OFFICIAL ****Donald Trump versus Ron DeSantis*** thread...

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FireAg
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Oh I'm no huge fan of Trans in general, but I believe an adult can do as an adult pleases…

When you start trying to **** children though, I draw the line…
aggie93
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Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol
You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.


So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.
Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.


Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.
These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.
If you want to understand who DeSantis is and don't want to look at what he has done as Governor then look at who is writing his plans and are his closest allies, Chip Roy and Thomas Massie. DeSantis FOUNDED the Freedom Caucus with guys like Jim Jordan. He voted AGAINST Ryan as Speaker long ago.

It's like saying Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are Establishment.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
aggie93
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Funky Winkerbean said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

FireAg said:

DeSantis needs Trump voters' votes to win…


Trump needs all of Desantis' voter's votes to win the general plus some of the middle's votes So maybe he (Trump) should stop pissing them off.
DeSantis voters will vote for Biden before Trump.
Only the CM types that can't stand Trump. Most of us will vote for either because we don't like communists even if we think DeSantis is a far better choice than Trump and know he has almost no chance of winning. Virtually all of them voted for Trump last time.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
Old May Banker
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Perhaps when you look outside of Trump, you'll begin to see that just because he's the most egotistical, he's not the only one fighting for you. Just because he calls other decent men names - doesn't mean they really are.

Look at what he did with 2A when convenient... or his comments on DeSantis abortion stance being too tough... how he addresses folks that stood by his side...

Why'd he endorse RDS if he was "Desanctamonious" ? Why'd he hire all those "weak" or "sorry" people?

Piss on him. Dude is an unhinged, 80 year old carnival barker, selling pokemon cards and steak knives while telling you it's "Everyone else that's a grifter"
BigRobSA
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FireAg said:

DeSantis needs Trump voters' votes to win…

Desantis isn't doing anything against them, nor Trump. He's just doing the opposite of Trump...Winning at every turn and setting up conservative legislation.


Trump is the blathering moron who should STFU and concentrate on the liberals, even though he is one too.
Old May Banker
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BigRobSA said:

FireAg said:

DeSantis needs Trump voters' votes to win…

Desantis isn't doing anything against them, nor Trump. He's just doing the opposite of Trump...Winning at every turn and setting up conservative legislation.


Trump is the blathering moron who should STFU and concentrate on the liberals, even though he is one too.

Hear, hear...
aggie93
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FireAg said:

I'm pretty sure you just made a completely baseless assumption in your head, shoved your hand all they up your poop chute, and pulled that out of your ass…

Talk about convincing yourself that something is fact when it isn't…
I have responded to at least half a dozen posts where people said this almost precisely. Had another one today. There are definitely Trump folks who just can't imagine that someone else can win except Trump and that if it isn't Trump then that would almost be more painful. It frustrates the hell out of me.

I am not saying you or Tea Party are in that group btw, you are engaging in real discussion and seem to have an open mind. I just can't count how many times I have asked for a Trump supporter to explain to me how Trump can win GA or AZ after he has done everything possible to piss off Kemp and McCain voters respectively and they never have an answer. It falls back to talking about cheating or how terrible those folks are if they answer at all.

It's about winning. If you can't win then everything else is academic. The amazing thing in this election is the more electable candidate is far more conservative and has done more to absolutely destroy the Establishment and Democrats than anyone since Reagan. Eventually I hope you can see that.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
Tea Party
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aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

Charpie said:

I think the hardest pill to swallow with trump is that he simply cannot win the general. He may have a very loyal, rabid primary following, but that's really it. The rest of us are seeing the long game. trump supporters aren't, and if you aren't thinking past the primary, you're not going to win.
I think it's the exact opposite. The people advocating for Trump, or more accurately are advocating against the big gov establishment, are the ones looking at the long game.

The people that think we can continue voting for the GOP types that have enabled the country to spiral out of control are the ones that are only looking a single election cycle at a time.

Neither side is wrong and both sides have merits, but to claim that Trump voters are not looking at the long game is naive at best or a disagreement on what timeframe the "long game" is in play.
Trump literally just had an event with LINDSAY GRAHAM where he claimed Lindsay was VERY CONSERVATIVE. Just absorb that for a minute.

BSC Trump is unfortunately the only placeholder for an anti establishment vote, as of now. His antics recently are hurting that label he's got going for him as you rightly pointed out, which when the label is removed his followers will likely move to whomever next carries the anti establishment label. Hopefully DeSantis.

Trump is a buffoon and that will not change. I think everyone here agrees, even the Trump primary supporters. But attacking him being a buffoon is not the way to win over Trump voters, nor are name calling them. Pointing out that an anti establishment vote can happen with DeSantis is the way, but it may take time while DeSantis ramps up his campaign.

The best way to unite the Trump voters and the DeSantis voters is for DeSantis to go harder against the establishment. Don't play to win, but rather play to tear the establishment down without the childish antics that Trump could not let go of. That will provide the anti establishment placeholder the Trump voters are voting for and help DeSantis win.
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FireAg
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You sure it isn't the same small handful of people?

Some of y'all hear someone say one semi-positive thing about Trump and you lose your **** and label them as cult followers before you even listen to what they are saying…

You're reaction is just as bad as those who speak in absolutes on the other side the argument…

Guess what? You're both wrong…
Old May Banker
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Quote:

But attacking him being a buffoon is not the way to win over Trump voters, nor are name calling them.

Only lord Trump is allowed to criticize others with names like "milk toast, Ada, lying Ted, DeSanctimonious, Sloppy Chris" etc?

lmfao about RDS voters need to be kind...
BigRobSA
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Tea Party said:


BSC Trump is unfortunately the only placeholder for an anti establishment vote, as of now.



