TRM said:

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TRM said:

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From the same poll. Lots of eyes will be on it.

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So 20-25% is MAGA which is about what most legitimate polls have said.

Others support Trump, but they are not devoted to him and only him.

People are still shopping around for the most part.

DeSantis is about to get another boost.

Iowa's pro-life leaders rally behind DeSantis after Trump attacks heartbeat bill:

"It’s time to coalesce around a leader we know will fight to defend the sanctity of human life and won’t compromise away our values – and that leader is Ron DeSantis.” - Maggie DeWitte. https://t.co/SUt56PMJ6q

— Dave Vasquez (@DaveVasquezFL) September 27, 2023

I really can't understand the logic or strategy in Trump deciding to attack the pro-life movement before the Iowa Caucuses.

as if leftists in the general election will now be thinking in November 2024:

"sure I have hated and despised Trump for 8 years now, and he is a corrupt and vile liar, and he is likely going to jail, but he is pro-choice so I guess I will vote for him over Biden/Newsome!"

LMCane said:

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I really can't understand the logic or strategy in Trump deciding to attack the pro-life movement before the Iowa Caucuses.

as if leftists in the general election will now be thinking in November 2024:

"sure I have hated and despised Trump for 8 years now, and he is a corrupt and vile liar, and he is likely going to jail, but he is pro-choice so I guess I will vote for him over Biden/Newsome!"

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I kind of do. He's decided that the Primary is over and pivoted to the General. He very well could be right. Your point is still correct though. He's still one of the most hated politicians of all time.

Except, he hasn't pivoted to the general - he's still spending money against DeSantis.

TRM said:

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People are still shopping around for the most part.

DeSantis is about to get another boost.

Iowa's pro-life leaders rally behind DeSantis after Trump attacks heartbeat bill:

"It’s time to coalesce around a leader we know will fight to defend the sanctity of human life and won’t compromise away our values – and that leader is Ron DeSantis.” - Maggie DeWitte. https://t.co/SUt56PMJ6q

— Dave Vasquez (@DaveVasquezFL) September 27, 2023

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I am betting the over on how many people bring this up tonight.

Trump is here to endorse 46% pay raises for Democratic donors and driving up the cost of vehicles massively https://t.co/GlF60TboJh

— Sunny McSunnyface (@sunnyright) September 28, 2023

TRM said:

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Trump is here to endorse 46% pay raises for Democratic donors and driving up the cost of vehicles massively https://t.co/GlF60TboJh

— Sunny McSunnyface (@sunnyright) September 28, 2023

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Just once, it would be nice to see one of the only and forever Trumpers say old Don is wrong about something.

But if one goes and look at Free Republic, their thread about Trump's speech is a couple of hundred replies about how great it was, everything he said was right, tens of thousands were lined up to bask in Trump's presence, and trillions were watching it live. Conservative forum my ass.

Then 500+ posts about the GOP debate, mostly trashing DeSantis.

Hallelujah! @BillMaher is back with a new episode of #RealTime feat. FL Gov. @RonDeSantis, @MakingSenseHQ host Sam Harris and #EndOfDiscussion author @mkhammer FRIDAY @ 10pm on @HBO + @StreamOnMax! pic.twitter.com/f6lha9x5h6

— Real Time with Bill Maher (@RealTimers) September 28, 2023

DeSantis wins CNN focus group in Iowa, although they also liked Haley

— Rich Lowry (@RichLowry) September 28, 2023

Early returns sound strong for DeSantis. Got a few nice moments in and didn't get into the bickering. The close was solid as he told the Moderators what everyone was thinking all night. Ended up better than I expected based on how the first half went filled with chaos and Pence and Burghum seeming to get most of the time as if they were working in reverse order of importance.

Seems by most accounts, DeSantis did win the night...

My question is...did he do enough where his appeal is greater than the overall, unmitigated mess the debate forum was for most of the night last night...

He's getting good reviews, but the story of the night seems to be the unorganized **** show that Fox/Univision put on TV last night... The other story seems to be Mike Pence's career in stand up comedy was dead before it left the station...

