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FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

---

And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

---

Cool...he's going to be the R nominee...so I guess your choices are 3rd party or stay home...

Those are certainly your right...

But if you want to vote R in the general, Trump will be the name at the top unless something drastic and unprecedented happens to him...and again, nothing prevents him from being on ballots if he is in jail...

So it really would have to be something extreme...

---

There is another option. R down ballot and no Presidency vote. I think that will happen quite a bit, if he is the nominee and there is no reasonable 3rd party option.

---

And that is going to change our nation's path how exactly? Everyone always marvels at the power of down-ballot, but when has that ever actually shifted the inertia in this country?

The biggest inertia shift we've had in modern times has been 2016, which then led to the conservative control of SCOTUS, which is pretty much the only firewall still trying to keep our forefather's Republic from driving off the cliff...

But it took POTUS candidate coattails down ballot to make that happen...

---

It adds a data point, just like any other vote. My vote would be one of millions, but my vote for down ballot and not for President might send the message that Trump is the WRONG direction. If anyone cares to look into the numbers, it says I won't vote for a Democrat, but I also won't vote for an incompetent grifter, either. They are not owed my vote just because they aren't Joe Biden... give us better options and earn my vote.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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I agree with you...and that's why I think they are planning to do precisely that, and if the D's could push the 25th on Grandpa Joe, yet he's still the primary winner, I think the easiest pathway would be to broker it in favor of Dr. Jill

---

Can you imagine the hissy fit Kamala would throw?

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I get the impression that no one from the DNC is going to back Kamala...she has been an absolute train wreck, and they are always trying to minimize her visibility...

Phatbob said:

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FireAg said:

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Phatbob said:

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FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

---

And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

---

Cool...he's going to be the R nominee...so I guess your choices are 3rd party or stay home...

Those are certainly your right...

But if you want to vote R in the general, Trump will be the name at the top unless something drastic and unprecedented happens to him...and again, nothing prevents him from being on ballots if he is in jail...

So it really would have to be something extreme...

---

There is another option. R down ballot and no Presidency vote. I think that will happen quite a bit, if he is the nominee and there is no reasonable 3rd party option.

---

And that is going to change our nation's path how exactly? Everyone always marvels at the power of down-ballot, but when has that ever actually shifted the inertia in this country?

The biggest inertia shift we've had in modern times has been 2016, which then led to the conservative control of SCOTUS, which is pretty much the only firewall still trying to keep our forefather's Republic from driving off the cliff...

But it took POTUS candidate coattails down ballot to make that happen...

---

It adds a data point, just like any other vote. My vote would be one of millions, but my vote for down ballot and not for President might send the message that Trump is the WRONG direction. If anyone cares to look into the numbers, it says I won't vote for a Democrat, but I also won't vote for an incompetent grifter, either. They are not owed my vote just because they aren't Joe Biden... give us better options and earn my vote.

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I just don't see micro politics shifting the inertia, my friend...I'm sorry, but I think things are far too gone for that to have any impact whatsoever...

It would certainly make you feel better about yourself and where you personally stand...but it would be shooting a slingshot at a bullet train...

FireAg said:

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Phatbob said:

---

FireAg said:

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Phatbob said:

---

FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

FireAg said:

---

I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

---

And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

---

Cool...he's going to be the R nominee...so I guess your choices are 3rd party or stay home...

Those are certainly your right...

But if you want to vote R in the general, Trump will be the name at the top unless something drastic and unprecedented happens to him...and again, nothing prevents him from being on ballots if he is in jail...

So it really would have to be something extreme...

---

There is another option. R down ballot and no Presidency vote. I think that will happen quite a bit, if he is the nominee and there is no reasonable 3rd party option.

---

And that is going to change our nation's path how exactly? Everyone always marvels at the power of down-ballot, but when has that ever actually shifted the inertia in this country?

The biggest inertia shift we've had in modern times has been 2016, which then led to the conservative control of SCOTUS, which is pretty much the only firewall still trying to keep our forefather's Republic from driving off the cliff...

But it took POTUS candidate coattails down ballot to make that happen...

---

It adds a data point, just like any other vote. My vote would be one of millions, but my vote for down ballot and not for President might send the message that Trump is the WRONG direction. If anyone cares to look into the numbers, it says I won't vote for a Democrat, but I also won't vote for an incompetent grifter, either. They are not owed my vote just because they aren't Joe Biden... give us better options and earn my vote.

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I just don't see micro politics shifting the inertia, my friend...I'm sorry, but I think things are far too gone for that to have any impact whatsoever...

It would certainly make you feel better about yourself and where you personally stand...but it would be shooting a slingshot at a bullet train...

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I disagree. A vote for Trump because he is 1 tic better than Biden is indistinguishable from a "I love how he treats me like a 3rd grader, owns the libs, and pushed but didn't quite mandate the vax" vote for Trump. THAT would be throwing away my voice at the ballot box.

FireAg said:

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aggie93 said:

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FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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And let me add this...

If they can use lawfare against Trump to keep him out of office...what makes anyone think that the establishment can't use the same tactics against any other non-establishment candidate, including Ron DeSantis?

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They can TRY. And they will.

Is that a reason to vote for Trump?

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You don't seem to get it...there is nothing to stop them from doing it, and nothing to stop them from being successful at it...

Voting for Trump or voting for DeSantis isn't even the argument...if the establishment doesn't want you in office because you are a threat to their vision of this nation (and the global, progressive society at large) there is quite literally nothing to stop it...outside of armed conflict and redoing this thing called 'America' from scratch...