Bull*****

He's been part of "the establishment", for decades. Even admitting so, himself.

He's a liberal, loudmouth that started us down the current inflationary track (Biden turned it to 11) with his idiotic liberal spending and other fiscal silliness.
aggie93
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FireAg said:

Biden won't…he's so ****ed up, he doesn't know whether to wind his ass or scratch his watch…

The deep state? Yes…they absolutely will, and they exist on both sides of the aisle…
It's all the same thing. Personally I think the real plan for the D's is to get Trump to be the R candidate and then switch out Biden with Newsom. Trump will lose badly to Newsom because Newsom is free of any of the DC mess and controversies. He's worse than Biden of course but both are just proxies and grifters, he's just a younger and better looking version. Virtually all of Trump's campaign is about how he has been screwed over by the Deep State but Newsom is just far enough away that won't work. Who cares that Biden is corrupt if he isn't the candidate? I mean certainly I will vote for Trump but I know he will get hammered.

DeSantis will absolutely destroy Newsom though because that race comes down to "What do you want, California or Florida?"

I guess part of my perspective is I have some friends that are hard core Dems. They are basically a running MSNBC commentary but we have some real discussions. They are giddy about Trump being the nominee because they know he can't win. Everything they have set up is about Trump. DeSantis though scares the crap out of them. They even admit listening to him that he makes a lot of sense and while they disagree on most issues they know he is very, very effective and very hard to attack. He has no personal baggage and that forces them to fight on issues alone and they lose fighting on issues straight up. Especially with someone that can communicate and is disciplined.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
Tea Party
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aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol
You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.


So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.
Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.


Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.
These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.
If you want to understand who DeSantis is and don't want to look at what he has done as Governor then look at who is writing his plans and are his closest allies, Chip Roy and Thomas Massie. DeSantis FOUNDED the Freedom Caucus with guys like Jim Jordan. He voted AGAINST Ryan as Speaker long ago.

It's like saying Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are Establishment.
You will have to back up your assertion that I do not want to look at what DeSantis has done as Governor. That is an outright lie.....The same for implying what i am saying is like calling Paul and Cruz as establishment. Nothing that I have said would lead any person to believe that that is what i was implying unless either I relayed my message poorly or the reader was not processing it properly.

Again, I am not against DeSantis or any conservative that advocates conservative ideology as I have said countless times.... There are more within the GOP that do not fit that bill than there are that do fit it, which I know is something most here would not agree with but are starting to realize.

I simply said that when the pendulum swings to the right it does not swing hard and that is because of down ballot votes hindering the conservative voices like the Cruz, Paul, Roy, or even Trump in 2016 though he is not conservative. Having a few key people that advocate for the right things is great, but at this point in time with the government as bloated and corrupt as it is, it's like putting flex seal on a sinking ship. It's maintaining the status quo.

We both want a conservative America. You just think that DeSantis can make that happen. I don't think anyone can make that happen outside of a massive awakening of the sheeple. I hope DeSantis can awaken the sheep and there is still time for him to do it, but until then Trump is the unfortunate placeholder for the establishment protest vote though his actions recently are hurting the silver platter the D's are handing him.
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Tea Party
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Old May Banker said:

Quote:

But attacking him being a buffoon is not the way to win over Trump voters, nor are name calling them.

Only lord Trump is allowed to criticize others with names like "milk toast, Ada, lying Ted, DeSanctimonious, Sloppy Chris" etc?

lmfao about RDS voters need to be kind...
I explicitly said Trumps childish antics are hurting him if you read the whole thing and don't take quotes out of context. Essentially saying that you also using the same childish name calling antics are hurting your cause in bringing Trump voters to the DeSantis side....
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aggie93
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FireAg said:

You sure it isn't the same small handful of people?

Some of y'all hear someone say one semi-positive thing about Trump and you lose your **** and label them as cult followers before you even listen to what they are saying…

You're reaction is just as bad as those who speak in absolutes on the other side the argument…

Guess what? You're both wrong…
I've never used the term "Cult 45" and try to separate Trump followers from Trump. I have admonished people on here for exactly that issue. I've gone out of my way to also put Trump voters into different groups, you have the extreme minority and then you have the rest who like Trump but would be fine with DeSantis they just don't know him as well.

TA is only one place, there are many others you can see the hardcore Trump folks who literally follow Laura Loomer like she is gospel and think Trump is too soft on DeSantis and his supporters. I think a lot of those folks are also bots or trolls. They clean them up here.

I've also gone out of my way to praise Trump on the things he did well and that I agree with him on. For instance I think Trump is stronger on Foreign Policy than DeSantis even though I think DeSantis is much stronger than most Trump folks understand and they don't realize that he has legitimate experience there from serving on Foreign Relations in the House among other things. I think that Trump and DeSantis are aligned about 90% on policy. The main difference is Trump is a Populist, DeSantis is a Conservative. Trump will sell out principles without hesitation because he isn't doesn't really care about Woke issues or gun control or abortion and if you listen to him that's not hard to see. DeSantis will stand and fight on those issues because he truly believes in them and he has shown that repeatedly.

"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
aggie93
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Tea Party said:

aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol
You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.


So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.
Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.


Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.
These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.
If you want to understand who DeSantis is and don't want to look at what he has done as Governor then look at who is writing his plans and are his closest allies, Chip Roy and Thomas Massie. DeSantis FOUNDED the Freedom Caucus with guys like Jim Jordan. He voted AGAINST Ryan as Speaker long ago.