I have been hopeful about DeSantis making inroads with the Republican base, but I am starting to come to the realization that while we have compared Trumpism to a cult, it really literally is a cult. All of the reasons for supporting him have all been shown to be different levels of BS, like, obvious BS, and they admit they just don't care. They are more than willing to drink the Koolaid fully knowing that it is poisoned and they don't care. No, I will not be supporting the R nominee if it is Trump. Is the left bad? Yes. Is Trump as bad? Not in the same way, but yes. Not because of who he is, he's nothing special, but what the way we act for him.

We. Are. Fooked.

FireAg said:

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Seems by most accounts, DeSantis did win the night...

My question is...did he do enough where his appeal is greater than the overall, unmitigated mess the debate forum was for most of the night last night...

He's getting good reviews, but the story of the night seems to be the unorganized **** show that Fox/Univision put on TV last night... The other story seems to be Mike Pence's career in stand up comedy was dead before it left the station...

---

This was a small battle in a longer war but it was a good night for DeSantis, better than the first debate.

Strategically he had a few things he needed to do in this debate:

1. Not make a major mistake. Check.

2. Have a few good soundbyte moments and try to get something memorable if you can. That ending was great because it hits to exactly your point, everyone agreed the moderators and debate itself was a disaster and DeSantis just stopped them in their tracks and said he wasn't going to participate in the "who do you vote off the island" nonsense and even better said it was disrespectful to all the competitors on stage. It showed him as an adult in the middle of a chaotic mess. Check.

3. Have it made obvious that the debate stage needs to reduce for the next debate and for pressure to build for people to drop out. Check.

That's about the best he could have done. Honestly it was a pretty stacked deck against him. The Moderators let it become a crapshow and the theme was making it look like anyone there was damaged by it. They gave the least popular candidates (Borghum and Pence) a LOT of time and they let everyone yell over each other. That's not DeSantis' game typically and he got a little off here and there as you can tell it was very hard to concentrate in that mess and he doesn't like to be rude (nor would getting into a yelling match have helped him). I think all but people who are die hards for another candidate watched that and saw him as someone who was Presidential and acceptable even if he isn't their first choice.

Essentially he made lemons out of lemonade. He certainly didn't win the nomination last night. Who knows how much momentum he gets out of it at all, a lot of people may have tuned out after the first few minutes. This is a marathon not a sprint and he is going to have to slug it out with all of the other contenders and then pressure to get Trump on the stage. That's the key goal for him now. If that happens though I think this race could change very quickly. DeSantis is very good at this and he could end up really hammering Trump if they ever get on the stage together. Or if he can't then at least we will be able to see Trump really does still have it.

We will see.

Good assessment. There is still plenty of time for this to play out and DeSantis to succeed.

Phatbob said:

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I have been hopeful about DeSantis making inroads with the Republican base, but I am starting to come to the realization that while we have compared Trumpism to a cult, it really literally is a cult. All of the reasons for supporting him have all been shown to be different levels of BS, like, obvious BS, and they admit they just don't care. They are more than willing to drink the Koolaid fully knowing that it is poisoned and they don't care. No, I will not be supporting the R nominee if it is Trump. Is the left bad? Yes. Is Trump as bad? Not in the same way, but yes. Not because of who he is, he's nothing special, but what the way we act for him.

We. Are. Fooked.

---

The Trump base is about 20-25%. Then there is another 35% that are Trump friendly but are open. The other 35-40% don't want Trump period. The key for DeSantis is being able to knock out the other contenders to consolidate the 35/40% no Trump vote and pick off half of the Trump friendly vote. It's tricky because each of the other candidates is targeting one lane whereas DeSantis is targeting all of them outside of the Trump base (which is only voting Trump in the Primary anyway). DeSantis has to hit Trump but hit him on issues. He has to show he isn't Traditional GOP but he also has to be seen as a better alternative to Trump for them. It's definitely threading a needle on board a ship in a storm.

You just hear the Trump base a lot because they scream loudly and they always infer that the Trump friendly folks are part of their team even though they aren't. The reality is that Trump's big lead is a double edged sword for him as well. If things start to coalesce around DeSantis and he picks up some momentum with Trump starting to lose it things could snowball for him. Trump's strongest asset is the air of inevitability, shatter that and everything changes.

Of course Trump may just coast along and never have to debate or be challenged as well. We will see. Still months more of this before we even start to vote.

Part of the issue is that Trump occupies the minds of so many...for whatever reason, he has had such an impact on recent American culture that folks can't stop themselves from continuing to keep him relevant...

