OFFICIAL ****Donald Trump versus Ron DeSantis*** thread...

425,612 Views | 9100 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by astros4545
FL_Ag1998
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FireAg said:

I don't believe there is a grand conspiracy for the Left to push Trump to win the nomination so they can cheat him out of the general a second time…

I could absolutely be wrong, but I personally believe that's a bridge too far…

I think the Left and the establishment want him out of the race…

I think the media loves Trump headlines because it gets clicks…but the Establishment doesn't want to deal with a second Trump headache for 4 more years…


See, just my opinion but plenty of others share it...Trump has very minimal chance of winning the General with or without cheating. As a poll guy I know you've seen the National polls of Trump head to head against Biden. Or even just the polls on Trump alone - his favorability, etc. Nationally Trump has turned off so many voters that cheating won't even be necessary to beat him. Especially if (as I predict) the Dems pull Biden and insert a younger candidate.

A younger Dem who can claim separation from Biden's economic policies vs an almost 80 year old Trump who over half the country hates? Damn near close to a surefire win for the Dems. Only diehard Trump supporters would argue otherwise.

So sure, Trump behind bars would cause a massive Dem orgasm. But they'll accept a battered, scarred, tainted, financially broke Trump at the top of the Rep ticket as their reward goal. Running against that in the General is a piece of cake.
TRM
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Getting Trump at the top of the just hangs a big anchor on all the down ballot Republicans.
FL_Ag1998
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TRM said:

Getting Trump at the top of the just hangs a big anchor on all the down ballot Republicans.


Yep, I forgot about that.
IMnAg79
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And DeSantis big money donors want to control his message. Would never happen with Trump
FireAg
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FL_Ag1998 said:

FireAg said:

I don't believe there is a grand conspiracy for the Left to push Trump to win the nomination so they can cheat him out of the general a second time…

I could absolutely be wrong, but I personally believe that's a bridge too far…

I think the Left and the establishment want him out of the race…

I think the media loves Trump headlines because it gets clicks…but the Establishment doesn't want to deal with a second Trump headache for 4 more years…


See, just my opinion but plenty of others share it...Trump has very minimal chance of winning the General with or without cheating. As a poll guy I know you've seen the National polls of Trump head to head against Biden. Or even just the polls on Trump alone - his favorability, etc. Nationally Trump has turned off so many voters that cheating won't even be necessary to beat him. Especially if (as I predict) the Dems pull Biden and insert a younger candidate.

A younger Dem who can claim separation from Biden's economic policies vs an almost 80 year old Trump who over half the country hates? Damn near close to a surefire win for the Dems. Only diehard Trump supporters would argue otherwise.

So sure, Trump behind bars would cause a massive Dem orgasm. But they'll accept a battered, scarred, tainted, financially broke Trump at the top of the Rep ticket as their reward goal. Running against that in the General is a piece of cake.
Yes, I have seen them nationally...and Trump has gained ground vs Biden, and DeSantis is now polling further back than Trump:



Further, DeSantis continues to lose ground vs Trump head-to-head nationally:



I fully appreciate that staunch conservatives want the narrative to be "DeSantis can beat Trump" and "DeSantis has a better shot against Biden than Trump", but the numbers simply don't support such an assertion at this time...so those ideas, while popular on this board, are speculative and not substantive...

And while we can also speculate that "Trump can't beat a younger, non-Biden, no matter what", until one enters the race and we see data, it too is merely speculative..."wish-casting", if you will... It might be true, but we don't really know for sure...

Right now, nationally, Trump is close to being in a dead heat with Biden, which means he has gained on Biden, and is now doing better vs Biden than DeSantis...

For better or worse, that's what the numbers say at this point in the election cycle, and DeSantis needs to play some serious catch up between now and January...approximately 5 months...
TRADUCTOR
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TRM said:

Getting Trump at the top of the just hangs a big anchor on all the down ballot Republicans.

No it doesn't, this isn't peer reviewed.
FireAg
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Here is today's 538 conglomerate average:



The gap between DeSantis and Trump continues to widen...

In fact, only one person in the GOP field that is actually gaining on Trump (albeit marginally, but he is the only one with his arrow pointing up vs Trump at this time), is Ramaswamy...
JamesE4
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LMCane said:

Charpie said:

LMCane said:

Trump's own cronies admitted under oath they knew they lost the election, and that Trump knew he lost the election. But they had concocted a strategy EVEN BEFORE the election to claim it was stolen so they could raise money for Trump's legal fees and to sow chaos:




I've mentioned this before. It still won't be enough for the trump supporters to believe that the election wasn't stolen
Yep. The fact is that the true Trump hardcore dead enders will never accept any evidence against him. Just as Trump himself stated back in 2015 "I could shoot someone in New York City" and his defenders would still not believe it.

what type of a person is that called again?

