Old May Banker said:

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Keep voting for 80 year old billionaires and convincing yourself that it's 'anti-establishment'

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My boss is a Jewish carpenter. And my president is the son of a cable guy.

#Desantis24

Zarathustra said:

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FireAg said:

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Zarathustra said:

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No one takes him seriously.

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Whether you like it or not, 10s of millions of people take him seriously...or at the very least, they favor him...

That's the reality...so I fail to see how trying to alienate and marginalize 10s of millions of voters is going to get your preferred choice elected...

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I don't know what to tell you. Hes acted like a clown since the election. He went from scorched earth against DeSantis which makes zero sense. If anyone is alienating voters it's trump..

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This, I am not even close to the only guy who could not wait to vote for him in 2020 that he has completely lost. Is is acting like a complete fool, and the outright lies against Desantis, and constantly attacking him from the left, was my final straw. I won't vote for him no matter what...that being said, I live in Texas...maybe I would if I were in a diff state.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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FireAg said:

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Zarathustra said:

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No one takes him seriously.

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Whether you like it or not, 10s of millions of people take him seriously...or at the very least, they favor him...

That's the reality...so I fail to see how trying to alienate and marginalize 10s of millions of voters is going to get your preferred choice elected...

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Here's my question/point for you.

It seems you acknowledge Trump and his campaign/surrogates/etc play down in the mud. And it seems that has no effect on your support for him.

But you insist that Desantis supporters remain above any type of insult in their return fire. You insist that's a turnoff to you.

So, its that clear double standard which Desantis supporters have a problem with. If I'm not understanding your viewpoint please correct me.

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I agree that since the elction, Trump has gone off of the deep end with his attacks on DeSantis and people that are trying to advance the conservative ideology. The election rants are different and have some merit though.

But the main point Trump voters are going for is that they are not trying to live within a corrupt system but are rather trying to shine a spotlight on how corrupt the system is.

Trump or nothing is dumb.
DeSantis or nothing is dumb.

Either Trump or DeSantis in the general is great IF the establishment down ballot is voted out.

Tea Party said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Old May Banker said:

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Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol

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You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.

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So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.

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Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.

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Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the 2020 FL election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election (even to Biden) will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who'll believe election shenanigans at that result will be die hard Trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course Trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Zarathustra said:

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and? So now you're afraid of mean tweets?

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These debates won't work if you can't answer honestly to the questions presented.

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Trump has called every single Republican a childish name. It would be disingenuous for trump supporters to be offended by name calling.
How's that?

We should have spent the last 2 years talking about election transparency and accountability. But instead trump was running around screaming the election was stolen, promising to release the kranken. His 'legal team' was such a joke it killed any serious talks about election reform.

Tea Party said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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FireAg said:

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Zarathustra said:

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No one takes him seriously.

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Whether you like it or not, 10s of millions of people take him seriously...or at the very least, they favor him...

That's the reality...so I fail to see how trying to alienate and marginalize 10s of millions of voters is going to get your preferred choice elected...

---

Here's my question/point for you.

It seems you acknowledge Trump and his campaign/surrogates/etc play down in the mud. And it seems that has no effect on your support for him.

But you insist that Desantis supporters remain above any type of insult in their return fire. You insist that's a turnoff to you.

So, its that clear double standard which Desantis supporters have a problem with. If I'm not understanding your viewpoint please correct me.

---

I agree that since the elction, Trump has gone off of the deep end with his attacks on DeSantis and people that are trying to advance the conservative ideology. The election rants are different and have some merit though.

But the main point Trump voters are going for is that they are not trying to live within a corrupt system but are rather trying to shine a spotlight on how corrupt the system is.

Trump or nothing is dumb.
DeSantis or nothing is dumb.

Either Trump or DeSantis in the general is great IF the establishment down ballot is voted out.

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I agree with you, and to that point I say that a vote for a Desantis will go much further than a vote for Trump.

Why?

Go look at how tight a ship Desantis runs. Go see how he got the whole Florida legislature in line behind him. Regardless of whether those were newcomers or career politicians who have been in office for a while, he whipped them into shape to pass his agenda. Then go look and how he affected local school board races across the entire state of Florida by contributing money and his support to conservative outsiders and newcomers in order to oust Liberal leaning and Union backing incumbent school board members. THAT's exactly what you say you want to see happen at the national level. So give Desantis a chance because we know Trump can't do that, it's a proven factor at this point.

