Rapier108 said:

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Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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Telling us you don't know what real work is, or what many of these jobs pay, without coming out and saying it.

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I was going to read through the entire thread, but this is what I basically planned to say.

Most progressives have zero clue what hard work is, how to do it, or what a blue collar profession pays.

Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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When was the last time you had your AC fixed?
When was the last time you hired a plumber or electrician?

These guys aren't billing labor at minimum wage.

American Hardwood said:

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Stigmatizing labor and telling everyone they are going to be poor and have a ****ty life is wrong and has been a huge factor in creating this problem. I don';t know any conservative businessman that thinks that importing cheap labor is the answer. The businessmen in manufacturing that I know want skilled, dependable labor and would happily employ skilled US citizens and pay them well, but finding those people is hard, in part, because otherwise good young candidates have been convinced that they have to go to college and get law degrees or their life will suck.

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The border is open because cheap labor is needed (in addition to the government profiting off the drug trade). To pretend otherwise is silly. And don't get me started on H1B visas.

I'm in my 30's and truly believe that anything anyone else can do, I can do as well if not better. I am extremely handy, have the ability to teach myself stuff I don't know, and have a knack for figuring things out when they don't go exactly as planned.

Also, me taking down Christmas lights:

Let it all burn. They'll probably blame that on us too.

Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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you are showing your ignorance - most manufacturing jobs pay much more than liberal arts jobs - and don't come with a $100k+ debt. The problem isn't working at poverty level pay- the problem is very few want to do physical labor to earn more than a fair wage. The operators at my paper mill are knocking back $50k in their first year and it goes up quickly from there. Throw in the shortage of college degreed folks who are willing to work production management jobs and the opportunities are unlimited for a motivated hourly worker. We only had one degreed manager at the department level management and this is the same across all paper mills across US.

Given the crap being spewed at the college level - I would not send my kids to college now unless they pursued a engineering level degree. Trade school is the ticket to good living now with a two year window to earning versus 4+ at the college level.

MemphisAg1 said:

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Borderline boomer/GenX here. Agree that pain is ahead, but it's not because of boomer's retiring. There are plenty of qualified people in the younger generations.

But the media-driven obsession with Diversity and Inclusion excludes a lot of qualified people (white men) and forces hiring of less qualified people.

To be very clear, there are absolutely well-qualified women and minorities. Some of them are best in class. There's just not enough of them to go around, so standards get lowered to bring in enough people that meet the D&I quotas.

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This.

As a hiring manager at a Fortune 500, you woundnt believe the amount of attention and pressure we get from HR about this. For the most part we can work around it, but I've been recently told that quotas are coming.

Of course, all DEI references were left off the last company survey. Last year's survey results were not supportive of the DEI agenda.

The Lord brings his judgement!

May the hard times bring Godly men again.

Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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My ranch foreman's sons are both electricians with two year degrees and make nice six figures on 4 day work weeks. THey will never be unemployed.

Your post fails.

American Hardwood said:

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Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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That attitude right there is why we have a problem.

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It's the attitude of a dumbass lib completely detached from reality

Teslag said:

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Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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Most illegals doing hard construction labor live above poverty. In fact many do quite well.

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Semi-skilled, sure.

Illegals aren't Project Managers, Construction Inspectors or Heavy Equipment Operators.

Yep. 40yo white male with BS and MS. I have been applying to various internal roles and have gotten the feeling that they will exhaust all diversity applicants before even giving me a look, when I am more than qualified for the roles. Its sickening really.

Anyone else grow up holding the flashlight or fetching tools for their dad as they wrenched on the family car/truck? That happens very rarely now. One, people don't know how to do it and two, the cars are more tech driven than mechanically driven now. This creates younger generations that don't think or wonder how everything fits together and work so that the item runs.

The same thing happens in companies or countries that lose the expertise they have always had and now take for granted. No one knows how the logistics/mechanics of everything works because they take it for granted.

Look at the Artemis project at NASA. They had to start from scratch because all the people who knew how to do the Saturn V have been retired for so long and the corporate knowledge was lost.

Good lord, what a bleak, nihilistic world view.

I do agree with the premise of your post, but I disagree with the doom and gloom, "we are screwed and there's nothing we can do about it."

Gotta hold onto hope that the pendulum swings back eventually.

It's going to be like the late 70's. High inflation, high interest, social issues in an echo chamber, and cars that always need fixing. The biggest problem will be not everyone has the high tech equipment to fix todays cars.

Lol-thinking you can keep older guys around for training for a year and fix this.

Competence is a way of life, a lifestyle, a personality trait, a mindset built over a lifetime. It is who you are.