No matter how many REPUBLICANS have testified UNDER OATH that the election was not stolen,

that Trump really did lose in all those states, no matter how many GOP appointed Judges ruled in every single case there was no evidence of fraud to justify overturning the state elections-

the Trump dead enders can't psychologically acknowledge reality. It would shatter their self image.

in reading the indictment, I bet Pence is going to be even more upset that Trump was setting him up to be the fall guy!
Just catching up and watched some of that video. Anyone who thinks that Trumps advisors telling him, after the election, that it was successfully stolen and he would not win the legal challenges, means that the election was NOT stolen is a troll or an idiot lacking in sense.
FireAg
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Now, if I take the average polling data nationally, and I couple it with the DeSantis campaign layoffs, and then factor in the very public "I'm a mega donor to DeSantis who doesn't like where things are headed" statement from Bigelow, and I'm sorry, but all of the arrows appear to be pointing down for DeSantis (both versus Trump and versus Biden), at this time...

That's what the current evidence says...no feelings, no assumptions, no you-name-the-color shaded glasses...

DeSantis is simply not doing well, at this time...
aggie93
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IMnAg79 said:

And DeSantis big money donors want to control his message. Would never happen with Trump
Trump would gladly moderate his position on abortion for $20 million, if you don't understand that you are truly naive. There are a few issues that Trump won't compromise on but social issues he DGAF about and never has. I mean hell he was willing to give up gun rights and even on Amnesty just to try to get a win on Legislation much less a badly needed donation. DeSantis is literally walking away from that guys money because he won't compromise.

It amazes me how people simply enact their image of what they want Trump to be vs what he is. What he is has a lot of merit but this purified warrior who has deep principles and is standing up for the little guy thing would be funny if it wasn't sad. Dude literally has let Jan 6 people rot in prison when he could have pardoned them and he hasn't given them a dime to defend themselves, same with the electors in Michigan.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
FireAg
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aggie93 said:

DeSantis is literally walking away from that guys money because he won't compromise.

I agree with you…that is how I read the current situation as well…good for him…

As long as you understand that such stances may cost him the R nomination (and he's not gaining ground on Trump so there's something…or several somethings…holding him back), and if he can't win the R nomination, then any conversation about what he could do in the general election, and whether or not his platform would hit home with independents, is moot…
aggie93
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FireAg said:

Now, if I take the average polling data nationally, and I couple it with the DeSantis campaign layoffs, and then factor in the very public "I'm a mega donor to DeSantis who doesn't like where things are headed" statement from Bigelow, and I'm sorry, but all of the arrows appear to be pointing down for DeSantis (both versus Trump and versus Biden), at this time...

That's what the current evidence says...no feelings, no assumptions, no you-name-the-color shaded glasses...

DeSantis is simply not doing well, at this time...
I'm shocked the polls haven't changed since the last time you posted them and continue to post them saying the same thing every day. DeSantis still has a MASSIVE money advantage on Trump and his fundraising is strong. The 538 polling also includes some really terrible polls and once again it is National which is the least relevant.

I don't deny DeSantis has ground to make up but none of what is happening is surprising. Trump's legal issues are sucking up all the oxygen and have created a huge boost for him. Look on this board and it is filled with pissed off people raging about how Trump is being mistreated and how bad Biden is. Anything related to actual discussion about the candidates and positions is glossed over. Until that changes as we get closer to the primaries that is unlikely to change either. Maybe it won't and Republicans decide they would rather lose huge in November when the Dems replace out Biden and take out Trump's entire reason for his campaign. Maybe not.

Either way we are months from any of the polling meaning much at all but you can still post the same polling data 5 times a day and talk about how hopeless it is for DeSantis. Of course you also think it is irrelevant that there are many examples of people leading in national primary polls at this point and losing, even big leads like Hillary had over Obama (she was running up about 30 with Obama steadily after his announcement to run in 2015 and had a huge money advantage over Obama).

The money thing is comical though because the only thing that matters there is if Trump starts to get major fundraising. DeSantis is fine there but Trump is in deep, deep trouble. I wonder how many of the folks raging here are writing a check to pay Trump's legal bills? If he doesn't get a lot of that money he's got a real problem.