DeSantis needs Trump voters' votes to win…

FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Old May Banker said:

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Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol

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You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.

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So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.

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Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.

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Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.

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These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.

Quote:

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Do you think the FBI circulating a letter saying he was a Russian operative had anything to do with that? Who would you expect to align with him if they had read that letter?

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Those are the questions I presented. What you gave as an answer is not relevant to these questions.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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FireAg said:

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DeSantis needs Trump voters' votes to win…

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Trump needs all of Desantis' voter's votes to win the general plus some of the middle's votes So maybe he (Trump) should stop pissing them off.

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DeSantis voters will vote for Biden before Trump.

Tea Party said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Old May Banker said:

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Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol

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You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.

---

So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.

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Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.

---

Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.

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These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.

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Ok, I understand now that your argument isn't that Desantis himself is the status quo. Your argument is rather simply that voting for a Republican who came up through the Republican system is the status quo. At least I think that's your point.

If that's your point then yes, that's a big reason why I voted for Trump in 2016 along with the fact that there's no way in Hell I'd vote for Hillary. To send a message to both the R's and D's. I just don't think that voting for Trump sends that message anymore.

In 2016 the mainstream media went with that message after Trump's victory. But in 2024 the media will spin a vote for Trump as a vote for white nationalism, etc. They'll likely spin that same narrative for a Desantis victory. But that just means both votes are equal in the statements they make according to the media. Now it becomes a matter of who is more in line with my beliefs and who will accomplish more once they're in office.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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FireAg said:

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DeSantis needs Trump voters' votes to win…

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Trump needs all of Desantis' voter's votes to win the general plus some of the middle's votes So maybe he (Trump) should stop pissing them off.

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DeSantis voters will vote for Biden before Trump.

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Ehhh, I don't believe that's true, I think if Trump and his campaign continues on the road they're on there will be Desantis supporters and a lot of the middle who simply don't vote.

The turnout will be lower than 2020 and Biden or more likely Newsome will beat Trump.

Polls are meaningless right now. Y'all have to remember we are on a POLITICS FORUM talking politics with others who pay close attention to it.

You think most people outside of Florida even know who DeSantis IS at this point? Probably not. They may now he's governor of florida but most people don't even know who THEIR governor is.

You know who HAS heard of DeSantis right now? Iowa voters. The Republican primary is a long slog and frankly what voters in swing states who probably don't even know who DeSantis is means nothing at this point. Trump is probably the most famous person in the entire world.

Give it time and trust the process. DeSantis' ground game is like nothing else done in history. If he gets stomped in Iowa, DeSantis is done, but they are banking on a win or close loss to build up the momentum that matters when Super Tuesday states vote.

By the way why does my talk to text feature always translate Desantis into two santas?

Since I have your attention now, my friend, let me tell you about the sheer magnificence of the Hummer! Brace yourself for a journey into the realm of automotive supremacy. Picture this: you're behind the wheel of a mighty beast, a commanding force that dominates the road. The Hummer is not just a vehicle; it's an embodiment of power, ruggedness, and unstoppable performance.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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FL_Ag1998 said:

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Tea Party said:

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Old May Banker said:

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Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol

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You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.

---

So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.

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Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.

---

Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.

---

These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.

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Ok, I understand now that your argument isn't that Desantis himself is the status quo. Your argument is rather simply that voting for a Republican who came up through the Republican system is the status quo. At least I think that's your point.

If that's your point then yes, that's a big reason why I voted for Trump in 2016 along with the fact that there's no way in Hell I'd vote for Hillary. To send a message to both the R's and D's. I just don't think that voting for Trump sends that message anymore.

In 2016 the mainstream media went with that message after Trump's victory. But in 2024 the media will spin a vote for Trump as a vote for white nationalism, etc. They'll likely spin that same narrative for a Desantis victory. But that just means both votes are equal in the statements they make according to the media. Now it becomes a matter of who is more in line with my beliefs and who will accomplish more once they're in office.

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Mostly yes, and very well summarized. My thoughts to print are a rambled mess. But I don't care if a candidate came up through the Republican system. I care if they advance the conservatives ideology when it matters and most of the GOP does not do that on issues that matter to me like small government, border security, and the role of the military.

