Mainly because those solutions will not be seen as diverse or equitable. Addressing the communities responsible for committing the majority of gun crimes will be seen as racist.halfastros81 said:
Why wouldn't better solutions for mental illness diagnoses and treatment be palatable ?
Gun control and mass shootings
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Last: 1 yr ago by Goro Majima
halfastros81 said:
Why wouldn't better solutions for mental illness diagnoses and treatment be palatable ?
Because often the correct treatment is for the seriously mentally ill to be confined to a mental hospital/asylum.
halfastros81 said:
Why wouldn't better solutions for mental illness diagnoses and treatment be palatable ?
It should be quite palatable but for some reason folks do not seem to get worked up behind it.
Mental health issues have long carried a stigma. Post about suicide on this forum and see how many comments come back regarding what selfish behavior it is or make an immediate correlation to SSRIs or similar. Neither of those do anything to solve the issue, but to demeanor the victim or to attack a politically convenient target.
Mental health facilities in the US were chronically underfunded and suffered criticisms from all angles, some founded and some unfounded. To resolve this, we simply closed these facilities and sent the more violent ones to prison and the less violent ones were turned out to the communities and streets.
When prison populations became the issue, we went through those with "compassion" and turned more out into communities and the streets.
For those with means / healthcare, we medicated and shoved the children and adults into society without knowing the long-term effectiveness of these "treatments".
I am oversimplifying very complex issues for brevity, but there are palatable solutions that people need to have courage to embrace and discuss.
"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown
"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
If that's the case then so be it . The field has advanced quite a bit tho and I think many people that at one time couldn't function without being institutionalized now might be able to. Some people can stay on the right path with outpatient or even some online solutions that formerly were not available.
What seems crazy to me is the way we deal with obvious irrational behavior by ignoring it. It doesn't work. It doesn't make society better .
What seems crazy to me is the way we deal with obvious irrational behavior by ignoring it. It doesn't work. It doesn't make society better .
Idgas about equity or diversity. I do gas about diagnosing and treating mental illness in the interest of making this a better place for all.
Folks like me? Are you carrying your AR around on your back when going to the mall? Because I don't give a **** if you carry your pistol while accompanying your wife to lululemon or wherever. It's not all or nothing, and labeling everyone you don't agree with a a Nazi lib is a big reason nothing can be done. Half of you guys on this forum get winded walking up a flight of stairs, but you are going to defend everyone in the parking lot with your 9mm.Ok.Quote:
It's bad enough that we can't depend on the government and folks like you to protect us.
Gun control nazis just make it harder for law abiding folks to acquire weapons to defend ourselves.
As do I, but based on our last election, the majority of American voters don't agree with you and I on this matter.halfastros81 said:
Idgas about equity or diversity. I do gas about diagnosing and treating mental illness in the interest of making this a better place for all.
How is this even relevant to the conversation? I thought whatabout bull **** was a lib thing.Quote:
Where was this outrage from leftists when government killed thousands under the guise of covid?
The last election was about mean tweets and nothing else. The MSM gaslit everyone for 4 years to make sure of that. Stupid people bought into it.96ags said:As do I, but based on our last election, the majority of American voters don't agree with you and I on this matter.halfastros81 said:
Idgas about equity or diversity. I do gas about diagnosing and treating mental illness in the interest of making this a better place for all.
Maybe it's an opportunity for someone smart to raise the issue to a higher priority level in a party platform. Sounds like a job for Desantis to me.
SteveA-SteveA said:
The fact that we can't converse about the issue without name calling and accusatory liberal memes pretty much solidifies the fact that nothing is going to change.
Your opening position on this matter called for "A ban on semi auto rifles and large capacity magazines would be a start"…. There's no way for you to posit this as a solution and expect folks to take you seriously or knowledgeable on this issue.
We don't enforce the laws we have but I'm sure a few more will fix it.
Total bull*****
Total bull*****
There never was a law that a criminal with intent couldn't break ...... that's probably why they are called criminalsOld May Banker said:
We don't enforce the laws we have but I'm sure a few more will fix it.