That has been destroyed systemically

The only people who have it anymore got it by being isolated from mainstream education and attitudes and instilled by their personal family/friends.

Teaching incompetent people for a year might get them to be able to monkey the trained tasks when it suits their attitudes. It does not form competent replacement employees.

The stunning thing about boomers is how they let crooks rise to the top of everything and the competent ones just kept their nose down working

And that exactly the right attitude, because trying is Joe you learn. I've been doing it for 3 decades and there isn't a month goes by that I don't tear into something I don't have experience with.

My dad still buys old, rare cars or motorcycles or small engines - and the first thing he does is take them apart. In his words, that's how you find out what you've got.

HollywoodBQ said:

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Teslag said:

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Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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Most illegals doing hard construction labor live above poverty. In fact many do quite well.

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Semi-skilled, sure.

Illegals aren't Project Managers, Construction Inspectors or Heavy Equipment Operators.

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They are most definitely heavy equipment operators

Sometimes I think I would have done better in trades. I have the right aptitude for it. I live working with my hands and building things, learning how they work, and fixing them, but I also like creating new solutions and solving problems. Oddly enough, if I had done the trade route, I would almost certainly be making more than I am now, but I don't have the financial independence yet to switch careers, because there is that apprenticeship window where you don't make much but have to work pretty damn hard to get through, and that's hard to do on a career change without preparation.

BenFiasco14 said:

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Good lord, what a bleak, nihilistic world view.

I do agree with the premise of your post, but I disagree with the doom and gloom, "we are screwed and there's nothing we can do about it."

Gotta hold onto hope that the pendulum swings back eventually.

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It's not nihilistic or bleak if it's true. This is where we are now. It will continue to get worse.

Quote:

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They were the ones in charge from the 70s until very recently,

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LOL, why was one generation (defined as approx 20 year cohort) "in charge" for 40+ years? Hint: We weren't.

First boomer POTUS was in 92, and he was young, and preceded by a WWII generation.

AgBQ-00 said:

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Anyone else grow up holding the flashlight or fetching tools for their dad as they wrenched on the family car/truck? That happens very rarely now. One, people don't know how to do it and two, the cars are more tech driven than mechanically driven now. This creates younger generations that don't think or wonder how everything fits together and work so that the item runs.

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Argh. I did this. I'm pretty damned handy with tools and fixing things. Hell, my senior design project was designing and building a race car. But, without the proper diagnostic tool, it's nearly impossible to figure out what is wrong with your vehicle. The good diagnostic tools cost the shade tree mechanic too much money to be worth it. Then, on top of that, it seems there's always a specialty tool needed to take off that one fitting. Sometimes you can rent, sometimes not. Then, on top of it all. everything has been packaged in a way to forced you into the dealership or mechanics shop as you have to take apart half the car just to get to something.

Just in the last two months I've had to make decisions on time vs. money for fixing items on my truck. One of them I did, one of them I could have done, and saved a few hundred, but the time factor in doing the job would have cost me just as much. It really sucked. I hated paying for it.

/End Rant

Bird Poo said:

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MemphisAg1 said:

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Borderline boomer/GenX here. Agree that pain is ahead, but it's not because of boomer's retiring. There are plenty of qualified people in the younger generations.

But the media-driven obsession with Diversity and Inclusion excludes a lot of qualified people (white men) and forces hiring of less qualified people.

To be very clear, there are absolutely well-qualified women and minorities. Some of them are best in class. There's just not enough of them to go around, so standards get lowered to bring in enough people that meet the D&I quotas.

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This.

As a hiring manager at a Fortune 500, you woundnt believe the amount of attention and pressure we get from HR about this. For the most part we can work around it, but I've been recently told that quotas are coming.

Of course, all DEI references were left off the last company survey. Last year's survey results were not supportive of the DEI agenda.

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Working for a start-up who is trying to mimic F500 behaviour is entertaining.

Two years ago, they wanted me to post very detailed job descriptions which covered the actual work we were going to ask people to perform.

Example - put server in rack, run network cables to switch, in a remote co-location data centre, etc.
40% travel

Now they want my job description to be as generic and vague as possible.

Example - ability to lift 50 lbs.
Availability to travel

The first job description would scare many people off (which is a good thing). The second description is so inclusive that a homeless guy of the street would qualify.

I'm still fighting HR on this watering down of job descriptions.

MouthBQ98 said:

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Sometimes I think I would have done better in trades. I have the right aptitude for it. I live working with my hands and building things, learning how they work, and fixing them, but I also like creating new solutions and solving problems. Oddly enough, if I had done the trade route, I would almost certainly be making more than I am now, but I don't have the financial independence yet to switch carriers, because there is that apprenticeship window where you don't make much but have to work pretty damn hard to get through, and that's hard to do on a career change without preparation.