For example...your first post on this thread post-debate (one in which Trump didn't participate in) focused on...you guessed it...Donald Trump... Not on how DeSantis performed, and not on how by most accounts, he won the night... But it was to make a public statement about how much you loathe Trump while declaring your refusal to to ever vote for the man... So even though DeSantis is your guy, you can't help but give Trump a piece of the spotlight...

That's not an attack on you...it's an observation about where we, as a society, stand today... Even those that loathe the man can't help but to bring his name up...

PT Barnum (ironically accurate reference, for the point I'm about to make) said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity." Oscar Wilde (as I have noted previously) wrote, "There's only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." Whether one loves or hates Donald Trump, they all will talk about him and keep him center stage, even when he literally isn't even on the stage...

The obsession with Trump, both good and bad (hell, even those who might reach for the term 'evil') is always at a fever pitch...and for better or worse, that's what creates his echo chamber... He doesn't have to lift a finger to be talked about by folks on literally all sides... He is, without question, the master of showmanship in modern times... I don't say that as being either a positive or negative trait, but it is a reality... Donald Trump remains not only relevant, but prominently relevant, because we, as a society, refuse to stop focusing on him...stop talking about him...

DeSantis will not be the R nominee this cycle unless Trump is removed from the equation... And why? Because regardless of his incredible background, experience, and as some say "skins on the wall" showing results, folks can't help but obsess (whether positively or negatively) over Donald Trump...

FireAg said:

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Part of the issue is that Trump occupies the minds of so many...for whatever reason, he has had such an impact on recent American culture that folks can't stop themselves from continuing to keep him relevant...

For example...your first post on this thread post-debate (one in which Trump didn't participate in) focused on...you guessed it...Donald Trump... Not on how DeSantis performed, and not on how by most accounts, he won the night... But it was to make a public statement about how much you loathe Trump while declaring your refusal to to ever vote for the man... So even though DeSantis is your guy, you can't help but give Trump a piece of the spotlight...

That's not an attack on you...it's an observation about where we, as a society, stand today... Even those that loathe the man can't help but to bring his name up...

PT Barnum (ironically accurate reference, for the point I'm about to make) said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity." Oscar Wilde (as I have noted previously) wrote, "There's only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." Whether one loves or hates Donald Trump, they all will talk about him and keep him center stage, even when he literally isn't even on the stage...

The obsession with Trump, both good and bad (hell, even those who might reach for the term 'evil') is always at a fever pitch...and for better or worse, that's what creates his echo chamber... He doesn't have to lift a finger to be talked about by folks on literally all sides... He is, without question, the master of showmanship in modern times... I don't say that as being either a positive or negative trait, but it is a reality... Donald Trump remains not only relevant, but prominently relevant, because we, as a society, refuse to stop focusing on him...stop talking about him...

DeSantis will not be the R nominee this cycle unless Trump is removed from the equation... And why? Because regardless of his incredible background, experience, and as some say "skins on the wall" showing results, folks can't help but obsess (whether positively or negatively) over Donald Trump...

---

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but it's like trying to get a person off of Meth. How do you get them to stop doing something that is damaging when the person doesn't care, they just want the Meth. You can describe how bad the Meth is for them, you can give them the rosey picture of life without Meth, but they just like the feelings Meth gives them and are hooked. It's not necessarily something we can fix, that is why I think we're fooked.

My reply has more to do with the last 24 hours of non-debate related issues than the debate. We don't have cable and Rumble had connection issues for me that made it unwatchable, so I couldn't even really see it.

The response from Trump supporters from other things, like his abortion statements, are what made my mind up. When all the pillars of logic for support crumble, and they can acknowledge that fact but still do it anyways, that's dangerous. That is a relationship that needs to end for the health of the country. Like I said, Trump is nothing special, we are the problem.

On the heels of yesterday's critical court ruling ordering the death of the fabled Trump Organization, lawyers for Donald Trump appeared in court on Wednesday to pick up the pieces and make sense of how this can possibly get any worse for the former president.

Huge sections of the Trump family's real estate empire are having their business licenses revoked, and the Trumps are losing control of their companies to a court-appointed official.

The trial set to start next week threatens to empty their bank accounts too.

Half a day after Justice Arthur F. Engoron's Tuesday ruling, it's evident the real estate tycoon and his lawyers still aren't sure what will happen to Trump's Monopoly board collection of buildings in Manhattan and elsewhere.