Total bull*****
On the contrary, within this very thread we most certainly have seen an agreement that mentally ill people should not be able to purchase guns, and our system needs to better recognize these individuals and disseminate the information to authorities and entities selling firearms. Who and what determines this condition is certainly debatable.BluHorseShu said:We've been down this road so many times. I'd be more interested in a thread about ideas that would more likely mitigate these things and that conservatives can actually champion. We keep going back to "I don't know what the answer is but taking guns away isn't it". I agree....but why are we pushing hard toward other options? And not even just to counter the dems but to show we really want to work to mitigate these events.B-1 83 said:
Will our resident gun control crowd please explain what gun laws would have stopped the more recent mass shootings?
EDIT FROM THE OP: Please be respectful and hear out what potential "solutions" are proposed without going into name calling and attack mode. That's gets threads killed and users banned.
Furthermore, I'll add the concept that juvenile records for violent crimes and violent behavior should be admitted to this same database (I believe this is "Red Flag" whether we call it that, or not). Uvalde showed us this. Can these individuals still buy one off the street? Maybe so, but this is a start, or rather this could certainly be better.
The concept that "too mentally ill/incompetent to buy a gun = lock away in a mental institution" is a non starter for so many mental conditions that are non-violent.
I'll go one further…….the blasted NRA needs to get off its ass and start running ads on "protecting yourself" and "gun safety". The latter should be wrapped around PRACTICE and situational awareness.
The "ban AR-15s and similar platforms)" crowd chimed in with the usual rhetoric that always boils down to "scary looking guns" when any amount of critical thought is applied.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
That's your opinion, and I welcome it. But to label me a lib or nazi because I don't think these weapons should be easily available is silly and short sided. Since we are talking about it, what should I know? I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think starting with limiting the sales of these weapons might curtail some instances. All of them? No. I don't think anyone has a perfect solution, because there isn't one.Quote:
Your opening position on this matter called for "A ban on semi auto rifles and large capacity magazines would be a start"…. There's no way for you to posit this as a solution and expect folks to take you seriously or knowledgeable on this issue.
I never said band AR-15's. I said a ban on semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines would be a start. Stopping or limiting the new sales of these items could help prevent future instances. You heard what you want to hear, and want to dismiss anyone that you don't think knows what they are talking about. I don't think AR's are scary. They are fun to shoot. But they are damn scary when shot by a lunatic in a mall or school because they are perfect for that environment.Quote:
The "ban AR-15s and similar platforms)" crowd chimed in with the usual rhetoric that always boils down to "scary looking guns" when any amount of critical thought is applied.
While I understand the thought behind the bolded statement, if we are comfortable taking away a person's constitutionally protected right to own a gun, we should be willing take away other rights and privileges as well (i.e., driving). Bottom line is the "kid-gloving" of mental illness simply isn't working.B-1 83 said:On the contrary, within this very thread we most certainly have seen an agreement that mentally ill people should not be able to purchase guns, and our system needs to better recognize these individuals and disseminate the information to authorities and entities selling firearms. Who and what determines this condition is certainly debatable.BluHorseShu said:We've been down this road so many times. I'd be more interested in a thread about ideas that would more likely mitigate these things and that conservatives can actually champion. We keep going back to "I don't know what the answer is but taking guns away isn't it". I agree....but why are we pushing hard toward other options? And not even just to counter the dems but to show we really want to work to mitigate these events.B-1 83 said:
Will our resident gun control crowd please explain what gun laws would have stopped the more recent mass shootings?
EDIT FROM THE OP: Please be respectful and hear out what potential "solutions" are proposed without going into name calling and attack mode. That's gets threads killed and users banned.
Furthermore, I'll add the concept that juvenile records for violent crimes and violent behavior should be admitted to this same database (I believe this is "Red Flag" whether we call it that, or not). Uvalde showed us this. Can these individuals still buy one off the street? Maybe so, but this is a start, or rather this could certainly be better.
The concept that "too mentally ill/incompetent to buy a gun = lock away in a mental institution" is a non starter for so many mental conditions that are non-violent.