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Which is a great description of why I can't find people who know how to do the type of computer programming that I need for automation and reporting.

Because nobody wants to take the time to #learntocode

I don't think this shortage in transportation workers will be that big of an issue…

because our administration is currently sabotaging our energy independence by imposing so many restrictions on carbon emissions that we'll be forced into "green" technologies we don't have near the infrastructure to support.

Nanomachines son said:

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Pookers said:

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Not to worry, the hordes of 3rd worlders flooding across the boarder will stand in the gap and carry civilization for us.

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Import the 3rd world get the 3rd world!

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Immigrants made up almost one-fourth, or 23.1 percent, of all STEM workers in the United States in 2019. A vast majority of these immigrants were born in 3rd world countries (India, Vietnam, and Mexico).

FrioAg 00 said:

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This hits home in my life.

I'm way handier than 80-90% of my generation when it comes to mechanical, materials handling, electric, etc.

But I'd be in the bottom quarter of the boomers. My 72 year old Dad still had to come help me with the really complicated projects I take on - I am constantly impressed with chit he just knows.

And I'm not going to start on the average 30 year old. We have done them a huge injustice.

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Your 72 year old dad has had a lot more time to learn things, so it stands to reason that he SHOULD know more than you about quite a bit. Same thing for the average 30 year old not knowing things. They simply haven't been around long.

Space-Tech said:

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Or, and I know this is crazy, maybe pay blue collar workers more?

Labor shortages only exist because the pay sucks. Who wants a life doing hard/technical work only to live in poverty?

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Skilled labor makes more than ever and has more opportunities than ever. You have a lot better long term job prospects as a Master Electrician or Master Mechanic than someone with a Master's Degree and that is only accelerating.

Part of the problem started with Gen X being pushed down by the Boomers and poor decisions by the government. For instance I was Class of 93 and in the AF part of the Corps. Most of my buddies all wanted to be pilots. As the Cold War was ending though they went from 23 Pilot Slots for A&M to 2 in 1 year. I was going to take a contract but they were cutting like crazy and told me I would have to wait a year after graduation (which was also going to be delayed because of extra classes) and the prospects of the type of job I would end up in weren't good so I decided not to. Most of the fields we now have shortages in were loaded with Boomers and it was very hard to break in as the salaries were low and they had so many experienced people so they had no desire to invest in training you. Everything encouraged you to go to college or maybe get into IT if you didn't.

College was less expensive as well because it was before the Feds started handing out student loans like candy and Dorms weren't palaces and our Rec Center was DeWare which was basically a bunch of weights in a sweaty basement looking gym. My full bill with tuition, room, board, sports pass, and fees was $2700. Of course A&M also was a lot harsher then, around 40% graduated in 4 years and less than 60% graduated at all (now it is over 70% in 4 and approaching 90% in 6).

Once we graduated the job market was tough because once again you had so many experienced Boomers and companies didn't need to hire entry level. Had to scratch and claw for everything. Now of course that bill has come due. FWIW I have made sure both of my boys have skills outside of academics and understand how to make and build things.

I'm also seeing the DEI and brain drain around me.

EVERY new hire into the group I'm currently working has been a diversity hire. One is excelling, one is average, two are below average. The two below average are intelligent, but they simply do not grasp the writing style necessary, nor have the experience to truly understand this job.

On the other hand, I've been trying to promote within my company for about a year. The people running the show are so narrow minded. I literally see them all looking for unicorns in interviews and see the change in their body language when a question is not answered perfectly as they expect. They make poor decisions, mostly only in short term thinking to make their bonus, but the overall business suffers due to lack of leadership. I could run circles around them, and more than one person has speculated that is why I'm not getting into the positions.

So, instead of promoting the best within our company, we are only promoting, or bringing in from the outside, "yes people" who bring zero new ideas, will not rock the boat, will not challenge the system, and continue to kick the can down the road. Meanwhile, the business suffers as we don't win work because some dumbass boss thousands of miles away who has never even worked in the area demands a gross margin that no business in the area can support.

I'm looking forward to the day I leave this place with a new job. Somehow just need to keep my feelings in check long enough to not get fired.

Hullabaloonatic said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Pookers said:

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Not to worry, the hordes of 3rd worlders flooding across the boarder will stand in the gap and carry civilization for us.

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Import the 3rd world get the 3rd world!