It's like saying Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are Establishment.
You will have to back up your assertion that I do not want to look at what DeSantis has done as Governor. That is an outright lie.....The same for implying what i am saying is like calling Paul and Cruz as establishment. Nothing that I have said would lead any person to believe that that is what i was implying unless either I relayed my message poorly or the reader was not processing it properly.

Again, I am not against DeSantis or any conservative that advocates conservative ideology as I have said countless times.... There are more within the GOP that do not fit that bill than there are that do fit it, which I know is something most here would not agree with but are starting to realize.

I simply said that when the pendulum swings to the right it does not swing hard and that is because of down ballot votes hindering the conservative voices like the Cruz, Paul, Roy, or even Trump in 2016 though he is not conservative. Having a few key people that advocate for the right things is great, but at this point in time with the government as bloated and corrupt as it is, it's like putting flex seal on a sinking ship. It's maintaining the status quo.

We both want a conservative America. You just think that DeSantis can make that happen. I don't think anyone can make that happen outside of a massive awakening of the sheeple. I hope DeSantis can awaken the sheep and there is still time for him to do it, but until then Trump is the unfortunate placeholder for the establishment protest vote though his actions recently are hurting the silver platter the D's are handing him.
My point isn't to berate you but to educate you. When DeSantis was in the House he was exactly like Roy or Cruz or Paul or Massie. So when you say he has anything to do with the Establishment it indicates you don't know him. I only brought up FL because clearly no sane person could say his agenda in FL are remotely "Establishment", so it must be something else. He literally has a more conservative record than Cruz because Cruz has actually worked with some Democrats and had Fiorina as his VP. DeSantis doesn't do that, he destroys Democrats and is downright ruthless behind that smile. He would never have a moderate like Fiorina as VP. So if your bar is Cruz realize DeSantis is to his RIGHT. That leaves Trump pretty far Left.

Look at the positions and the accomplishments and the actions. It's all there.
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BigRobSA said:

Tea Party said:


BSC Trump is unfortunately the only placeholder for an anti establishment vote, as of now.



Bull*****

He's been part of "the establishment", for decades. Even admitting so, himself.

He's a liberal, loudmouth that started us down the current inflationary track (Biden turned it to 11) with his idiotic liberal spending and other fiscal silliness.
Let's put it this way, I would venture that most Trump voters would be happy if Trump won the presidency as a show of protest against the establishment and big gov in general, then Trump did absolutely nothing for four years outside of answering the call in times of emergency.

No mean tweets. No EO's. No appearances. Just a placeholder that we are sick of big gov.

They do not care FOR Trump the person, but rather care to vote AGAINST the uni-party establishment.

By the time the primary gets here I would assume that DeSantis would have shown that he has earned the anti-establishment vote. He may have already earned it in your mind, which is completely fair, but with a little more time for him to attack the establishment on both sides I would also assume the Trump crowd would enthusiastically walk away from the childish Trump and walk over glass to support DeSantis.

It's June 2023 and we are arguing over something that will likely be a non-issue. I want DeSantis to go after the establishment. If he doesnt, I support a protest vote for Trump but I have high hopes that DeSantis will be worth voting for.
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aggie93 said:

Funky Winkerbean said:

Quote:

Trump was utterly ineffective against the establishment. That has been pointed out ad nauseum.
Do you think the FBI circulating a letter saying he was a Russian operative had anything to do with that? Who would you expect to align with him if they had read that letter?

Trump was sabotaged by our own government.
Who appointed the AG, FBI Director, etc that sabotaged him again? It sucks what happened to him but Trump is still hanging around with any Swamp creature who will have him. Say something nice about him and he still loves you. How can people not see this? It's not like he is hiding the ball here.
You don't seem to grasp the magnitude of the sabotage. All you guys sound the same with this regurgitated hate for Trump. It's all you see, and you can't grasp that his supporters don't give a **** about his personality. The only reason he could not gather support from his party is because of the FBI. You also don't recognize that it neutered him from getting anywhere with striking back. The political risk was too great for other republicans to attach to his causes. It's the greatest political crime committed in this country..period.
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Trump walked around stepping on rakes then blamed everyone else for his failures. He was an incompetent clown with a circus administration.

It's time for a competent actual conservative and we have a great candidate for that.
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aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol
You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.


So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.
Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.


Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.
These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.
If you want to understand who DeSantis is and don't want to look at what he has done as Governor then look at who is writing his plans and are his closest allies, Chip Roy and Thomas Massie. DeSantis FOUNDED the Freedom Caucus with guys like Jim Jordan. He voted AGAINST Ryan as Speaker long ago.

It's like saying Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are Establishment.
You will have to back up your assertion that I do not want to look at what DeSantis has done as Governor. That is an outright lie.....The same for implying what i am saying is like calling Paul and Cruz as establishment. Nothing that I have said would lead any person to believe that that is what i was implying unless either I relayed my message poorly or the reader was not processing it properly.

Again, I am not against DeSantis or any conservative that advocates conservative ideology as I have said countless times.... There are more within the GOP that do not fit that bill than there are that do fit it, which I know is something most here would not agree with but are starting to realize.

I simply said that when the pendulum swings to the right it does not swing hard and that is because of down ballot votes hindering the conservative voices like the Cruz, Paul, Roy, or even Trump in 2016 though he is not conservative. Having a few key people that advocate for the right things is great, but at this point in time with the government as bloated and corrupt as it is, it's like putting flex seal on a sinking ship. It's maintaining the status quo.