The Biden/Trump polls are also a joke because virtually all of them are in the 40s for each candidate and every poll shows that Independents hate Trump and hate him more as he gets more charges against him. Common sense tells you the same. Trump gets convicted, no matter how unjust it might be, and he loses huge and drags the GOP down with him.

BTW, I'd love to be wrong about Trump losing huge to the Democrats but every fiber of my being tells me otherwise. The fact that the Dems successfully pumped up Trump backed candidates in the primaries of '22 so they could slaughter them in the General and are clearly going by the same playbook is also almost too obvious. Trump must keep up the appearance of inevitability and every Democrat and MSM outlet is going to try to help him with that because they know he will lose.

The polls about Biden/DeSantis are also pretty garbage right now because people simply don't know DeSantis and inevitably the same thing that will kill Trump favors DeSantis. That thing being where Swing voters go. If it is DeSantis vs Biden and Biden is polling in the low 40s he is going to lose huge because votes almost always go away from the incumbent among undecideds. Trump/Biden has a dual iincumbent scenario because they are both known commodities.

Keep posting the same polls and saying the end is nigh though, you could certainly be right but if you are it will be because things didn't shift months from now not because of where they stand currently.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
FireAg
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Bud…you want your candidate to start seeing a "trend in the right direction "…that's not what we are seeing for DeSantis…

And you can discount the 538 polling averages…but I warn you…the RCP averages are in line with the 538's…

5 months from Iowa, and DeSantis's arrow is not pointing up…every day that goes by where he continues to lose ground is a trend in the wrong direction…

At this point, I really don't think he can beat Trump head-to-head…he needs Trump out of the race by hook or by crook to have a shot…

In my opinion, that's his best chance at victory…Trump needs to be removed from the equation…
GeorgiAg
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aggie93
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FireAg said:

Bud…you want your candidate to start seeing a "trend in the right direction "…that's not what we are seeing for DeSantis…

And you can discount the 538 polling averages…but I warn you…the RCP averages are in line with the 538's…

5 months from Iowa, and DeSantis's arrow is not pointing up…every day that goes by where he continues to lose ground is a trend in the wrong direction…

At this point, I really don't think he can beat Trump head-to-head…he needs Trump out of the race by hook or by crook to have a shot…

In my opinion, that's his best chance at victory…Trump needs to be removed from the equation…


I get it, you think the polls right now are the ballgame. No matter what arguments are made it is all you talk about. Ok
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
J. Walter Weatherman
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FireAg said:

Bud…you want your candidate to start seeing a "trend in the right direction "…that's not what we are seeing for DeSantis…

And you can discount the 538 polling averages…but I warn you…the RCP averages are in line with the 538's…

5 months from Iowa, and DeSantis's arrow is not pointing up…every day that goes by where he continues to lose ground is a trend in the wrong direction…

At this point, I really don't think he can beat Trump head-to-head…he needs Trump out of the race by hook or by crook to have a shot…

In my opinion, that's his best chance at victory…Trump needs to be removed from the equation…


Or, we understand that, for the 5,000th time, polls 5 months before the first primary and before any debates don't mean anything. We also know that Trump will lose to Biden not because of polls, but because he already lost to Biden and has changed absolutely nothing in terms of how he's operating. But continue with your concern trolling.
FireAg
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It's the only substantive data point available…everything else is conjecture and speculation…

And again, it's not that he just trails in the polling…it's that he is very far behind, getting crushed, if you will, with 5 months to Iowa…

The stuff you're latching onto is very much pro-DeSantis, and it is keeping folks like yourself from seeing the big picture here…

DeSantis needs something big to grab momentum…to reverse the inertia, or he's just not going to be the nominee in 2024…

Either that, or Trump needs to disappear so that DeSantis can then fill that vacuum because, frankly, I DO believe he is currently in the best position to do so…

But as long as Trump remains viable, there is no vacuum to fill…
FireAg
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Ah, but they DO mean something if you are objective about it…

At this point in 2015, Trump led in the polls…not by much, but he had the lead…and went on to win…

At this same point in 2023, DeSantis not only doesn't have the lead, he's not only getting getting blown out of the water, he's also not the one candidate who has actually gained ground on Trump (although marginally)…

