FireAg said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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DeSantis needs to do more of this. Every day, call Trump a coward and challenge him to a 1 on 1 debate.

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Won't work...you don't win over Trump supporters by ****ting on the man they support...then you look like the establishment that is just out there trying to get Trump...


You wanna make waves? Challenge Biden...right now...1 on 1...call him a demented empty suit who can't put two coherent sentences together...who doesn't know whether to scratch his watch or wind his ass...who salutes and shakes hands with empty space...

Steel Trump's thunder by BYPASSING Trump, and show Trump supporters that you are willing to go to the mat and scream at the top of your lungs that the emperor has no clothes...

THAT would grab a headline or two...

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No, it would be an eye roll and Biden would laugh about it since DeSantis is not leading for the nomination and Trump would make fun of him as well. It would look desperate.

FireAg said:

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Seems by most accounts, DeSantis did win the night...

My question is...did he do enough where his appeal is greater than the overall, unmitigated mess the debate forum was for most of the night last night...

He's getting good reviews, but the story of the night seems to be the unorganized **** show that Fox/Univision put on TV last night... The other story seems to be Mike Pence's career in stand up comedy was dead before it left the station...

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Americans have the attention spans of gnats

no one remembers what happened in August, much less people remembering a disorganized debate structure 5 months from now.

they WILL remember however who sounded Presidential, who has actually accomplished something, and who is putting in the time to campaign.

who can remember the latest Trump scandal from 3 months ago when there is another one 2 months ago and another one 1 month ago?

most of this, as Ag93 explains is just white noise. but the "broad brush strokes" will remain.

But we do at least have real evidence that the way he has been doing things really hasn't improved his chances of winning the R nomination...

So there is proof that doing it the way he has been, is not working...

And I say to you, you have no way of knowing if it can be changed until you play the game the way Trump played it to get his, as you put it, "demigod status"...

Trump stole headlines...Trump was in your face...Trump makes you remember him...it might be in a positive way, or it might be in a negative way, but make no mistake...people remember Trump because he makes himself unforgettable...

BD88 said:

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aggie93 said:

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Early returns sound strong for DeSantis. Got a few nice moments in and didn't get into the bickering. The close was solid as he told the Moderators what everyone was thinking all night. Ended up better than I expected based on how the first half went filled with chaos and Pence and Burghum seeming to get most of the time as if they were working in reverse order of importance.

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Early returns?

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An online poll with a time limit (so clearly just a matter of who has the best bot army?) Ok.

Focus groups, talking heads, etc are the story for now. In a day or two we will have some polling but that's hard to measure because it's hard to know who actually watched the debate.

Anyone that thinks Vivek won that debate though is not serious, he clearly was not as strong as the first debate and his only decent moment was the Birthright Citizenship thing which was fine but it's a distraction to anyone that understands it will take a lot more than Vivek saying that the way he reads the Constitution is what matters. BTW, Vivek was also the child of non citizens (though legal immigrants) at the time. It would be pretty easy to basically say by his own logic maybe he shouldn't even be eligible to be President since he has brought up that foreign dignitaries children aren't citizens.

I had some concerns about Vivek for a while but I think his 15 minutes is up at this point and he is fading.

Really? Think so?

Polling says the opposite...and not just slightly...it's "bigly"..."yuuuuuuge", if you will...

FireAg said:

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But we do at least have real evidence that the way he has been doing things really hasn't improved his chances of winning the R nomination...

So there is proof that doing it the way he has been, is not working...

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I said as much. The question is what could he have done and more importantly what can he do to change it. You think doing a Trump knock off thing is the way to go, I think it's more about finding ways to work to his strengths and go do more confrontational interviews for instance. I think he has focused more on the "I'm not going to elevate the MSM by doing lots of interviews with him" strategy that worked on the state level but it doesn't work on the national. I think he would do well talking to just about anyone, maybe not going too extreme but certainly more than he has. He's great at 1v1 interviews.

I also think there are a lot of small tactics with his social media that have been flawed. His best content is on DeSantis War Room and NBD but those have smaller followings. He needs to find ways to get that content pushed by using his personal account more which has far more followers. Things like that.

DeSantis also has a very unusual problem for a politician, he really doesn't brag enough or take enough credit for his W's. He does to an extent but most people know only a fraction of what he has accomplished.

I was glad to see he is going on Maher, he just needs to do a lot more of that type of thing.

FireAg said:

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And I say to you, you have no way of knowing if it can be changed until you play the game the way Trump played it to get his, as you put it, "demigod status"...

Trump stole headlines...Trump was in your face...Trump makes you remember him...it might be in a positive way, or it might be in a negative way, but make no mistake...people remember Trump because he makes himself unforgettable...

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That's not so much because of his campaign though, it's because he had decades of being a huge celebrity BEFORE he ran.