I'll go one further…….the blasted NRA needs to get off its ass and start running ads on "protecting yourself" and "gun safety". The latter should be wrapped around PRACTICE and situational awareness.
The "ban AR-15s and similar platforms)" crowd chimed in with the usual rhetoric that always boils down to "scary looking guns" when any amount of critical thought is applied.
You really should stop posting.SteveA said:I never said band AR-15's. I said a ban on semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines would be a start. Stopping or limiting the new sales of these items could help prevent future instances. You heard what you want to hear, and want to dismiss anyone that you don't think knows what they are talking about. I don't think AR's are scary. They are fun to shoot. But they are damn scary when shot by a lunatic in a mall or school because they are perfect for that environment.Quote:
The "ban AR-15s and similar platforms)" crowd chimed in with the usual rhetoric that always boils down to "scary looking guns" when any amount of critical thought is applied.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
Quote:
I never said band AR-15's. I said a ban on semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines would be a start.
Just when you think it can't get worse… here comes another post.
What guns under your criteria would need to be banned? Please be specific in giving models and manufacturers as examples.SteveA said:I never said band AR-15's. I said a ban on semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines would be a start. Stopping or limiting the new sales of these items could help prevent future instances. You heard what you want to hear, and want to dismiss anyone that you don't think knows what they are talking about. I don't think AR's are scary. They are fun to shoot. But they are damn scary when shot by a lunatic in a mall or school because they are perfect for that environment.Quote:
The "ban AR-15s and similar platforms)" crowd chimed in with the usual rhetoric that always boils down to "scary looking guns" when any amount of critical thought is applied.
deddog said:What mass shootings would have been stopped by "gun reform"AgsMyDude said:B-1 83 said:Who isn't? The solution is not to disarm the 99.9999999999999999999999999% of the population that is responsible and law abiding.Quote:
I'm tired of innocent children being slaughtered in our country. It's disgusting.
Where did I say that was the solution?
But let me guess you think absolutely nothing needs changed on the gun reform side.
It's easy to say you're fed up with the murdering of children until it's time to even consider making changes
Several....the Nashville shootings for example.
Shooter was under doctor's care for mental disorder and was high functioning autistic.
It's a slippery slope, sure, but there needs to be more done to require these folks not to have firearms, let alone an AR-15.
Why would I need to list models and manufacturers? But I see your point. It gets murky when defining the class of a gun.Quote:
What guns under your criteria would need to be banned? Please be specific in giving models and manufacturers as examples.
SteveA said:That's your opinion, and I welcome it. But to label me a lib or nazi because I don't think these weapons should be easily available is silly and short sided. Since we are talking about it, what should I know? I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think starting with limiting the sales of these weapons might curtail some instances. All of them? No. I don't think anyone has a perfect solution, because there isn't one.Quote:
Your opening position on this matter called for "A ban on semi auto rifles and large capacity magazines would be a start"…. There's no way for you to posit this as a solution and expect folks to take you seriously or knowledgeable on this issue.
Not worth it.
If someone wants to kill a bunch of people and doesn't mind dying in the process, they will achieve their goal one way or another.
Liberty is best. It isn't safe. It isn't free. But it's far preferable to giving it up for the illusion of government provided safety.
Why cant you answer the question? Its a small ask.
If you are going to make this statement,
"I never said band AR-15's. I said a ban on semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines would be a start."
I would like clarification.
If you are going to make this statement,
"I never said band AR-15's. I said a ban on semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines would be a start."
I would like clarification.
To list all of the possible makes and models? Because I don't know them. And that's pretty irrelevant to the conversation. You whole argument is, "they don't no nothing about them guns". And you are probably correct, as I don't subscribe to guns monthly. But I understand the characteristics of the weapons used in this shooting. But again, instead of trying to prove me gun-dumb, which I admit, I can't name all of the calibers and makes, or whatever knowledge makes me cool, provide an argument or educate and tell me why my opinion is wrong.Quote:
Why cant you answer the question? Its a small ask.
