Martin Cash said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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The kids are the innocent ones.

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The kids were most definitely innocent. I am still trying to figure out what warranted the government slaughtering everyone, which they willfully did.

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Do you honestly believe the government murder the Davidians? If you do , I pity you.

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Yes. The government had many opportunities to not have that end the way they did. Instead, they literally fueled the fire and killed all of those people.

TxTarpon said:

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If you listened to the Michael Berry show today, you would have heard why.
The FBI had two camps. One wanted to negotiate. One wanted to move in and crush.
Guess which one won?

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I have never listened to the Michael Berry show.

I watched the fiasco unfold in basically real time. I was watching on TV as the feds burned the compound down.

Did the people who perpetrated this (**edited for clarification** this = OKC bombing) see the Davidians as "heroes"? Or did they recognize that they were American citizens whose rights were trampled all over by the government and who ended up dead as a result?

How were the feds supposed to know that tear gas is flammable?

ballchain said:

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Ag Natural said:

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How were the feds supposed to know that tear gas is flammable?

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They "lost" documents showing they sent pyrotechnic rounds into the building until many years later. Like a lot of the original investigation, the ATF/FBI lost evidence that showed them in a bad light.

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And yet we watched it happen on live TV that day.

What Koresh was doing to kids was indefensible. What the feds did to the Davidians was indefensible.

That said, abolish the ATF.

Feds invented the term "conspiracy theorist," so pretty par for the course

TxTarpon said:

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The kids were most definitely innocent. I am still trying to figure out what warranted the government slaughtering everyone, which they willfully did.

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If you listened to the Michael Berry show today, you would have heard why.
The FBI had two camps. One wanted to negotiate. One wanted to move in and crush.
Guess which one won?

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I listened to the interview Berry did this morning w/ Dick DeGuerin. The thing I thought most interesting DeGuerin said was that he interviewed the survivors the day the compound burned down. He said everyone was either in jail or in the hospital. He also said everyone of the survivors said they didn't start the fire.

I watched both the recent doc and the one that came out in 2018. Both indicated the rift between FBI negotiators and FBI HRT. IIRC, the 2018 doc extensively interviewed the FBI head negotiator and he was very critical of HRT.

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Nobody on here has called Koresh a hero.

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Goaltending for guy who wanted the govt to kill him so he could be a martyr..
Good job!

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Koresh was a pathetic POS and the world is better off without him. If Clinton and Reno hadn't been so insistent on showing how big their d*cks were, they could have arrested him multiple times and there is a good chance that none of this would have happened.

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And at any time, Koresh could have let the children leave.
He did not. He kept them here. He, and perhaps a few other adults in there, knew they were a death cult and going to die. Just like Jim Jones, he wanted more people to die with him.

Me too

ballchain said:

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If you watch that documentary, you can plainly hear how the negotiators were being sabotaged by the HRT goons. Then they sent the FBI negotiators packing and the FBI started psyops and escalated to the demise of children.

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Yep
Who was the general that volunteered military aircraft to strafe the compound?

Ellis Wyatt said:

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TxTarpon said:

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If you listened to the Michael Berry show today, you would have heard why.
The FBI had two camps. One wanted to negotiate. One wanted to move in and crush.
Guess which one won?

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I have never listened to the Michael Berry show.

I watched the fiasco unfold in basically real time. I was watching on TV as the feds burned the compound down.

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Why do you persist with the lies? It adds nothing to the discussion. Koresh burned the compound down. That is undisputed fact. Please grow up.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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Nobody on here has called Koresh a hero.

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Goaltending for guy who wanted the govt to kill him so he could be a martyr..
Good job!

Quote:

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Koresh was a pathetic POS and the world is better off without him. If Clinton and Reno hadn't been so insistent on showing how big their d*cks were, they could have arrested him multiple times and there is a good chance that none of this would have happened.

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And at any time, Koresh could have let the children leave.
He did not. He kept them here. He, and perhaps a few other adults in there, knew they were a death cult and going to die. Just like Jim Jones, he wanted more people to die with him.

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You're delusional now…nobody on this forum is goaltending and supporting what Koresh did.

Every post I've read is in agreement that Koresh is a POS, even yours. You seem to be the main one here though that is not willing to admit any fault by the ATF & FBI.

You're just making **** up now so you can keep your argument alive. You're either a troll or just not very smart.

combat wombat said:

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Did the people who perpetrated this (**edited for clarification** this = OKC bombing) see the Davidians as "heroes"?

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Who enacts revenge for anything less?

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Or did they recognize that they were American citizens whose rights were trampled all over by the government and who ended up dead as a result?

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Why not both?

My friend and good man went to the ATF and died a villain.

Those people may have been messed up in the head, but iirc they made their own choices.

Koresh was no hero and a messed up guy but people have the right to vclose to live how they want.

I recall a bunch of government bs about how they didn't start the fire but it is undisputed that they set conditions for the fire if not were the sole cause.

I know all about the raid and Steve. I was so disgusted I didn't follow the subsequent murders as closely.

Either way, government pure evil os the only villain in this story.

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Why do you persist with the lies? It adds nothing to the discussion. Koresh burned the compound down. That is undisputed fact. Please grow up.

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What lies?

The government initiated the raid. The government surrounded the compound. The government was the one poking holes in the compound with military vehicles. The government was using incendiary devices. They could have not persisted in any one of those phases, but chose to anyway. We all knew it would end horrifically. We just didn't think the government would kill all those people.