We both want a conservative America. You just think that DeSantis can make that happen. I don't think anyone can make that happen outside of a massive awakening of the sheeple. I hope DeSantis can awaken the sheep and there is still time for him to do it, but until then Trump is the unfortunate placeholder for the establishment protest vote though his actions recently are hurting the silver platter the D's are handing him.
My point isn't to berate you but to educate you. When DeSantis was in the House he was exactly like Roy or Cruz or Paul or Massie. So when you say he has anything to do with the Establishment it indicates you don't know him. I only brought up FL because clearly no sane person could say his agenda in FL are remotely "Establishment", so it must be something else. He literally has a more conservative record than Cruz because Cruz has actually worked with some Democrats and had Fiorina as his VP. DeSantis doesn't do that, he destroys Democrats and is downright ruthless behind that smile. He would never have a moderate like Fiorina as VP. So if your bar is Cruz realize DeSantis is to his RIGHT. That leaves Trump pretty far Left.

Look at the positions and the accomplishments and the actions. It's all there.
I never once said I think DeSantis is establishment nor do I believe that. I did however say that I am unsure if he is anti-establishment, though I have a strong feeling that he is but has not shown it at a large scale yet.

But again, I admit I am not 100% in tune with his actions. I do know however that he does not yet widely target the vast majority of the GOP that are complicit in compromising on cornerstones of the GOP platform such as small government, border security, and the role of the military. He may whip some votes to win small battles here and there, but he is not actively saying these people are weak in supporting the key conservative pillars unless coerced.

I also said above that this is a pointless conversation in June 2023 since DeSantis' campaign has only just recently kicked off, but I would assume he will become more vocal about being anti-establishment then Trump supporters will rally behind DeSantis when the primary starts.

I know this is a ridiculously high bar I am holding DeSantis to which is unfair, but I only do that because I believe our country is at the point that it cannot be saved from within the current governernment system. The issue is two-fold: gov is too bloated and clearly has evolved to preserve itself at the expense of citizens, and the leftist and conservative ideologies are wholely incompatible with zero room for long term compromise.
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Tea Party said:

aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol
You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.


So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.
Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.


Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.
These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.
If you want to understand who DeSantis is and don't want to look at what he has done as Governor then look at who is writing his plans and are his closest allies, Chip Roy and Thomas Massie. DeSantis FOUNDED the Freedom Caucus with guys like Jim Jordan. He voted AGAINST Ryan as Speaker long ago.

It's like saying Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are Establishment.
You will have to back up your assertion that I do not want to look at what DeSantis has done as Governor. That is an outright lie.....The same for implying what i am saying is like calling Paul and Cruz as establishment. Nothing that I have said would lead any person to believe that that is what i was implying unless either I relayed my message poorly or the reader was not processing it properly.

Again, I am not against DeSantis or any conservative that advocates conservative ideology as I have said countless times.... There are more within the GOP that do not fit that bill than there are that do fit it, which I know is something most here would not agree with but are starting to realize.

I simply said that when the pendulum swings to the right it does not swing hard and that is because of down ballot votes hindering the conservative voices like the Cruz, Paul, Roy, or even Trump in 2016 though he is not conservative. Having a few key people that advocate for the right things is great, but at this point in time with the government as bloated and corrupt as it is, it's like putting flex seal on a sinking ship. It's maintaining the status quo.

We both want a conservative America. You just think that DeSantis can make that happen. I don't think anyone can make that happen outside of a massive awakening of the sheeple. I hope DeSantis can awaken the sheep and there is still time for him to do it, but until then Trump is the unfortunate placeholder for the establishment protest vote though his actions recently are hurting the silver platter the D's are handing him.
My point isn't to berate you but to educate you. When DeSantis was in the House he was exactly like Roy or Cruz or Paul or Massie. So when you say he has anything to do with the Establishment it indicates you don't know him. I only brought up FL because clearly no sane person could say his agenda in FL are remotely "Establishment", so it must be something else. He literally has a more conservative record than Cruz because Cruz has actually worked with some Democrats and had Fiorina as his VP. DeSantis doesn't do that, he destroys Democrats and is downright ruthless behind that smile. He would never have a moderate like Fiorina as VP. So if your bar is Cruz realize DeSantis is to his RIGHT. That leaves Trump pretty far Left.

Look at the positions and the accomplishments and the actions. It's all there.
I never once said I think DeSantis is establishment nor do I believe that. I did however say that I am unsure if he is anti-establishment, though I have a strong feeling that he is but has not shown it at a large scale yet.

But again, I admit I am not 100% in tune with his actions. I do know however that he does not yet widely target the vast majority of the GOP that are complicit in compromising on cornerstones of the GOP platform such as small government, border security, and the role of the military. He may whip some votes to win small battles here and there, but he is not actively saying these people are weak in supporting the key conservative pillars unless coerced.

I know this is a ridiculously high bar I am holding DeSantis to which is unfair, but I only do that because I believe our country is at the point that it cannot be saved from within the current governernment system. The issue is two-fold: gov is too bloated and clearly has evolved to preserve itself at the expense of citizens, and the leftist and conservative ideologies are wholely incompatible with zero room for long term compromise.
I think you confuse tactics with actions. DeSantis' actions have been far more anti establishment than Trump could ever dream of. He just doesn't insult people in the GOP openly like Trump does. He is a lot smarter than that. Cross him in Florida and pay the consequences. He plays rough and he doesn't tolerate leakers or dissenters. He knows how to organize and exert pressure. He just does it behind the scenes but it's there.

It's about knowing how to exert pressure and get things done not grandstanding.
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Funky Winkerbean said:

aggie93 said:

Funky Winkerbean said:

Quote:

Trump was utterly ineffective against the establishment. That has been pointed out ad nauseum.
Do you think the FBI circulating a letter saying he was a Russian operative had anything to do with that? Who would you expect to align with him if they had read that letter?