Ugh...most people don't watch those shows, man...no one cares what Bill Maher is saying anymore...barely anyone cares what Sean Hannity is saying...

Maher currently enjoys a 0.26 share, equaling roughly 800K viewers...that's about 1/3 the viewership for Hannity (2.4M viewers)... And I argue most folks in America don't set their alarm clocks so they don't miss an episode of Hannity...let alone Maher...

Sit down interviews ain't gettin' it done...it's the wrong approach...

aggie93 said:

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FireAg said:

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And I say to you, you have no way of knowing if it can be changed until you play the game the way Trump played it to get his, as you put it, "demigod status"...

Trump stole headlines...Trump was in your face...Trump makes you remember him...it might be in a positive way, or it might be in a negative way, but make no mistake...people remember Trump because he makes himself unforgettable...

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That's not so much because of his campaign though, it's because he had decades of being a huge celebrity BEFORE he ran.

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Then it is his campaign's JOB to figure out what it takes to quickly elevate him to such celebrity-like status in order to compete... His campaign is assuming the wrong paradigm...

They are pounding on the doors in neighborhoods talking about the steak, right? Awesome ground game, right? That's how you used to win...you don't win that way today... The paradigm shifted...the DeSantis campaign didn't get the memo....

Americans in general (again, for better or worse...it's a sad statement on our society, if you ask me, but I can't change it) want the sizzle before they will pull up a chair to enjoy the steak... Until you give them some eye candy, they won't look your way...

FireAg said:

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aggie93 said:

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FireAg said:

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And I say to you, you have no way of knowing if it can be changed until you play the game the way Trump played it to get his, as you put it, "demigod status"...

Trump stole headlines...Trump was in your face...Trump makes you remember him...it might be in a positive way, or it might be in a negative way, but make no mistake...people remember Trump because he makes himself unforgettable...

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That's not so much because of his campaign though, it's because he had decades of being a huge celebrity BEFORE he ran.

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Then it is his campaign's JOB to figure out what it takes to quickly elevate him to such celebrity-like status in order to compete... His campaign is assuming the wrong paradigm...

They are pounding on the doors in neighborhoods talking about the steak, right? Awesome ground game, right? That's how you used to win...you don't win that way today... The paradigm shifted...the DeSantis campaign didn't get the memo....

Americans in general (again, for better or worse...it's a sad statement on our society, if you ask me, but I can't change it) want the sizzle before they will pull up a chair to enjoy the steak... Until you give them some eye candy, they won't look your way...

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No it's not. It's his campaigns job to get him to win the primary, not make a bunch of headlines in the months leading up to it. Their strategy has focused on ground game, we won't know if it worked or not until the first primary votes are cast.

Phatbob said:

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I have been hopeful about DeSantis making inroads with the Republican base, but I am starting to come to the realization that while we have compared Trumpism to a cult, it really literally is a cult. All of the reasons for supporting him have all been shown to be different levels of BS, like, obvious BS, and they admit they just don't care. They are more than willing to drink the Koolaid fully knowing that it is poisoned and they don't care. No, I will not be supporting the R nominee if it is Trump. Is the left bad? Yes. Is Trump as bad? Not in the same way, but yes. Not because of who he is, he's nothing special, but what the way we act for him.

We. Are. Fooked.

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"Don't Give Up the Ship!"

yes, your analysis is correct about Trumpism. But there is still time to stop them,

and the battle will continue even after Trump loses in August 2024 or November 2024. Need to stay engaged and take back the party.

"Ron DeSantis won" the debate, says @tedcruz.

“DeSantis had the best answers of the night.” pic.twitter.com/e05mz3IFRL

— DeSantis War Room 🐊 (@DeSantisWarRoom) September 28, 2023

“He’s had a lot to say about me on social media…It’s one thing to do it behind a keyboard. Step up on stage and do it to my face.”

NEW: DeSantis challenges Trump to a 1x1 debate, calls him out for running on his failed promises from 2016.

“He owes it to the voters to defend… pic.twitter.com/9uEM10oPz3

— DeSantis War Room 🐊 (@DeSantisWarRoom) September 28, 2023

He needs to stay on that. Every appearance he should call him out for a 1 on 1 debate

FireAg said:

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Ugh...most people don't watch those shows, man...no one cares what Bill Maher is saying anymore...barely anyone cares what Sean Hannity is saying...

Maher currently enjoys a 0.26 share, equaling roughly 800K viewers...that's about 1/3 the viewership for Hannity (2.4M viewers)... And I argue most folks in America don't set their alarm clocks so they don't miss an episode of Hannity...let alone Maher...

Sit down interviews ain't gettin' it done...it's the wrong approach...