Actually a very fine analogy...

I offered my thoughts on how to change the narrative early on, and several on here mocked me...

In my opinion, the only way to get them away from the meth is to offer them what they think is meth from a different angle...

Again, this is not a society based on principles and grit...this is a society that spends its time worried about who was eliminated on "The Voice" or whether or not Taylor Swift showed up at a football game...

This society, needs the sizzle...if the steak sizzles, and they believe sizzle means Wagyu filet, then they buy the sizzle, even if they are being served USDA Choice rump roast...

Early on I said that to change the narrative...to shift the paradigm...DeSantis needed to grab a headline or two... Find a way to say "something" that, while outlandish, would appeal to those leaning right and force those on the left to talk about...

Folks here argued that he had the skins on the wall from his time as Governor in Florida to play the high road game...that was wrong... He needed to get nasty... For example (and I'm sure there are others), go after Biden...make fun of his dementia...show that he is a sideshow in office... Start hammering the Hunter stuff and lashing out at certain networks who refused to cover it, and start asking why? Hell, he could have won a lot of hearts and minds being outspoken on the multiple political witch hunts Trump has endured and started talking about ways he would ends such nonsense and stop the persecution... Hell, maybe even go after a couple of alphabet agency heads...start calling them out for their blatant shenanigans the same way he went after Disney...

Make some waves...piss some people off...

He hasn't done any of this in a way that grabs headlines and forces people to listen to him... He comes across as a very stoic, well-rehearsed, talking point-prepared, mature statesman... He should be winning this, and probably would be in an 80s or 90s society... He is the Wagyu Filet...

But no one knows it because he has no sizzle...to get folks attention in 2023, you gotta ruffle some feathers and be ugly doing it...that gets people looking at you, and then you can work in your filet message while they are clamoring for your sizzle...

FireAg said:

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Actually a very fine analogy...

I offered my thoughts on how to change the narrative early on, and several on here mocked me...

In my opinion, the only way to get them away from the meth is to offer them what they think is meth from a different angle...

Again, this is not a society based on principles and grit...this is a society that spends its time worried about who was eliminated on "The Voice" or whether or not Taylor Swift showed up at a football game...

This society, needs the sizzle...if the steak sizzles, and they believe sizzle means Wagyu filet, then they buy the sizzle, even if they are being served USDA Choice rump roast...

Early on I said that to change the narrative...to shift the paradigm...DeSantis needed to grab a headline or two... Find a way to say "something" that, while outlandish, would appeal to those leaning right and force those on the left to talk about...

Folks here argued that he had the skins on the wall from his time as Governor in Florida to play the high road game...that was wrong... He needed to get nasty... For example (and I'm sure there are others), go after Biden...make fun of his dementia...show that he is a sideshow in office... Start hammering the Hunter stuff and lashing out at certain networks who refused to cover it, and start asking why? Hell, he could have won a lot of hearts and minds being outspoken on the multiple political witch hunts Trump has endured and started talking about ways he would ends such nonsense and stop the persecution... Hell, maybe even go after a couple of alphabet agency heads...start calling them out for their blatant shenanigans the same way he went after Disney...

Make some waves...piss some people off...

He hasn't done any of this in a way that grabs headlines and forces people to listen to him... He comes across as a very stoic, well-rehearsed, talking point-prepared, mature statesman... He should be winning this, and probably would be in an 80s or 90s society... He is the Wagyu Filet...

But no one knows it because he has no sizzle...to get folks attention in 2023, you gotta ruffle some feather and be ugly doing it...that gets people looking at you, and then you can work in your filet message while they are clamoring for your sizzle...

---

I think what you are describing is the Vivek approach. That got him about 2 weeks of support, now he's competing with Pence. I am really hoping the consistent messaging and steady buildup is going to be the right way to go, because I think it is the right way to build something lasting.

Vivek isn't backed up by a history of making his political agenda work and be popular in a former swing state that now bleeds a lot of red...

DeSantis has the "skins" (as many have claimed)...I think if he had taken the Ramaswamy approach to kick things off, and then followed it with what he has done in his state, we would have a MUCH tighter race between Trump and DeSantis...

DeSantis led with the steak...should've led with some sizzle and then quickly put the steak on the table...

He approached this campaign in an honorable way, and not in a winning way...

FireAg said:

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Actually a very fine analogy...