That's fact…

So it's certainly your prerogative to ignore the obvious, objective data available, but it doesn't change the reality that much of the rest of the country, for better worse, already sees…
J. Walter Weatherman
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FireAg said:

Ah, but they DO mean something if you are objective about it…

At this point in 2015, Trump led in the polls…not by much, but he had the lead…and went on to win…

At this same point in 2023, DeSantis not only doesn't have the lead, he's not only getting getting blown out of the water, he's also not the one candidate who has actually gained ground on Trump (although marginally)…

That's fact…

So it's certainly your prerogative to ignore the obvious, objective data available, but it doesn't change the reality that much of the rest of the country, for better worse, already sees…


No, they don't. And you are clearly not objective about it, no matter how many times you pretend you're some neutral arbiter. I'm sure your next 50 "so concerned" posts about polls half a year from the first primary and before any debates will be very informative though.
astros4545
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FireAg said:

It's the only substantive data point available…everything else is conjecture and speculation…

And again, it's not that he just trails in the polling…it's that he is very far behind, getting crushed, if you will, with 5 months to Iowa…

The stuff you're latching onto is very much pro-DeSantis, and it is keeping folks like yourself from seeing the big picture here…

DeSantis needs something big to grab momentum…to reverse the inertia, or he's just not going to be the nominee in 2024…

Either that, or Trump needs to disappear so that DeSantis can then fill that vacuum because, frankly, I DO believe he is currently in the best position to do so…

But as long as Trump remains viable, there is no vacuum to fill…


Trump is sub 50% in his own party as a former president

He is getting crushed

Can play the polls any way you want
FireAg
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Trump had the lead before the debates in 2015…it was small, but he had the lead prior to the Aug 6, 2015 first R-primary debate…

DeSantis will not…

And if Trump no-shows the first debate this time around, whether you like it or not, the headlines won't read "DeSantis blows away the field for the R nomination in first debate"…the headlines will read "Trump doesn't show for first debate" followed with some grandiose quotes from the orange man…

That's reality…

And DeSantis et al won't get much more than a marginal bump against Trump's lead, and it will likely be short-lived…
FireAg
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astros4545 said:

FireAg said:

It's the only substantive data point available…everything else is conjecture and speculation…

And again, it's not that he just trails in the polling…it's that he is very far behind, getting crushed, if you will, with 5 months to Iowa…

The stuff you're latching onto is very much pro-DeSantis, and it is keeping folks like yourself from seeing the big picture here…

DeSantis needs something big to grab momentum…to reverse the inertia, or he's just not going to be the nominee in 2024…

Either that, or Trump needs to disappear so that DeSantis can then fill that vacuum because, frankly, I DO believe he is currently in the best position to do so…

But as long as Trump remains viable, there is no vacuum to fill…


Trump is sub 50% in his own party as a former president

He is getting crushed

Can play the polls any way you want

But that is patently false…

He's polling above 53% nationally in both the 538 and RCP Republican Primary poll averages…

Not sure where you are getting he's polling at sub-50 in R polls…he's not…
J. Walter Weatherman
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FireAg said:

Trump had the lead before the debates in 2015…it was small, but he had the lead prior to the Aug 6, 2015 first R-primary debate…

DeSantis will not…

And if Trump no-shows the first debate this time around, whether you like it or not, the headlines won't read "DeSantis blows away the field for the R nomination in first debate"…the headlines will read "Trump doesn't show for first debate" followed with some grandiose quotes from the orange man…

That's reality…

And DeSantis et al won't get much more than a marginal bump against Trump's lead, and it will likely be short-lived…


The headlines will be whatever gets the media the most clicks/views and won't change anyone's mind. The reality will be that Trump's fear of looking like an unserious moron on tv compared to the other candidates will do nothing to grow his current base of diehards who are never changing their minds from Dear Leader as it is. They are purely an opportunity for DeSantis to separate himself from the rest of the candidates and start the clock on them dropping out. The only way Trump wins is if the rest of the candidates stay in too long, just like in 2016. I'm hopeful the party isn't dumb enough to let that happen but who knows.

Finally, as it's a caucus Iowa will be more dependent on ground game than anything else and Trump is failing miserably there in comparison to what DeSantis has put together.