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It's about the right type of activity. Going on Maher has the opportunity to create viral content and it attracts Swing voters. My greater point is he needs to do more and more national shows and in more interesting venues than talking to other conservatives. I mean it's great listening to him on Levin or Beck where they are agreeing with each other but he needs to do more. Don't know that he needs to go full Vivek but he needs to keep getting out there.

Viral content for who? Those few that are paying attention or to the vast majority who is captivated by anything other than politics?

Phatbob said:

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He needs to stay on that. Every appearance he should call him out for a 1 on 1 debate

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Absolutely. Bullies like Trump run from actual conflict and thrive off their opponents avoiding them.

one thing that everyone is missing is the Koch network of $37 million sitting there waiting to be given to one of the Trump challengers next month.

it really doesn't matter what keyboard warriors think-

it just matters what the Koch Foundation folks think.

I am guessing they are seeing that Scott doesn't have it, that Haley and DeSantis will be the final two remaining to challenge Trump.

the people of Iowa are hearing and seeing DeSantis all the time.

it doesn't matter if certain people in Texas are not.

either DeSantis can perform well in Iowa or he can't.

that is what it comes down to.

FireAg said:

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aggie93 said:

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FireAg said:

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And I say to you, you have no way of knowing if it can be changed until you play the game the way Trump played it to get his, as you put it, "demigod status"...

Trump stole headlines...Trump was in your face...Trump makes you remember him...it might be in a positive way, or it might be in a negative way, but make no mistake...people remember Trump because he makes himself unforgettable...

---

That's not so much because of his campaign though, it's because he had decades of being a huge celebrity BEFORE he ran.

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Then it is his campaign's JOB to figure out what it takes to quickly elevate him to such celebrity-like status in order to compete... His campaign is assuming the wrong paradigm...

They are pounding on the doors in neighborhoods talking about the steak, right? Awesome ground game, right? That's how you used to win...you don't win that way today... The paradigm shifted...the DeSantis campaign didn't get the memo....

Americans in general (again, for better or worse...it's a sad statement on our society, if you ask me, but I can't change it) want the sizzle before they will pull up a chair to enjoy the steak... Until you give them some eye candy, they won't look your way...

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Essentially your argument is that they just need to be something they aren't and can't be. DeSantis is not a celebrity personality and he won't be. In the end that may cost him the election or it may win it for him as a backlash. DeSantis is never going to out Trump Trump though. He can do more things to get himself more publicity for sure but he simply doesn't have the personality or the connections in the media to be a ratings machine like Trump.

To put it another way think about the movie Moneyball. DeSantis can't win the WS by going out and hiring the most expensive Free Agents. He has to find a different way to win employing a different strategy. Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't but it is the long game and we just don't know. It will likely take some type of screw up by Trump honestly and with him that is always possible. I mean there is a very real chance he just has a health issue as well at his age.

I know you love polls but the most interesting one to me is Trump's "Trump and only Trump" numbers are still only around 20-25%. The "Not Trump" is around 35%. That leaves a lot of fluidity, especially because DeSantis has kept his favorables high. The potential to shift is still very much there and that middle 40-50% may be leaning his way now but they aren't locked up.

Make no mistake, Trump is in the far stronger position but he also has not put this away yet. Outside of the vocal base the support is soft. If DeSantis can keep pushing out the other candidates and make this into a 2 man race it's a very different conversation. Last night helped him there. It's about winning the war of attrition for now.

We will see.

LMCane said:

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one thing that everyone is missing is the Koch network of $37 million sitting there waiting to be given to one of the Trump challengers next month.

it really doesn't matter what keyboard warriors think-

it just matters what the Koch Foundation folks think.

I am guessing they are seeing that Scott doesn't have it, that Haley and DeSantis will be the final two remaining to challenge Trump.

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I think that matters but it will also be used against DeSantis if he gets that money. Koch is very open borders so they won't go with DeSantis unless they have to. What happens with Haley will be something to watch but Haley also has no chance of winning the nomination.

Also need to see how the financial reporting turns out which is coming shortly. Hopefully that debate gives DeSantis a boost at the end of the Q.

FireAg said:

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Viral content for who? Those few that are paying attention or to the vast majority who is captivated by anything other than politics?

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Still lots of people who are engaged, especially in Iowa and NH. I mean I'm not saying that it would be great if DeSantis could have some giant celebrity moment where the world stops and gets excited by him (especially people who aren't engaged in politics right now) but if that is what he needs then he's almost certain to lose anyway. I just don't think that is a requirement.

I do think his debate with Newsom is going to be an event though, I just wish it was Tucker or someone less annoying than Hannity moderating. The timing of Nov 30 is great as well, it if happened now it would fade. I think both of those guys want to run against each other and it's the best piece of luck Desantis has had publicity wise. December is when Obama made his move against Hillary and I think DeSantis is looking at the same time frame.