*And I am not anti-government by any means, but I will call a spade a spade. Our government has only become less accountable and more nefarious over time.

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He could have… yes. But, as everyone knows, the dude was a nut job and so were his followers. They BELIEVED this was some kind of end time apocalypse. There was no leaving. It was a last stand for mentally ill devotees.

The gov, with its limitless powers and capabilities, ignored this. It's like trying to convince a ****** that they are mental. You won't.

Instead of dealing with it like you would a mental patient, they pulled a Nord-Ost.

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Or a Porter Burks.

How about this:
Tragedy in Waco: kids died because the govt brutally crushed, without due process, an armed death cult whose pedo leader wanted many to die with him.

One thing this led to was the longest standoff in Texas history between Texas LEOs and John Joe Gray.

Martin Cash said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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TxTarpon said:

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If you listened to the Michael Berry show today, you would have heard why.
The FBI had two camps. One wanted to negotiate. One wanted to move in and crush.
Guess which one won?

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I have never listened to the Michael Berry show.

I watched the fiasco unfold in basically real time. I was watching on TV as the feds burned the compound down.

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Why do you persist with the lies? It adds nothing to the discussion. Koresh burned the compound down. That is undisputed fact. Please grow up.

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Uhhh. No--no it isn't.

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You seem to be the main one here though that is not willing to admit any fault by the ATF & FBI.

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I will post it again:
Tragedy in Waco: kids died because the govt brutally crushed, without due process, an armed death cult whose pedo leader wanted many to die with him.

The FBI HRT sucks.
They don't care who they kill.
Read Kessler's book.

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You're just making **** up now so you can keep your argument alive. You're either a troll or just not very smart.

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I know Koresh wanted it to look like he was a martyr against the govt instead of surrendering and being outed as the pedo false profit he was, many not very smart people buy into that. You bought that lie, enjoy your bliss.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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You seem to be the main one here though that is not willing to admit any fault by the ATF & FBI.

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I will post it again:
Tragedy in Waco: kids died because the govt brutally crushed, without due process, an armed death cult whose pedo leader wanted many to die with him.

The FBI HRT sucks.
They don't care who they kill.
Read Kessler's book.

Quote:

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You're just making **** up now so you can keep your argument alive. You're either a troll or just not very smart.

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I know Koresh wanted it to look like he was a martyr against the govt instead of surrendering and being outed as the pedo false profit he was, many not very smart people buy into that. You bought that lie, enjoy your bliss.

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Yeah, I'm the one showing my ignorance….

fka ftc said:

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They had a horde of illegal weapons and were gathering more at an alarming rate. They expected the feds to come calling again.

Add in reports (since verified by those who were inside) of rampant child abuse and sexual exploitation and I believe the Feds had a right to inspect the property and investigate.

That said, every decision they made about when, how and where to perform that operations were fantastically stupid and costs lives.

No excuses for a pedophile loon who set fire to his own followers.

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This was also never proven, only alleged.

Anybody that watches the docuseries on it that thinks that the FBI wasn't out to put bullets in people after hearing the HRT guys talk is absolutely ignorant.

Will not defend the Feds' on this:
1. Could have taken DC in custody while he was in Waco. Did not!
2. Could have place road blocks at routes to the compound and starved them out. Did not!!
3. Could have sent 1 or 2 officers with Search Warrant at the beginning...instead of showing up with 55 armed officers...with guns drawn. Did not!!!

Not a DC fan. He was a mentally ill, sex offender...but, until the Feds showed up, he was not a murderer or (to my knowledge) had not "convincingly" threatened anyone. If left alone, kind of doubt he or anyone at the cpd. would have physically harmed anyone. IMHO - Fed "over reach" and an utterly stupid demo of govt. power.

Reno, Bimbo Clinton the ATF and FBI agents in charge should have been impeached and or fired, if not legally prosecuted.
ETA - Used to believe otherwise...NOT ANYMORE. These agencies no longer have my confidence or respect.

schmellba99 said:

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fka ftc said:

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Unfortunately I could see a false flag op this week.

Blaming the FBI and ATF on those deaths is not correct, though they contributed to an environment of chaos, stress, pressure, etc knowing they had a powder keg of crazy man / people, anti-gov fanatics, weapons, explosives, etc.

They deserve all of the blame for escalating the situation and setting the circumstances up. But the decision to light those fires remains with Koresh.

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The only people that make this claim....are the FBI and ATF.

They are 100% responsible for all of the deaths because they chose to handle what should have been - and could have been - a very simple detainment of Koresh in the absolute worst possible manner and then proceeded to effectively siege the place for nearly 60 days for no other reason than "because we can".

Including getting a freaking M1 Abrams from Ft. Hood and deciding to play demolition derby to a building that they KNEW housed nearly 100 people, many of whom were women and children.

This was absolutely without a doubt 100% the fault of the feds, any argument otherwise is dumb.

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When you stockpile fully automatic weapons and grenades along with credible allegations of child abuse does not make David Koresh a martyr.

BTW - Koresh had an absolute death wish and was waiting for a moment to take his flock with him to paradise. He was of such sound mind that he preached on this regularly, and even drilled for a raid.

Yes, ATF, FBI, media, Reno, Clinton all deserve heavy blame. But the idea that nothing would have happened if not for the raid is simply not accurate.