I offered my thoughts on how to change the narrative early on, and several on here mocked me...

In my opinion, the only way to get them away from the meth is to offer them what they think is meth from a different angle...

Again, this is not a society based on principles and grit...this is a society that spends its time worried about who was eliminated on "The Voice" or whether or not Taylor Swift showed up at a football game...

This society, needs the sizzle...if the steak sizzles, and they believe sizzle means Wagyu filet, then they buy the sizzle, even if they are being served USDA Choice rump roast...

Early on I said that to change the narrative...to shift the paradigm...DeSantis needed to grab a headline or two... Find a way to say "something" that, while outlandish, would appeal to those leaning right and force those on the left to talk about...

Folks here argued that he had the skins on the wall from his time as Governor in Florida to play the high road game...that was wrong... He needed to get nasty... For example (and I'm sure there are others), go after Biden...make fun of his dementia...show that he is a sideshow in office... Start hammering the Hunter stuff and lashing out at certain networks who refused to cover it, and start asking why? Hell, he could have won a lot of hearts and minds being outspoken on the multiple political witch hunts Trump has endured and started talking about ways he would ends such nonsense and stop the persecution... Hell, maybe even go after a couple of alphabet agency heads...start calling them out for their blatant shenanigans the same way he went after Disney...

Make some waves...piss some people off...

He hasn't done any of this in a way that grabs headlines and forces people to listen to him... He comes across as a very stoic, well-rehearsed, talking point-prepared, mature statesman... He should be winning this, and probably would be in an 80s or 90s society... He is the Wagyu Filet...

But no one knows it because he has no sizzle...to get folks attention in 2023, you gotta ruffle some feathers and be ugly doing it...that gets people looking at you, and then you can work in your filet message while they are clamoring for your sizzle...

---

I think the issue is it isn't really possible to do what you are saying. The best evidence was the hurricane. DeSantis was out front at a major news story and could not have performed better. Yet really got no bump from it. He's done a few other things (firing the Orlando prosecutor for instance) but he doesn't control the news and if the MSM and others don't want to talk about him or what he is doing he can't control that, at least not at this stage. As we get closer to the Primaries that will likely shift and there are signs of that already. People are seeing that this is getting a bit more real. Still for most that won't happen until December to start, it's only political junkies that worry about an election more than a year away and the small group of us that post here regularly only represent a small portion of what else is going on out there.

In short it's not like DeSantis wouldn't love some headlines and hasn't tried to get them but he has very limited control of that. I haven't even discussed algorithms and other means in which they can control information online.

I categorically disagree...it absolutely IS possible, but it would have required him to get his hands dirty...

Call Biden a demented-old empty suit...

Proclaim to the masses that he will end the unlawful political persecution of a former president...

Call Hunter Biden a traitor and mobster...

Put the alphabet agencies on notice that they will be investigated by congress, with the full support of the White House, and should wrong-doing be found (and you don't have to look hard), heads WILL roll...

Then, circle back to the skins on the wall as proof that he can accomplish exactly what he says...

FireAg said:

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I categorically disagree...it absolutely IS possible, but it would have required him to get his hands dirty...

Call Biden a demented-old empty suit...

Proclaim to the masses that he will end the unlawful political persecution of a former president...

Call Hunter Biden a traitor and mobster...

Put the alphabet agencies on notice that they will be investigated by congress, with the full support of the White House, and should wrong-doing be found (and you don't have to look hard), heads WILL roll...

Then, circle back to the skins on the wall as proof that he can accomplish exactly what he says...

---

What he is saying (and I agree) is that it would have been ignored anyway. The media is not interested in anyone but trump. Same with the electorate. There is a trump obsession many can't get past

FireAg said:

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I categorically disagree...it absolutely IS possible, but it would have required him to get his hands dirty...

Call Biden a demented-old empty suit...

Proclaim to the masses that he will end the unlawful political persecution of a former president...

Call Hunter Biden a traitor and mobster...

Put the alphabet agencies on notice that they will be investigated by congress, with the full support of the White House, and should wrong-doing be found (and you don't have to look hard), heads WILL roll...

Then, circle back to the skins on the wall as proof that he can accomplish exactly what he says...