Trump was sabotaged by our own government.
Who appointed the AG, FBI Director, etc that sabotaged him again? It sucks what happened to him but Trump is still hanging around with any Swamp creature who will have him. Say something nice about him and he still loves you. How can people not see this? It's not like he is hiding the ball here.
You don't seem to grasp the magnitude of the sabotage. All you guys sound the same with this regurgitated hate for Trump. It's all you see, and you can't grasp that his supporters don't give a **** about his personality. The only reason he could not gather support from his party is because of the FBI. You also don't recognize that it neutered him from getting anywhere with striking back. The political risk was too great for other republicans to attach to his causes. It's the greatest political crime committed in this country..period.
I completely get the magnitude of the sabotage and understand how difficult it will be for anyone to be effective against it. I DGAF about Trump's personality nearly as much as I do his lack of effectiveness, electibility, age, baggage, or lack of a conservative foundation. The few times he has talked policy against DeSantis he is attacking him from the LEFT.

Most of all though it is clear Trump hasn't learned. No more clear example than hanging out with Lindsay Graham and leaning on him hard to help him win South Carolina. Look at Trump's team and who he has around him, outside of a few it's not a reason for optimism. You do realize that Graham is almost certainly going to be his AG right? You think Lindsay Graham will clean up the DOJ and drain the Swamp? Same thing as when he appointed Sessions last time. TRUMP is the one who doesn't understand what he is up against and how to fight it. It takes more than speeches.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

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aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol
You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.


So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.
Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.


Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.
These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.
If you want to understand who DeSantis is and don't want to look at what he has done as Governor then look at who is writing his plans and are his closest allies, Chip Roy and Thomas Massie. DeSantis FOUNDED the Freedom Caucus with guys like Jim Jordan. He voted AGAINST Ryan as Speaker long ago.

It's like saying Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are Establishment.
You will have to back up your assertion that I do not want to look at what DeSantis has done as Governor. That is an outright lie.....The same for implying what i am saying is like calling Paul and Cruz as establishment. Nothing that I have said would lead any person to believe that that is what i was implying unless either I relayed my message poorly or the reader was not processing it properly.

Again, I am not against DeSantis or any conservative that advocates conservative ideology as I have said countless times.... There are more within the GOP that do not fit that bill than there are that do fit it, which I know is something most here would not agree with but are starting to realize.

I simply said that when the pendulum swings to the right it does not swing hard and that is because of down ballot votes hindering the conservative voices like the Cruz, Paul, Roy, or even Trump in 2016 though he is not conservative. Having a few key people that advocate for the right things is great, but at this point in time with the government as bloated and corrupt as it is, it's like putting flex seal on a sinking ship. It's maintaining the status quo.

We both want a conservative America. You just think that DeSantis can make that happen. I don't think anyone can make that happen outside of a massive awakening of the sheeple. I hope DeSantis can awaken the sheep and there is still time for him to do it, but until then Trump is the unfortunate placeholder for the establishment protest vote though his actions recently are hurting the silver platter the D's are handing him.
My point isn't to berate you but to educate you. When DeSantis was in the House he was exactly like Roy or Cruz or Paul or Massie. So when you say he has anything to do with the Establishment it indicates you don't know him. I only brought up FL because clearly no sane person could say his agenda in FL are remotely "Establishment", so it must be something else. He literally has a more conservative record than Cruz because Cruz has actually worked with some Democrats and had Fiorina as his VP. DeSantis doesn't do that, he destroys Democrats and is downright ruthless behind that smile. He would never have a moderate like Fiorina as VP. So if your bar is Cruz realize DeSantis is to his RIGHT. That leaves Trump pretty far Left.

Look at the positions and the accomplishments and the actions. It's all there.
I never once said I think DeSantis is establishment nor do I believe that. I did however say that I am unsure if he is anti-establishment, though I have a strong feeling that he is but has not shown it at a large scale yet.

But again, I admit I am not 100% in tune with his actions. I do know however that he does not yet widely target the vast majority of the GOP that are complicit in compromising on cornerstones of the GOP platform such as small government, border security, and the role of the military. He may whip some votes to win small battles here and there, but he is not actively saying these people are weak in supporting the key conservative pillars unless coerced.

I know this is a ridiculously high bar I am holding DeSantis to which is unfair, but I only do that because I believe our country is at the point that it cannot be saved from within the current governernment system. The issue is two-fold: gov is too bloated and clearly has evolved to preserve itself at the expense of citizens, and the leftist and conservative ideologies are wholely incompatible with zero room for long term compromise.
I think you confuse tactics with actions. DeSantis' actions have been far more anti establishment than Trump could ever dream of. He just doesn't insult people in the GOP openly like Trump does. He is a lot smarter than that. Cross him in Florida and pay the consequences. He plays rough and he doesn't tolerate leakers or dissenters. He knows how to organize and exert pressure. He just does it behind the scenes but it's there.

It's about knowing how to exert pressure and get things done not grandstanding.
Hmm... You bring up a great point that I may have been incorrect about. My assumption for supporting a vocal anti-establishment type that Trump represents (not Trump himself) is that the sheep can more easily see which politicians are hindering the conservative ideology.

If DeSantis can work well with snakes to gain ground on the conservative side then maybe the voters get duped to voting for the snakes again... Hopefully DeSantis makes it known that we are gaining ground in spite of the snakes rather than because of the snakes, then the Trump supporters may find solace in supporting DeSantis and casting aside the Trump protest vote.