Trump still is in the driver's seat but it's not over. I also don't think DeSantis need a home run shot nor does he need to have a massive swing in the polls right now. Both would be great of course but they are unlikely and not required for him to win. Now if we are still seeing the polls stagnant going into January then he's probably screwed, that's just months away and as you said the vast majority of people are not captivated by politics right now.

BREAKING: 538/Washington Post/Ipsos poll finds @RonDeSantis won the #GOPdebate

Q: No matter how you plan to vote, who do you think performed best in the Republican primary debate?

DeSantis 33%
Haley 18
Ramaswamy 15
None 9
Don't know/skipped 8
Christie 6
Scott 6
Pence 3
Burgum 2

— Matt Wolking (@MattWolking) September 28, 2023

I'm old enough to remember John McCain and John Kerry walking by themselves in the Iowa snow and their campaigns being out of money and firing all their staff

only to go on and win their nominations 4 months later.

Short on Money, McCain Campaign Dismisses Dozens
By Carl Hulse and Adam Nagourney

• July 3, 2007

The presidential campaign of Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who once seemed poised to be his party's nominee in 2008, acknowledged yesterday that it was in a political and financial crisis as a drop in fund-raising forced it to dismiss dozens of workers and aides and retool its strategy on where to compete.

The campaign said the decline in contributions had left it with $2 million.

It said it had raised just $11.2 million over the last three months, despite Mr. McCain's promise to do better than his anemic $13 million showing in the first three months of the year.

McCain campaign dead in late 2007

Congratulations to @RonDeSantis on being the undisputed winner of last night's debate!https://t.co/6IUFkY5WCE#nhpolitics #fitn pic.twitter.com/jSrorFreXz

— 𝙍𝙤𝙨𝙨 𝘽𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙮 (@Ross_Berry) September 28, 2023

Trump down in the Rust Belt

🇺🇲 2024 GE: @ppppolls (Dem)

PA:
(D) Biden 48% (+3)
(R) Trump 45%
---
MI:
(D) Biden 48% (+4)
(R) Trump 44%
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WI:
(D) Biden 48% (+4)
(R) Trump 44%
——
Trump fav/unfav
MI: 35-58 (-23)
WI: 35/55 (-20)
PA: 38/54 (-16)
——@saveactionfund | N=2,024 | 9/25-27https://t.co/82yIIpcxhd pic.twitter.com/OnnuHPNkYa

— InteractivePolls (@IAPolls2022) September 28, 2023

So the new Trump flex is that the DeSantis attacks are being used by Biden so that's DeSantis' fault for telling the truth. They not only think the race is over they think DeSantis must stop attacking Trump because it weakens him. I mean no self reflection here, we should just accept that Trump has these flaws and not talk about them.

Amazing.

Biden DeSantis 2024 https://t.co/Ifum1BNBVI

— Tim Pool (@Timcast) September 28, 2023

Wow who could have predicted this

DeSantis gifted Biden the ultimate out on inflation

Biden will play this over and over and over - it’s called a Scumbagging Op pic.twitter.com/FrejRve0Zb

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) September 28, 2023

aggie93 said:

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So the new Trump flex is that the DeSantis attacks are being used by Biden so that's DeSantis' fault for telling the truth. They not only think the race is over they think DeSantis must stop attacking Trump because it weakens him. I mean no self reflection here, we should just accept that Trump has these flaws and not talk about them.

Amazing.

Biden DeSantis 2024 https://t.co/Ifum1BNBVI

— Tim Pool (@Timcast) September 28, 2023

Wow who could have predicted this

DeSantis gifted Biden the ultimate out on inflation

Biden will play this over and over and over - it’s called a Scumbagging Op pic.twitter.com/FrejRve0Zb

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) September 28, 2023

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The right *******s are squealing.

This could end up being a problem with DeSantis joining the Biden ticket.

The Biden family is potentially the most corrupt presidential family in history.

I absolutely support impeachment. pic.twitter.com/nR57DbP5p4

— Ron DeSantis (@RonDeSantis) September 28, 2023

There were 3 sold out fundraisers in CA yesterday not 1.

Trump gives his objective and reasoned evaluation of the debate. I mean who wouldn't want someone so articulate and inspiring as their leader?

aggie93 said:

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Trump gives his objective and reasoned evaluation of the debate. I mean who wouldn't want someone so articulate and inspiring as their leader?

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Trump analysis of other Republicans:



Maga reaction:

Don't forget he said Christie should drop out, after calling Trump Donald Duck for ducking the debate, because anyone making up names like that shouldn't be running for President.

Rapier108 said:

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Don't forget he said Christie should drop out, after calling Trump Donald Duck for ducking the debate, because anyone making up names like that shouldn't be running for President.

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Literally his only means of evaluation is how nice someone is to him.