I believe the system is too corrupt and bloated to be fixed from within though I'm willing to try hence my push for better down ballot candidates rather than the top of the ticket getting all of the attention. DeSantis likely can do more during his term than Trump IF they both have establishment ilk beneath them, but Trump in my opinion has a greater chance of showing up to office on day 1 with less establishment types beneath him just because of how the primary votes may have gone. But you are right he most likely is less efficient than DeSantis once in office.

And since my beliefs are it can't be fixed I align with who I think breaks the status quo which unfortunately appears to be Trump but may become DeSantis. Ideally return to states right where leftists can be leftists and conservatives can be conservatives, but at worst we peacefully separate because people wake up to the reality that conservatism and leftism are incompatible for a single government.

So your beef is with Trump…

Yet some of you attack anyone who says anything positive about Trump and spew things like "cult" and "brainwashed"…

Seems like a broad brush, and it isn't going to help win over Trump-favoring voters…

As someone else states, many of us defend what Trump stands for with regard to the fight against the establishment…whatever he (or any other candidate) has or will do to stick their finger in the eye of the establishment, we are for…whether it be Trump, DeSantis, or Mickey ****ing Mouse (the irony is intended, btw), I (and many like me) don't really care…

It is the IDEA we support, not the individual man…

Some of you have a very difficult time being able to separate the two…

Tea Party said:

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And since my beliefs are it can't be fixed I align with who I think breaks the status quo which unfortunately appears to be Trump but may become DeSantis. Ideally return to states right where leftists can be leftists and conservatives can be conservatives, but at worst we peacefully separate because people wake up to the reality that conservatism and leftism are incompatible for a single government.

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Absolutely, categorically, and unequivocally agree with this…

FireAg said:

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So your beef is with Trump…

Yet some of you attack anyone who says anything positive about Trump and spew things like "cult" and "brainwashed"…

Seems like a broad brush, and it isn't going to help win over Trump-favoring voters…

As someone else states, many of us defend what Trump stands for with regard to the fight against the establishment…whatever he (or any other candidate) has or will do to stick their finger in the eye of the establishment, we are for…whether it be Trump, DeSantis, or Mickey ****ing Mouse (the irony is intended, btw), I (and many like me) don't really care…

It is the IDEA we support, not the individual man…

Some of you have a very difficult time being able to separate the two…

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Remember this scene?



Was all summed up there. And nothing has changed.

And unfortunately, I fall into the category of those who feel like the only way to save the village is to destroy it and start over…

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Quote:

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Cult45 doesn't care about winning the general. They just want win the nomination and destroy DeSantis. They know the general election is lost with Trump, but they don't even care about it at this point. They just want any kind of "victory".

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The best part is you've convinced yourself that this is truth.

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Almost daily there is a Trump supporter on here who thinks that no Republican can win so it really doesn't matter anyway. It's like the loyalty to Trump is so strong they would hate to feel like he was proven wrong that someone else could win and he couldn't. I don't think it is even overt and many of them realize it but that is the logic. The fact Trump still acts like a complete unhinged fool on a regular basis doesn't matter, it's any Republican would do just as poorly to them.

Tea Party said:

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Charpie said:

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I think the hardest pill to swallow with trump is that he simply cannot win the general. He may have a very loyal, rabid primary following, but that's really it. The rest of us are seeing the long game. trump supporters aren't, and if you aren't thinking past the primary, you're not going to win.

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I think it's the exact opposite. The people advocating for Trump, or more accurately are advocating against the big gov establishment, are the ones looking at the long game.

The people that think we can continue voting for the GOP types that have enabled the country to spiral out of control are the ones that are only looking a single election cycle at a time.

Neither side is wrong and both sides have merits, but to claim that Trump voters are not looking at the long game is naive at best or a disagreement on what timeframe the "long game" is in play.

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Trump literally just had an event with LINDSAY GRAHAM where he claimed Lindsay was VERY CONSERVATIVE. Just absorb that for a minute.

I'm pretty sure you just made a completely baseless assumption in your head, shoved your hand all they up your poop chute, and pulled that out of your ass…

Talk about convincing yourself that something is fact when it isn't…

FireAg said:

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And unfortunately, I fall into the category of those who feel like the only way to save the village is to destroy it and start over…

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Not quite there yet. But getting close.

To me, the problem is that more Dems won't get it than Republicans.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Quote:

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Trump was utterly ineffective against the establishment. That has been pointed out ad nauseum.