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Immigrants made up almost one-fourth, or 23.1 percent, of all STEM workers in the United States in 2019. A vast majority of these immigrants were born in 3rd world countries (India, Vietnam, and Mexico).

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Your point? H1B visas are a scam for the US citizen.

Quote:

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Colonial Pipeline's CEO testified to Congress that the reason they couldn't just manually operate the pipelines during the hack is that all the guys who knew how to do it had retired.

We're already at the "We forgot who built the aqueducts" stage of Roman decline, lol.

— Stoi (@stoiciticus) April 12, 2023

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Sounds like a training issue that has many solutions, like a lot of the doom and gloom projected in this thread.

The assumption that only boomers (and in some suggestions on this thread, white boomers), are the only ones that know and can learn how to do anything seems like a boomer superiority complex rather than a reality.

Mechanical mindedness does not come naturally. I have a kid that can barely set up a ladder without screwing it up.

Nanomachines son said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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If the future is bleak then I'd want to know why the Boomers failed to keep it from getting that way. They were the ones in charge from the 70s until very recently, so things that occurred in every aspect of our lives, they were the ones making the decisions. Hell, they're still alive and at least in congress and the white house (current and former), still making the decisions.

So again, where did they fail? Was it with how they raised their offspring? Did they balls selfish decisions without thinking how it would affect future generations? Were they too stupid to know what they were doing would put us on this situations? Being the biggest and most influential generation in the past century means you're also the most responsible and accountable.

We hold parents to account when their kids go astray. That should be no different when it comes to the Boomers and things like this.

No, they're not responsible for everything, but again, they were in charge for longer than anyone else, and they're still holding on.

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They failed by telling their kids degrees in worthless **** was okay and not passing down their experience and knowledge to their own kids.

Far too many kids avoided their parents professions like the plague because of what their parents told them. Now we have massive Brain drain everywhere and no one is left to carry the water.

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My dad told me not to become a Civil Engineer because from his point of view, all the frontiers had been conquered. We'd already built the Trans-Alaska Pipeline, Golden Gate Bridge, Hoover Dam, the Houston Astrodome. What was left unless we're going to colonize the moon?

My dad finished his 50 year long construction career building prisons and schools.

Of course that's partly his choosing because he wanted to live in Waco rather than go back to the Middle East.

I've done well professionally but, I missed out on being in the middle of the Middle Eastern construction boom because my dad did not encourage me to follow in his footsteps.

No Spin Ag said:

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If the future is bleak then I'd want to know why the Boomers failed to keep it from getting that way. They were the ones in charge from the 70s until very recently, so things that occurred in every aspect of our lives, they were the ones making the decisions. Hell, they're still alive and at least in congress and the white house (current and former), still making the decisions.

So again, where did they fail? Was it with how they raised their offspring? Did they balls selfish decisions without thinking how it would affect future generations? Were they too stupid to know what they were doing would put us on this situations? Being the biggest and most influential generation in the past century means you're also the most responsible and accountable.

We hold parents to account when their kids go astray. That should be no different when it comes to the Boomers and things like this.

No, they're not responsible for everything, but again, they were in charge for longer than anyone else, and they're still holding on.

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lol, you think Boomers have been in charge since the '70s? That's absurd. The oldest Boomers didn't even get to vote until 1967. The youngest Boomers didn't start voting until 1982. A bunch of 20 somethings weren't driving policy in the '70's. People 55+ have the majority of the money and vote far more consistently than younger generations. That has generally been true for a long time. That's where the power is.

It's also not a Boomer in the White House. Nancy Pelosi isn't a Boomer. Mitch McConnell isn't a Boomer. Only Schumer and McCarthy are Boomers. Non-boomers have far exceeded Boomers at the leadership positions in Congress. There were no Boomers in leadership positions in the '70s or '80's. Boehner was the first Boomer Speaker of the House. Tom Daschle was the first Boomer Senate Majority Leader.

Social Security was started before Boomers were born. LBJ's Great Society was enacted before ANY Boomer could vote. Boomer's recognized Social Security was doomed to fail in the '80's, but it was already the third rail of politics. That wasn't because of Boomers.

DTP02 said:

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I don't think this shortage in transportation workers will be that big of an issue…

because our administration is currently sabotaging our energy independence by imposing so many restrictions on carbon emissions that we'll be forced into "green" technologies we don't have near the infrastructure to support.

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That's a very narrow viewpoint.

This supply chain issue is global, not just the US. We see it in our business as well. Problem is, the old guard bosses don't understand why nobody can get X piece of equipment, y valve, or z instrument in the same number of weeks they could just 10 years ago. Both internal and external clients refuse to believe, understand, or dive into the whys.