I would just like to see DeSantis put more emphasis on the people that need to be coerced into advocating the conservative ideology. Making gains without calling them out is a short term plan, not a long term plan in my opinion.
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TRM
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AG
I used to be the same way, but when you hear about stuff like sex ed booths for kindergarteners at pride events, your perspective changes.
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BigRobSA
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Funky Winkerbean said:

aggie93 said:

Funky Winkerbean said:

Quote:

Trump was utterly ineffective against the establishment. That has been pointed out ad nauseum.
Do you think the FBI circulating a letter saying he was a Russian operative had anything to do with that? Who would you expect to align with him if they had read that letter?

Trump was sabotaged by our own government.
Who appointed the AG, FBI Director, etc that sabotaged him again? It sucks what happened to him but Trump is still hanging around with any Swamp creature who will have him. Say something nice about him and he still loves you. How can people not see this? It's not like he is hiding the ball here.
You don't seem to grasp the magnitude of the sabotage. All you guys sound the same with this regurgitated hate for Trump. It's all you see, and you can't grasp that his supporters don't give a **** about his personality. The only reason he could not gather support from his party is because of the FBI. You also don't recognize that it neutered him from getting anywhere with striking back. The political risk was too great for other republicans to attach to his causes. It's the greatest political crime committed in this country..period.


I couldn't give a flying **** about "mean tweets", in general.

I don't vote for, nor support, liberals. So, I can't support Trump. ESPECIALLY when we have a once in a generation conservative leader, in Desantis, to select.

Trump isn't a leader, even remotely, so that hurt him along with Rs going against him at times. That much is evident from his horrible hires and support of Fauci, etc. during his COVID debacle.
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LMCane
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ignorant Trumpbots hear Trump speaking on audio tape with their own ears

LITERALLY TELL PEOPLE HE HAS SECRET CLASSIFIED WAR DOCUMENTS which he should not possess and their response is:

"See! Trump never had secret classified war documents- it's all the Deep State!!"

also notice these tapes were held by the Special Prosecutor for a year with no leaks- as soon as they had to turn the evidence over to the defense team, they leak 6 days later. coincidence!!
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CNN obtains the tape of Trump's 2021 conversation about classified documents
Jeremy Herb

BEDMINSTER, NEW JERSEY - JUNE 13: Former U.S. President Donald Trump delivers remarks outside the clubhouse at the Trump National Golf Club on June 13, 2023 in Bedminster, New Jersey. Earlier in the day, Trump was arraigned in federal court in Miami on 37 felony charges, including illegally retaining defense secrets and obstructing the government's efforts to reclaim the classified documents.

Listen to audio exclusively obtained by CNN of a July 2021 conversation during which former President Donald Trump acknowledges he held on to a classified Pentagon document about a potential attack on Iran.

The recording, which first aired on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360," includes new details from the conversation that is a critical piece of evidence in special counsel Jack Smith's indictment of Trump over the mishandling of classified information, including a moment when Trump seems to indicate he was holding a secret Pentagon document with plans to attack Iran.

"These are the papers," Trump says in the audio recording, while he's discussing the Pentagon attack plans, a quote that was not included in the indictment.

In the two-minute audio recording, Trump and his aides also joke about Hillary Clinton's emails after the former president says that the document was "secret information."

"Hillary would print that out all the time, you know. Her private emails," Trump's staffer said.

"No, she'd send it to Anthony Weiner," Trump responded, referring to the former Democratic congressman, prompting laughter in the room.

Trump's statements on the audio recording, saying "these are the papers" and referring to something he calls "highly confidential" and seems to be showing others in the room, could undercut the former president's claims in an interview last week with Fox News' Bret Baier that he did not have any documents with him.

"There was no document. That was a massive amount of papers and everything else talking about Iran and other things," Trump said on Fox. "And it may have been held up or may not, but that was not a document. I didn't have a document, per se. There was nothing to declassify. These were newspaper stories, magazine stories and articles."

Trump pleaded not guilty earlier this month to 37 counts related to the alleged mishandling of classified documents kept at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Palm Beach, Florida.

The audio recording comes from a July 2021 interview Trump gave at his Bedminster resort for people working on the memoir of Mark Meadows, Trump's former chief of staff. The special counsel's indictment alleges that those in attendance a writer, publisher and two of Trump's staff members were shown classified information about the plan of attack on Iran.

Trump offers dizzying new justifications for classified documents as former Cabinet secretaries sound the alarm
The episode is one of two referenced in the indictment where prosecutors allege that Trump showed classified information to others who did not have security clearances.

CNN has previously reported that Trump at the time was furious over a New Yorker article about Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Mark Milley that said Milley argued against striking Iran and was concerned Trump would set in motion a full-scale conflict
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Trump doing Trump stuff. He literally had 2 nights of coverage a few days ago with his interview. Unfortunately he didn't do well so it is of course Fox's fault.


"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
LMCane
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Zarathustra said:


I till don't know a single person that's voting for Trump this time. I'm convinced all the trump support online is manufactured or dem trolling.


well it's a FACT that Trump has entire armies of bots online hired from an Israeli tech firm.

they admit it.

so it's not surprising to see the stupid automated responses "fading", "proven warrior", "revenge on the swamp" all the stupid Trump "supporters" using the same 6 words simultaneously.
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FireAg said:

Perhaps, but then those who favor DeSantis should be working harder to build bridges with those who prefer Trump, rather than call them names and label them as cultists...

Whether folks want to admit it or not, a very large portion of the R-base is still very much pro-Trump, and the more the Left tries to bury him with fake charges and crimes, the stronger their resolve seems to become...