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Do you think the FBI circulating a letter saying he was a Russian operative had anything to do with that? Who would you expect to align with him if they had read that letter?

Trump was sabotaged by our own government.

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Who appointed the AG, FBI Director, etc that sabotaged him again? It sucks what happened to him but Trump is still hanging around with any Swamp creature who will have him. Say something nice about him and he still loves you. How can people not see this? It's not like he is hiding the ball here.

aggie93 said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Quote:

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Cult45 doesn't care about winning the general. They just want win the nomination and destroy DeSantis. They know the general election is lost with Trump, but they don't even care about it at this point. They just want any kind of "victory".

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The best part is you've convinced yourself that this is truth.

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Almost daily there is a Trump supporter on here who thinks that no Republican can win so it really doesn't matter anyway. It's like the loyalty to Trump is so strong they would hate to feel like he was proven wrong that someone else could win and he couldn't. I don't think it is even overt and many of them realize it but that is the logic. The fact Trump still acts like a complete unhinged fool on a regular basis doesn't matter, it's any Republican would do just as poorly to them.

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Which goes along with what I've been saying.

They know Trump will lose (cheating will always be their excuse), so they want one final "victory" by winning the primary and destroying DeSantis.

Our world is being taken over by people who think sexual deviancy and debauchery should be acceptable…

People literally want to legalize a parent's desire to mutilate their children's genitalia…

They want to make drag shows and sex acts in public socially acceptable…

I fear this world cannot be saved without a major uprising…

If you truly think that, then you are the one who is brainwashed…

Nothing could be further from the truth…

FireAg said:

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Zarathustra said:

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FireAg said:

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Zarathustra said:

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No one takes him seriously.

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Whether you like it or not, 10s of millions of people take him seriously...or at the very least, they favor him...

That's the reality...so I fail to see how trying to alienate and marginalize 10s of millions of voters is going to get your preferred choice elected...

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I don't know what to tell you. Hes acted like a clown since the election. He went from scorch Earth against DeSantis which makes zero sense. If anyone is alienating voters it's trump..

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You might be 100% correct...

Doesn't change the fact that 10s of million of Americans still support the man...

Call it the "Trump Voting Bloc" if you want, but whatever R name winds up at the top of the ballot next November, they are going to need the "Trump Voting Bloc" to get themselves elected...

That's a fact...

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Trump will also need some of the folks that absolutely hate him if he wants to win the Swing States and a lot of them are never, ever voting for him. They didn't in 2020 and they hate him more now. Trump has pissed on and poured gasoline and a match on the 5-10% of Swing voters in GA and AZ especially that are crucial to winning those states and there is no path to the WH without them.

The Trump voting bloc is real but if DeSantis says he will pardon Trump they will vote for him. They may not like it but what choice is left? Biden will put Trump in prison for life and probably go after Trump's family and there will be nothing to stop him.

Biden won't…he's so ****ed up, he doesn't know whether to wind his ass or scratch his watch…

The deep state? Yes…they absolutely will, and they exist on both sides of the aisle…

FireAg said:

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Our world is being taken over by people who think sexual deviancy and debauchery should be acceptable…

People literally want to legalize a parent's desire to mutilate their children's genitalia…

They want to make drag shows and sex acts in public socially acceptable…

I fear this world cannot be saved without a major uprising…

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And you'd choose an 80 year old man to lead that "uprising"?

Old May Banker said:

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FireAg said:

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Our world is being taken over by people who think sexual deviancy and debauchery should be acceptable…

People literally want to legalize a parent's desire to mutilate their children's genitalia…

They want to make drag shows and sex acts in public socially acceptable…

I fear this world cannot be saved without a major uprising…

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And you'd choose an 80 year old man to lead that "uprising"?

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To date, he is the only one who was able to stick his finger in the eye of those who want a world that looks like that and achieve the top office in the land by telling them to go **** themselves…

It's not the man I celebrate, it's the mission…I'll support anyone who tells the establishment to go **** themselves…

FireAg said:

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Our world is being taken over by people who think sexual deviancy and debauchery should be acceptable…

People literally want to legalize a parent's desire to mutilate their children's genitalia…

They want to make drag shows and sex acts in public socially acceptable…

I fear this world cannot be saved without a major uprising…

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But he doesn't think "woke" is a big deal. There's "Caitlyn" Jenner he runs out there, the trans in the Miss Universe pageant, etc.