---

He could have done any of that and maybe gotten one news cycle out of it. He would also come across as fake and trying to imitate Trump. BTW, he has insulted Biden. He has talked a LOT about unlawful prosecutions and essentially said he will pardon Trump. He has certainly talked about Hunter. Most of all he has talked about specifics on how he is going to fire everyone and have people to replace them in the Swamp.

You just didn't notice because it isn't being pushed by the media or by algorithms. Saying it louder or with a more creative insult was not going to do the trick either.

I agree DeSantis has to find ways to get headlines but it's a tough haul and he has very limited power over that. The worst case for him is he goes too far trying to get a tag line and looks fake, that detracts from his asset of being authentic.

Like I said, he is having to thread a needle on a boat in a storm, it's not easy.

Talking about these things and "essentially saying" them isn't enough...

Starting off stump speeches by pointing to the cameras in the back, looking straight into the lens, and telling them "I am coming after you and your bull****"...(cheers and applause)...

"And these are examples of how I have already done exactly that in a swing state, bringing both sides together, and making them see it my way"...

But you gotta grab Americans by the balls from the jump...

Remember, when Trump first entered the race leading up to 2016...folks thought he was a joke and a sideshow, and no one would take him seriously...

But then, folks started talking his outlandish, in your face, insult everyone who disagrees with you approach...wait for it...seriously...

I contend that DeSantis should have kicked things off by taking a page out of the Trump playbook, use rhetoric that pushed the envelope, and then put a hole in the Trump echo chamber...

I absolutely believe it would have been covered...

Trump kicked off his first campaign descending down a golden escalator...people REMEMBER that image, and it absolutely plays into the hand of our society which, for better or worse, needs the sizzle...

DeSantis kicked off his fist campaign on Twitter, and had technical difficulties...barely anyone remembers anything about his kickoff except that it stumbled out of the gate...

That image has been symbolic of his run in this primary cycle...dude has great ideas and a pedigree of success for achieving his agenda...but his approach "fails to launch"...there's plenty of meat behind what he says, but our society needs the sizzle...

It is what it is...

Snowflakes flagged my other post for trolling and got it locked. DeSantis needs to do more of this. Every day, call Trump a coward and challenge him to a 1 on 1 debate.

Trump won't debate because he is a gaffe machine lately. He's 77, only 3 years younger than Biden. I think his mind is slipping.

Trump won't debate because his lawyers won't let him. Let's be honest. He is also a gaffe machine at this point. Beating Obama in 2016, WWII comment, Jeb Bush starting Iraq war, on and on.pic.twitter.com/xsYK4wtz2w

— Golden Phoenix (@Golden_Phoenix) September 28, 2023

GeorgiAg said:

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DeSantis needs to do more of this. Every day, call Trump a coward and challenge him to a 1 on 1 debate.

---

Won't work...you don't win over Trump supporters by ****ting on the man they support...then you look like the establishment that is just out there trying to get Trump...


You wanna make waves? Challenge Biden...right now...1 on 1...call him a demented empty suit who can't put two coherent sentences together...who doesn't know whether to scratch his watch or wind his ass...who salutes and shakes hands with empty space...

Steel Trump's thunder by BYPASSING Trump, and show Trump supporters that you are willing to go to the mat and scream at the top of your lungs that the emperor has no clothes...

THAT would grab a headline or two...

aggie93 said:

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Early returns sound strong for DeSantis. Got a few nice moments in and didn't get into the bickering. The close was solid as he told the Moderators what everyone was thinking all night. Ended up better than I expected based on how the first half went filled with chaos and Pence and Burghum seeming to get most of the time as if they were working in reverse order of importance.

---

Early returns?

FireAg said:

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Talking about these things and "essentially saying" them isn't enough...

Starting off stump speeches by pointing to the cameras in the back, looking straight into the lens, and telling them "I am coming after you and your bull****"...(cheers and applause)...

"And these are examples of how I have already done exactly that in a swing state, bringing both sides together, and making them see it my way"...

But you gotta grab Americans by the balls from the jump...

Remember, when Trump first entered the race leading up to 2016...folks thought he was a joke and a sideshow, and no one would take him seriously...

But then, folks started talking his outlandish, in your face, insult everyone who disagrees with you approach...wait for it...seriously...

I contend that DeSantis should have kicked things off by taking a page out of the Trump playbook, use rhetoric that pushed the envelope, and then put a hole in the Trump echo chamber...

I absolutely believe it would have been covered...