SteveA said:To list all of the possible makes and models? Because I don't know them. And that's pretty irrelevant to the conversation. You whole argument is, "they don't no nothing about them guns". And you are probably correct, as I don't subscribe to guns monthly. But I understand the characteristics of the weapons used in this shooting. But again, instead of trying to prove me gun-dumb, which I admit, I can't name all of the calibers and makes, or whatever knowledge makes me cool, provide an argument or educate and tell me why my opinion is wrong.Quote:
Why cant you answer the question? Its a small ask.
Then you should understand why you are contradicting yourself in your previous posts.
No one here is trying to prove you are gun dumb, you have that 100% covered by yourself…
Slicer97 said:SteveA said:That's your opinion, and I welcome it. But to label me a lib or nazi because I don't think these weapons should be easily available is silly and short sided. Since we are talking about it, what should I know? I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think starting with limiting the sales of these weapons might curtail some instances. All of them? No. I don't think anyone has a perfect solution, because there isn't one.Quote:
Your opening position on this matter called for "A ban on semi auto rifles and large capacity magazines would be a start"…. There's no way for you to posit this as a solution and expect folks to take you seriously or knowledgeable on this issue.
Not worth it.
If someone wants to kill a bunch of people and doesn't mind dying in the process, they will achieve their goal one way or another.
Liberty is best. It isn't safe. It isn't free. But it's far preferable to giving it up for the illusion of government provided safety.
Will it stop all? No. But it will stop some.
Uvalde shooter bought 2 AR15s the day after his 18th birthday and shot up the school 3 days later.
Maybe a longer process or a limit to the number of ARs an 18 year old can buy over a week, etc. helps a situation like that one.
No.
Why isn't the shooter in an institution?AgsMyDude said:deddog said:What mass shootings would have been stopped by "gun reform"AgsMyDude said:B-1 83 said:Who isn't? The solution is not to disarm the 99.9999999999999999999999999% of the population that is responsible and law abiding.Quote:
I'm tired of innocent children being slaughtered in our country. It's disgusting.
Where did I say that was the solution?
But let me guess you think absolutely nothing needs changed on the gun reform side.
It's easy to say you're fed up with the murdering of children until it's time to even consider making changes
Several....the Nashville shootings for example.
Shooter was under doctor's care for mental disorder and was high functioning autistic.
It's a slippery slope, sure, but there needs to be more done to require these folks not to have firearms, let alone an AR-15.
If you are dangerous enough to Not own a gun, you are dangerous enough to be not allowed in public.
I am ok with folks who are committed in mental institutions not being able to own guns, until they are discharged.
No it doesn'tAgsMyDude said:Slicer97 said:SteveA said:That's your opinion, and I welcome it. But to label me a lib or nazi because I don't think these weapons should be easily available is silly and short sided. Since we are talking about it, what should I know? I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think starting with limiting the sales of these weapons might curtail some instances. All of them? No. I don't think anyone has a perfect solution, because there isn't one.Quote:
Your opening position on this matter called for "A ban on semi auto rifles and large capacity magazines would be a start"…. There's no way for you to posit this as a solution and expect folks to take you seriously or knowledgeable on this issue.
Not worth it.
If someone wants to kill a bunch of people and doesn't mind dying in the process, they will achieve their goal one way or another.
Liberty is best. It isn't safe. It isn't free. But it's far preferable to giving it up for the illusion of government provided safety.
Will it stop all? No. But it will stop some.
Uvalde shooter bought 2 AR15s the day after his 18th birthday and shot up the school 3 days later.
Maybe a longer process or a limit to the number of ARs an 18 year old can buy over a week, etc. helps a situation like that one.
Most mass shootings are planned. Obsessively often over months and years.
What it does do is prevent legit people from buying a weapon.
18 year old boyfriend beats up his 18 year girl and threatens to kill her.
Wait 3 days please.
The magazine size is even more stupid. Shooters who plan usually have multiple weapons, i can't remember the last time a mass shooter had only one weapon on them..