Yet no one on the DeSantis side seems to want to reach out to those on the Trump side to find common ground...all they care to do is attack anyone who says anything positive about Trump...

this is pure insanity. You are claiming that TRUMP supporters, who back the most vile candidate in US history as far as insulting, slandering, making fun of everyone and every organization that dare oppose him for years on end. the guy who insults the wives of his political opponents.

THOSE voters might have their feelings hurt by DeSantis online supporters?!

do you actually read the stuff you post?!?

it's the height of hypocritical beta males to whine about poor Trump voters- who get their feels hurt from DeSantis supporters.
LMCane
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The Banned said:

FireAg said:

The Banned said:

FireAg said:

Perhaps, but then those who favor DeSantis should be working harder to build bridges with those who prefer Trump, rather than call them names and label them as cultists...

Whether folks want to admit it or not, a very large portion of the R-base is still very much pro-Trump, and the more the Left tries to bury him with fake charges and crimes, the stronger their resolve seems to become...

Yet no one on the DeSantis side seems to want to reach out to those on the Trump side to find common ground...all they care to do is attack anyone who says anything positive about Trump...


Trumps team has done nothing by name call and slander. Most trump supporters believe him. How does one institute a quality reach out program?
I'm sorry...but how exactly do you know that "most" Trump supporters believe him? Where is that statistic or are you just pulling stuff out of your ass?

I'll vote for whomever is the R at the top of the ballot in 2024, but I don't despise Trump, and I don't take his antics in political warfare all that seriously...

In fact, I would argue that there are a great many folks out there who are probably just like me...

But nope...if you have any positive feeling at all about Trump, some of you feel it necessary to shame such individuals...

Two wrongs make a right, I guess? Good luck with that...


We all live in our bubbles. We can only go off of what we see and the vocal trump supporters here just toss out TDS on repeat.

It is a shame there is so much division on the right. The divisiveness has obviously started from one side. Say what you want about two wrongs, but we never get here if trump wasn't bashing the most conservative candidate we've had in decades.

let's not allow the Trumpers to create their revisionist history as they try to do on every single subject:

since the time that Trump came down his elevator and called Mexicans "rapists" to insulting Carly Fiorina's looks at a debate, to attacking Ted Cruz's wife as being ugly and his father being some criminal,

to him making fun of handicapped people, to insulting Megyn Kelly, to being a loudmouth lout to women- Trump will insult anyone and everyone who doesn't worship him including DOZENS of conservatives and Republicans.

for any Trumpist to now whine about how poorly they are treated online- is the literal definition of petulant beta hypocrisy.
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Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Voting for 80 year olds isn't a "long game"
Did you not read anything I posted?.?.? I did not say the vote was FOR Trump but rather AGAINST the establishment down ballot. Trump can play golf and nap all day for all I care as long as he's available when the phone rings.

And in the long run, the phone will not ring as often if there are less establishment types down ballot trying to hinder the conservative ideology.

Trump by himself is not the long-term answer. Neither is DeSantis by himself.
The long-term answer is cleaning up the down ballot candidates, and I truly wished DeSantis would put greater emphasis on that. Until he does, the long-term answer is Trump now and the effects down ballot later.

you seem to be one of the only people in the Trump orbit who can actually enunciate a reason to support him.

so kudos on that.

however, have you actually analyzed IF your reason actually holds up to critical analysis?

you seem to be concerned about "down ballot" candidates getting into office who would be more Tea Party and Trumpish.

I presume you mean Trumpian candidates such as Kari Lake (lost), Mehmet Oz (lost), Dan Cox in Maryland (lost), Boluc in New Hampshire (lost), Hershel Walker in Georgia (lost), Tudor Dixon in Michigan (lost), Doug Mastriani in Pennsylvania (lost), Blake Masters in Arizona (lost)

so I am kind of seeing a pattern here with down ballot Trumpians...

so tell us again how nominating Trump gets more conservatives in power?

FL_Ag1998
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Tea Party said:

aggie93 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

FL_Ag1998 said:

Tea Party said:

Old May Banker said:

Yes.... Trump has really proven his ability to "blow up" down ballot votes. lol
You miss the point. The vote is not FOR Trump or his abilities to do anyting really. It's a vote AGAINST the establishment.

The people voting AGAINST the establishment are the types that are willing to vote against the establishment incumbents down ballot.

The sheep in the general that vote for "whoever is the R" will gladly fall in line for the non-establishment types that make it out of the primary.

And to the poster above about my slightly to the right comment, had you read my entire post you would notice it was not in reference to DeSantis himself. He certainly is more conservative than most, however the down ballot R's are what would cripple him just like they crippled Trump. The overall effect is a slight pull to the right then the inevitable big pull left later if you keep playing the status quo game down ballot.


So here's my first question before I respond further to your argument.

Do you truly believe Trump can win the General? I don't mean win it by some miracle convergence of a half dozen factors, but win it outright.
Interesting that political discussion is shut down if it does not revolve around winning the next election....I won't bother bringing up the effects of voting for third party candidates down ballot and how that effects future donations and entrance in future debates.... Sorry if that came off crude. I'm cranky from our Q2 business cycle.

But regardless, yes I absolutely do believe that Trump can win the general. Do I think the chances are a certainty or even a strong favorability, absolutely not. But I feel the same way about DeSantis although I would venture he has a slight advantage to win the general for all the reasons I posted above. People like the status quo...

But on the flip side, if Trump loses and there are signs of large scale shenanigans like the last election (Russian dossier, ballot harvesting, pipe leaks, etc.), then maybe that will be enough to wake the sheeple up to start caring about how big and rogue our government has become. Again, this conversation stemmed from which candidate is best for the long-game.


Ok, my first counterargument...