Trump kicked off his first campaign descending down a golden escalator...people REMEMBER that image, and it absolutely plays into the hand of our society which, for better or worse, needs the sizzle...

DeSantis kicked off his fist campaign on Twitter, and had technical difficulties...barely anyone remembers anything about his kickoff except that it stumbled out of the gate...

That image has been symbolic of his run in this primary cycle...dude has great ideas and a pedigree of success for achieving his agenda...but his approach "fails to launch"...there's plenty of meat behind what he says, but our society needs the sizzle...

It is what it is...

---

Obviously no way to prove it either way. That said I don't think DeSantis could pull off trying to be Trump and I think that would have turned off a lot of people as well. Getting in a mud wrestling match with Trump just seems like a bad idea.

Agree the campaign launch didn't go well but a lot of that was there were legions of talking heads waiting to pounce and all they did was talk about it and not anything he actually said. DeSantis has had massive headwinds to navigate.

DeSantis is who he is and that's a strength and a weakness. He's got a tough haul and will need some breaks, I just don't think trying to be Trump would have worked for him. I do think there are a lot of small tactics he needs to improve on and he has made some mistakes campaign wise but nothing fatal. He's still seen as the main alternative to Trump so the question will be if at some point the GOP electorate turns on Trump then DeSantis is in the best position to take advantage.

We will see.

aggie93 said:

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Early returns sound strong for DeSantis. Got a few nice moments in and didn't get into the bickering. The close was solid as he told the Moderators what everyone was thinking all night. Ended up better than I expected based on how the first half went filled with chaos and Pence and Burghum seeming to get most of the time as if they were working in reverse order of importance.

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EVERY post I follow on Twitter X was praising DeSantis

even Michael Knowles who is not a DeSantis supporter.

hundreds of posts were discussing and sharing his answers.

he did very well.

FireAg said:

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Actually a very fine analogy...

I offered my thoughts on how to change the narrative early on, and several on here mocked me...

In my opinion, the only way to get them away from the meth is to offer them what they think is meth from a different angle...

Again, this is not a society based on principles and grit...this is a society that spends its time worried about who was eliminated on "The Voice" or whether or not Taylor Swift showed up at a football game...

This society, needs the sizzle...if the steak sizzles, and they believe sizzle means Wagyu filet, then they buy the sizzle, even if they are being served USDA Choice rump roast...

Early on I said that to change the narrative...to shift the paradigm...DeSantis needed to grab a headline or two... Find a way to say "something" that, while outlandish, would appeal to those leaning right and force those on the left to talk about...

Folks here argued that he had the skins on the wall from his time as Governor in Florida to play the high road game...that was wrong... He needed to get nasty... For example (and I'm sure there are others), go after Biden...make fun of his dementia...show that he is a sideshow in office... Start hammering the Hunter stuff and lashing out at certain networks who refused to cover it, and start asking why? Hell, he could have won a lot of hearts and minds being outspoken on the multiple political witch hunts Trump has endured and started talking about ways he would ends such nonsense and stop the persecution... Hell, maybe even go after a couple of alphabet agency heads...start calling them out for their blatant shenanigans the same way he went after Disney...

Make some waves...piss some people off...

He hasn't done any of this in a way that grabs headlines and forces people to listen to him... He comes across as a very stoic, well-rehearsed, talking point-prepared, mature statesman... He should be winning this, and probably would be in an 80s or 90s society... He is the Wagyu Filet...

But no one knows it because he has no sizzle...to get folks attention in 2023, you gotta ruffle some feathers and be ugly doing it...that gets people looking at you, and then you can work in your filet message while they are clamoring for your sizzle...

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I gave you a hard time because you were repeating the same point too much IMO. I mostly agree with your content. In the end, we mostly want the same thing. I just don't see the Trump demigod thing changing.

BD88 said:

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aggie93 said:

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Early returns sound strong for DeSantis. Got a few nice moments in and didn't get into the bickering. The close was solid as he told the Moderators what everyone was thinking all night. Ended up better than I expected based on how the first half went filled with chaos and Pence and Burghum seeming to get most of the time as if they were working in reverse order of importance.

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Early returns?

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Online polls don't mean jack. 100% chance that a lot of Trumpers who didn't even watch the debate are voting for Vivek in that poll because "Florida Governor Bad." Dems and neocons are voting for Haley.