Again the main folks this hurts are legit gun owners, who are restricted to arbitrarily have a certain number of rounds that the bad guys don't have to adhere to.
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/02/1095489487/trigger-points-mark-follman-how-to-stop-mass-shootings
Quote:
What's more, Follman says, the role of mental health is also widely misunderstood: "The general public views mass shooters as people who are totally crazy, insane. It fits with the idea of snapping, as if these people are totally detached from reality."
[In actuality, Follman says, there's "a very rational thought process" that goes into planning and carrying out mass shootings.
As I recall, in that case, his juvenile record was hidden. Had it been used in the database, he'd not been able to purchase the weapons in the manner he did. Time for that to be changed.AgsMyDude said:Slicer97 said:SteveA said:That's your opinion, and I welcome it. But to label me a lib or nazi because I don't think these weapons should be easily available is silly and short sided. Since we are talking about it, what should I know? I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think starting with limiting the sales of these weapons might curtail some instances. All of them? No. I don't think anyone has a perfect solution, because there isn't one.Quote:
Your opening position on this matter called for "A ban on semi auto rifles and large capacity magazines would be a start"…. There's no way for you to posit this as a solution and expect folks to take you seriously or knowledgeable on this issue.
Not worth it.
If someone wants to kill a bunch of people and doesn't mind dying in the process, they will achieve their goal one way or another.
Liberty is best. It isn't safe. It isn't free. But it's far preferable to giving it up for the illusion of government provided safety.
Will it stop all? No. But it will stop some.
Uvalde shooter bought 2 AR15s the day after his 18th birthday and shot up the school 3 days later.
Maybe a longer process or a limit to the number of ARs an 18 year old can buy over a week, etc. helps a situation like that one.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
This I would agree with as it makes use of due process.B-1 83 said:AgsMyDude said:Slicer97 said:SteveA said:Quote:
As I recall, in that case, his juvenile record was hidden. Had it been used in the database, he'd not been able to purchase the weapons. Time for that to be changed.
First, having read the entire thread, you are obfuscating the word "Regulated". Regulated, in old English terms, didn't mean regulations, it meant well supplied or well maintained and is obvious in the context of the 2nd as relating to what it takes to quickly form a militia. Right after "well regulated militia", what does it say? "Being necessary for a free state", what was the state's trying to stay free from? The 2nd defines how it was to be maintained or regulated, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". You have not, from all I've read from you, been able to reconcile the connection between those two important aspects of the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment was written one, too assure us of our 1st Amendment rights and protect the population from a tyrannical government, both foreign or domestic. We are currently seeing why this is so important and should be a wake up call to all about the importance of the 2nd amendment. Thomas Jefferson, in reflecting on the importance of the 2nd had the famous quote "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" Very powerful and scary at the same time. It reflects the struggle to maintain your freedoms and the perils in doing so. We, as a society and a civilization under our constitution, should be able to arm ourselves with similar weapons that any soldier of the government would carry. We have already allowed our rights to be infringed enough and should absolutely fight any further infringement. Those who think that our current government, especially the left, doesn't have nefarious intents with striping you of this right, will be the first to be lined up when they finally realize their utopia isn't achievable. The 2nd Amendment was meant to be our checks and balances over a tyrannical government, personal protection is simply a by product of that and never the intent.SteveA said:That's your opinion, and I welcome it. But to label me a lib or nazi because I don't think these weapons should be easily available is silly and short sided. Since we are talking about it, what should I know? I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think starting with limiting the sales of these weapons might curtail some instances. All of them? No. I don't think anyone has a perfect solution, because there isn't one.Quote:
Your opening position on this matter called for "A ban on semi auto rifles and large capacity magazines would be a start"…. There's no way for you to posit this as a solution and expect folks to take you seriously or knowledgeable on this issue.
We have become an immoral society and that is the first, second and last problem we are seeing today, not the guns.
"Then you should understand why you are contradicting yourself in your previous posts.
"
What is the contradiction? Not trying to be adversarial. Tell me what I have wrong.
"
What is the contradiction? Not trying to be adversarial. Tell me what I have wrong.
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