Our laws are being used against us, and the media is absolutley pushing only one side of the narrative (as they did with Steelem, quid pro quo, Jan 6, Floyd, Covid, and the persecution that Trump has specifically endured since being removed from office)... I know hawg hopes it doesn't get to soem sort of civil conflict, but I frankly see no other recourse to stop it...

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Sorry but there is very little in common between Desantis and Trump when it comes to this. DeSantis has repeatedly won against the Establishment. He's removed Soros prosecutors. He's won elections. He's passed bills. He's won his lawsuits. He runs a super tight ship and understands the law.

Trump just scattershoots and has crappy follow up. He surrounds himself with idiots or untrustworthy people He constantly falls into traps and he loves to pick fights with nothing to gain.

Will the Establishment come after both of them? Sure, but we know Trump will lose. The concept that just because Trump sucks at this that everyone else will too is such an eye roll.

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You are woefully naive if you think they won't put a stop to DeSantis if/when he gets a chance some day to inact his approach on a national scale...

Please understand (as most of your brethern don't seem to get this), I absolutely LOVE what DeSantis has accomplished, and I would love nothing more than to see him try to accomplish it from the Oval Office...I just see no way on earth he avoids a similar fate to Trump... His lack of flambuoyancy certainly makes him a harder target, but if the establishment thinks DeSantis is a threat to their vision of society, they WILL take him down, and they will use the same blueprints against him that they have used against Trump...

DeSantis isn't teflon nor kevlar...he can be gotten to using these same tactics...

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I think DeSantis at least has a chance to win. I didn't say he was perfect. I just don't get the logic of "well we know Trump is completely screwed but since he is screwed everyone else is to. No need to try anything different."

You can try different…but the DeSantis try for this cycle will come up short…so the point is moot…

FireAg said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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FireAg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Despite all of claims there is no Plan B and Biden will be the nominee for the Dems, I don't think that actually happens.

So in the end, how well Trum polls against Biden would be moot. Ditto for Haley.

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I'm with you...I truly think the DNC wants to pivot to a different candidate...but I think the Newsom debate test balloon failed to generate any momentum...

Part of me has been wondering if they would try to swap Dr. Jill for Grandpa Joe...We've certainly seen spouses assume the ticket (or seat) from the deceased...could they do the same for the election and just put Dr. Jill on the ballots instead?

They're running out of time to make a change, though...unless they were to pass new rules at the convention to facilitate the swap at that point...

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Their only choice left is to have a brokered convention, with all the state deadlines they have missed. The last one was in 1924 and was a losing race for the D's.

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I agree with you...and that's why I think they are planning to do precisely that, and if the D's could push the 25th on Grandpa Joe, yet he's still the primary winner, I think the easiest pathway would be to broker it in favor of Dr. Jill (again, merely pulling on precedent from other elections where a surviving spouse of a deceased winner was given the seat)...

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I'm sorry, but you're waaaaaaaay out on a pencil-think limb with this one.

I didn't say it was a good theory…I simply haven't been able to find a better one, but I'm open to other suggestions…

Foreverconservative said:

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FireAg said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Despite all of claims there is no Plan B and Biden will be the nominee for the Dems, I don't think that actually happens.

So in the end, how well Trum polls against Biden would be moot. Ditto for Haley.

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I'm with you...I truly think the DNC wants to pivot to a different candidate...but I think the Newsom debate test balloon failed to generate any momentum...

Part of me has been wondering if they would try to swap Dr. Jill for Grandpa Joe...We've certainly seen spouses assume the ticket (or seat) from the deceased...could they do the same for the election and just put Dr. Jill on the ballots instead?

They're running out of time to make a change, though...unless they were to pass new rules at the convention to facilitate the swap at that point...

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Their only choice left is to have a brokered convention, with all the state deadlines they have missed. The last one was in 1924 and was a losing race for the D's.

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All they have to do is get Joe to die or drop out. There is plenty of momentum to find an alternative, it's just who. When you have the MSM carrying water for you that helps tremendously because they can hide how the sausage gets made and most Dems really don't care, they have shown they will vote for terrible candidates without hesitation. It's not like Republicans are much better.

Internal polling is very different from these polls that are released.

ttu_85 said:

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AggieVictor10 said:

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How the **** is trump so far ahead of everyone?

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Mystery to me. almost everyone I am close to is a conservative and maybe 2 out of 50 are Trump backers. Most people I know think he is a man-child moron with his goofy nicknames and refusal to debate or talk policy.

I dont get these numbers the MSM is reporting in their polls. I bet here on Texags only 30% back Trump.

Given I haven't trusted the MSM in 3 decades, I'll wait for actual voting before drawing any conclusions.

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unfortunately just look at the Trump defenders on TexAgs.

it's hard to even see one type a full sentence in English.

Trump appeals to the lowest common denominator of populist independents who do not follow politics closely.

unfortunately there are many such listless vessels in the voting population.

FireAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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FireAg said:

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I think it's hyperbole myself...but I do think there is some underlying truth in it because, if it can be done to Trump, it can be done to anyone...and as hawg points out, there's literally nothing to stop up...

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And that is still not any kind of a reason to vote for Trump.

I agree that they will try with whomever is the GOP nominee, though.

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Cool...he's going to be the R nominee...so I guess your choices are 3rd party or stay home...

Those are certainly your right...

But if you want to vote R in the general, Trump will be the name at the top unless something drastic and unprecedented happens to him...and again, nothing prevents him from being on ballots if he is in jail...

So it really would have to be something extreme...

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And again, none of that is a reason to vote FOR Trump.