Again, feel free to keep pretending but no one believes you're actually concerned here.
aggie93
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FireAg said:

Ah, but they DO mean something if you are objective about it…

At this point in 2015, Trump led in the polls…not by much, but he had the lead…and went on to win…

At this same point in 2023, DeSantis not only doesn't have the lead, he's not only getting getting blown out of the water, he's also not the one candidate who has actually gained ground on Trump (although marginally)…

That's fact…

So it's certainly your prerogative to ignore the obvious, objective data available, but it doesn't change the reality that much of the rest of the country, for better worse, already sees…

2015 is a very different election example because Trump was new. President Hillary led Obama by 30 and the numbers didn't shift until November and really December. Btw Trump is barely above 40 in Iowa and Sc and in the mid 30s now in NH and losing ground in all 3 in the only semi reliable polling.

If you want to obsess about 2015 polls though Cruz was in low single digits at this point and won Iowa.

I know though. The only reliable data is the average of national polls in your mind and any argument is futile or now "pro DeSantis". Money and ground game are also irrelevant.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
FireAg
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Iowa absolutely is a caucus state, and I absolutely agree that ground game will be an important factor...

But he currently trails by 27 points in Iowa:



But he has 5 months to get to even...that's 5.4 points per month...

Is it impossible? Nope... Is it improbable? Yes...

DeSantis either needs to make a major move soon, or Trump needs to disappear and then DeSantis can fill the vacuum...

And if you follow the trend data in Iowa, it is showing the same trend as what is being seen nationally...

There is ONE who is ever so slightly closing the gap against Trump...but it isn't DeSantis...it's Ramaswamy...

ETA: Tim Scott is definitely closing the Trump gap in Iowa as well, but the national trends do not match Scott's performance in Iowa...
J. Walter Weatherman
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FireAg said:

Iowa absolutely is a caucus state, and I absolutely agree that ground game will be an important factor...

But he currently trails by 27 points in Iowa:



But he has 5 months to get to even...that's 5.4 points per month...

Is it impossible? Nope... Is it improbable? Yes...

DeSantis either needs to make a major move soon, or Trump needs to disappear and then DeSantis can fill the vacuum...

And if you follow the trend data in Iowa, it is showing the same trend as what is being seen nationally...

There is ONE candidate who is ever so slightly closing the gap against Trump...but it isn't DeSantis...it's Ramaswamy...


Well crap, someone should tell DeSantis that Iowa is now decided by a bunch of random polls and not by caucus.
astros4545
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Desantis should drop out, that way trump and the 3rd~10th place contenders can have a fair fight

/cult45
Rapier108
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astros4545 said:

Desantis should drop out, that way trump and the 3rd~10th place contenders can have a fair fight

/cult45
Trump wants them all to drop out, and give him all their money so he can pay his legal bills and keep up the grift for another ~15 months.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
FireAg
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astros4545 said:

Desantis should drop out, that way trump and the 3rd~10th place contenders can have a fair fight

/cult45

Name calling works in the absence of facts…

Got it…

And I do not think DeSantis should drop out…but I do think he needs to make major changes to his approach…

And I think this is supported anecdotally by the fact that he laid off over 1/3 of his campaign staff along with the fact that a major donor of his called him out saying massive changes are needed…
Im Gipper
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Quote:

Name calling works in the absence of facts…


Official motto of Trump 2024 campaign.

I'm Gipper
FireAg
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Im Gipper said:

Quote:

Name calling works in the absence of facts…


Official motto of Trump 2024 campaign.

And that, Mr. Reagan, is a real example of thread-trolling…
Im Gipper
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Pointing out the obvious double standard is not trolling. You set yourself up to get crushed on that one!

I'm Gipper
FireAg
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Im Gipper said:

Pointing out the obvious double standard is not trolling. You set yourself up to get crushed on that one!

Trump's schtick, however grotesque, has worked for him in the past…

You're trolling isn't providing a counter argument to the point I am making…

It's snarky and cutesy, but it doesn't change the facts as they relate to the current state of the race between Trump and DeSantis, which is what this thread is supposedly about…
No Spin Ag
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Rapier108 said:

astros4545 said:

Desantis should drop out, that way trump and the 3rd~10th place contenders can have a fair fight

/cult45
Trump wants them all to drop out, and give him all their money so he can pay his legal bills and keep up the grift for another ~15 months.


But Trump knows that even he loses the next election, he'll still be able to count on all of his maga to keep giving him money for his next run. I mean, the way things keep piling on him in the courts, he's going to want their money for the upcoming indictments that'll probably last after the election.
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the later ignorance. Hippocrates
FireAg
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You know…perhaps that is his intended play…

But it's working, and it's preventing DeSantis from gaining any traction…
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