IMO of course, Desantis isn't favored more than Trump to win the general because he's "status quo". That's simply you believing the Trump campaign pitch. Desantis is favored over Trump in the General because he's not crude and abrasive at every single turn. He's shown with his actions that he is attacking the far left progressive movement that every conservative and the majority of the "middle" are against. He doesn't just make campaign promises that he fails to follow through on and then blame others. If he were simply "status quo" he wouldn't have attracted all of the Democrats over to his side in the election. Go read articles on why they voted for him; they did so because he actually gets things done, things that most people on both sides agree with.

My second counterargument....

At this point, with the general feeling across the entire American population, Trump losing the general election, even to Biden, will not stir up feelings of a controversy. The only people who believe election shenanigans will be die hard trump supporters. The response by the rest of America will be "well yeah, duh of course trump lost, he's a very disagreeable and old candidate who's under indictment". It's not gonna wake anybody up to anything.

But a candidate like Desantis losing to Biden or even Newsome, after what happened in 2020, will absolutely cause many people to suddenly start questioning what does ANY Republican have to do to win an election against a Democrat? And why do Democrats keep winning office when every poll says the majority of Americans are against their policies?

Voting for Trump is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Its not going to change anything. Truly pay attention to what Desantis has done and his plans. Don't view them through the MAGA goggles. Go read some independent accounts, hell read some liberal leaning MSM articles about him.
These are all great points, but Trump voters are voting for something that Trump represents and not for the man himself.

And I did not mean DeSantis himself is the status quo. The political spectrum ends have shifted left over time and the pendulum swings harder to the left than it does to the right through it's cycles. DeSantis winning AND the establishment winning down ballot means we get the same slight shift right while the pendulum favors conservative ideology, but it will swing harder left next time like it always does.

The exact same thing happened to Trump in his first term under Ryan's SOTH tenure, so I am certainly not saying Trump is the cure for the status quo. I am saying that DeSantis is more than likely going to have the same issues so we should not pretend that he is capable of breaking the status quo of one step right now then two steps left later.

You do bring up a good point regarding if either candidate loses though and whether people would sheepishly wait until the next election or if they would say it's time to recognize leftism and conservatism is incompatible and cannot coexist under the same government. I think Trump wakes more people up but honestly you may have convinced me DeSantis losing would wake more people up.

But, I would enthusiastically vote for DeSantis over Trump in the primary if he made a stronger push to get rid of establishment types down ballot. He already is making a strong case for it with his recent three letter agency attacks, but maybe the rest is in the works since he is just now starting his presidential campaign. Then I would hope both the Trump and DeSantis supporters can unify around DeSantis.

Edit: I see you added another post which covers a lot of my concerns. I'm not against DeSantis and know he can advance the conservative agenda to the right. I'm just not confident that the voters at a national level will vote the establishment out thus his term may just be one step right before a bigger step left later, like history has shown. I will have to research his efforts at lower levels in Florida like you said. Maybe he already is doing things that I hoped for and I was naive.
If you want to understand who DeSantis is and don't want to look at what he has done as Governor then look at who is writing his plans and are his closest allies, Chip Roy and Thomas Massie. DeSantis FOUNDED the Freedom Caucus with guys like Jim Jordan. He voted AGAINST Ryan as Speaker long ago.

It's like saying Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are Establishment.
You will have to back up your assertion that I do not want to look at what DeSantis has done as Governor. That is an outright lie.....The same for implying what i am saying is like calling Paul and Cruz as establishment. Nothing that I have said would lead any person to believe that that is what i was implying unless either I relayed my message poorly or the reader was not processing it properly.

Again, I am not against DeSantis or any conservative that advocates conservative ideology as I have said countless times.... There are more within the GOP that do not fit that bill than there are that do fit it, which I know is something most here would not agree with but are starting to realize.

I simply said that when the pendulum swings to the right it does not swing hard and that is because of down ballot votes hindering the conservative voices like the Cruz, Paul, Roy, or even Trump in 2016 though he is not conservative. Having a few key people that advocate for the right things is great, but at this point in time with the government as bloated and corrupt as it is, it's like putting flex seal on a sinking ship. It's maintaining the status quo.

We both want a conservative America. You just think that DeSantis can make that happen. I don't think anyone can make that happen outside of a massive awakening of the sheeple. I hope DeSantis can awaken the sheep and there is still time for him to do it, but until then Trump is the unfortunate placeholder for the establishment protest vote though his actions recently are hurting the silver platter the D's are handing him.


So focus your energy on the down ballot races.

Focusing all your energy on and voting for a lame-duck candidate like Trump at the top of the ticket as your way to protest against the establishment but then just complaining about the results of the down ballot vote doesn't make sense to me.

Vote for someone at the top of the ballot who has already shown by his actions as governor that he's not only against the current establishment but more importantly he's ruthless, cunning, and non-stop in either getting it to fall in line behind him or getting it out of the way.

Trump never once during his four years in office showed the type of coordinated and intelligent planning that Desantis has shown in his time as governor. I'm sure someone will respond with the standard line of "he couldn't because he was sabotaged!"....yes, by the people he hired because he did a piss poor job of building his team! That's the point!

aggie93 brought up a very good point, the key point in my opinion. A general election with Trump as the R candidate makes the race all about Trump's personalities and foibles. The D's are salivating over that prospect. But a race with Desantis as the candidate makes the race about the actual issues, and the D's know in their hearts they can't win that race.

We complain on this forum every day all day long about what the liberals are doing to this country...in other words THE ISSUES....yet some of you want to distract the voters from those issues during the election by making the election about the Republican candidate's personality - a self-promoting, philandering, easily detestable octogenarian!
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