9/11 Pentagon Attack Question

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The Fife
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In reply to GAC06 • 7:24a, 12/21/22
GAC06 said:
AggiEE said:
Yes, that's what we've been told happened. Doesn't make it so.

Where's the big engine damage? Why did the inner portion of the pentagon get so deeply penetrated by one of the relatively lightest parts of the aircraft? Why are eyewitness reports not consistent? Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots? Why isn't there more discernible wreckage? Why won't they release all the camera footage?


Literally every one of those has been addressed in this thread, and you've been clubbed with facts. You've crawfished full circle back to the beginning. There's a reason 9/11 truthers are so widely regarded as morons.
Guapo here really seems to be looking for some kind of airplane-shaped hole (with engine holes too dammit!) like it's Wile-e-Coyote hitting a wall on a Roadrunner cartoon. Ignoring reality and pretending that only those two components can be traced back to that plane, even if he was presented with the part and serial number for every disc, blade, and whatever else it wouldn't work because now we want American's MX records for how the engine assemblies were installed on the plane

Providing that wouldn't be good enough because how'd those parts get on that S/N engine??? Give him Rolls' paper build records and he'd either point out where it looks like QA forgot to date a stamp halfway through and claim the whole thing invalid, or just say "well that's all fake anyway."
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The Kraken
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In reply to AggiEE • 7:57a, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
The amount of people that willingly knew would not need to be as high as claimed. These ops are highly compartmentalized and can be conducted under benign orders collectively being orchestrated by those actually in the know at the top chain of command.


This was discussed in the previous thread. Even if you were able to compartmentalize with benign orders, once the results occurred everyone would realize what happened and people would talk, accusations would fly and hell would be paid. That's another reason why the such a deep conspiracy like the one truthers insist happen fails every test of reasoning.

Truthers view the government as this evil entity full of evil people with a singular goal of appealing the elite and the military industrial complex. The reality is that the government is composed of people just like me, you and our families and friends. My brother who is an Army O-6. One of my outfit buddies from A&M who is an AF O-8 and an upperclassman who is a Marine O-10. Friends who are FBI agents or work for other alphabet agencies.

Who do you know on this board or among your friends would go along with a plan to kill thousands of Americans in arguably the most shocking event to occur in American history? Zero, I'm sure. Yet somehow we had politicians (both R and D), military leaders, FBI, CIA, FAA, etc, all agree this plan's objectives were good, sound, would work without a hitch and would not be found out by whistleblowers (normal people) either before or after. They have to believe they could recruit people to do the dirty grunt work without anyone getting suspicious. They have to believe that those who operated under benign orders wouldn't put two and two together and realize what they did.

In short, nobody would ever agree to such a logically impossible and immoral plan. That's why we get so frustrated when we debate truthers. The logic and psychology of such a conspiracy does not work.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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LMCane
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In reply to The Fife • 8:08a, 12/21/22
The Fife said:
GAC06 said:
AggiEE said:
Yes, that's what we've been told happened. Doesn't make it so.

Where's the big engine damage? Why did the inner portion of the pentagon get so deeply penetrated by one of the relatively lightest parts of the aircraft? Why are eyewitness reports not consistent? Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots? Why isn't there more discernible wreckage? Why won't they release all the camera footage?


Literally every one of those has been addressed in this thread, and you've been clubbed with facts. You've crawfished full circle back to the beginning. There's a reason 9/11 truthers are so widely regarded as morons.
Guapo here really seems to be looking for some kind of airplane-shaped hole (with engine holes too dammit!) like it's Wile-e-Coyote hitting a wall on a Roadrunner cartoon. Ignoring reality and pretending that only those two components can be traced back to that plane, even if he was presented with the part and serial number for every disc, blade, and whatever else it wouldn't work because now we want American's MX records for how the engine assemblies were installed on the plane

Providing that wouldn't be good enough because how'd those parts get on that S/N engine??? Give him Rolls' paper build records and he'd either point out where it looks like QA forgot to date a stamp halfway through and claim the whole thing invalid, or just say "well that's all fake anyway."
The 9/11 Truthers are not only stupid and a bit insane-

but fairly immoral as well. they are basically claiming WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE that the true American patriots who were murdered were actually murdered in a US government coverup.

it's a disservice to their memory, their families, and the memory of the 4000 US troops killed in Afghanistan
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LMCane
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In reply to The Kraken • 8:10a, 12/21/22
New World Ag said:
AggiEE said:
The amount of people that willingly knew would not need to be as high as claimed. These ops are highly compartmentalized and can be conducted under benign orders collectively being orchestrated by those actually in the know at the top chain of command.


This was discussed in the previous thread. Even if you were able to compartmentalize with benign orders, once the results occurred everyone would realize what happened and people would talk, accusations would fly and hell would be paid. That's another reason why the such a deep conspiracy like the one truthers insist happen fails every test of reasoning.

Truthers view the government as this evil entity full of evil people with a singular goal of appealing the elite and the military industrial complex. The reality is that the government is composed of people just like me, you and our families and friends. My brother who is an Army O-6. One of my outfit buddies from A&M who is an AF O-8 and an upperclassman who is a Marine O-10. Friends who are FBI agents or work for other alphabet agencies.

Who do you know on this board or among your friends would go along with a plan to kill thousands of Americans in arguably the most shocking event to occur in American history? Zero, I'm sure. Yet somehow we had politicians (both R and D), military leaders, FBI, CIA, FAA, etc, all agree this plan's objectives were good, sound, would work without a hitch and would not be found out by whistleblowers (normal people) either before or after. They have to believe they could recruit people to do the dirty grunt work without anyone getting suspicious. They have to believe that those who operated under benign orders wouldn't pUt two and two together and realize what they did.

In short, nobody would ever agree to such a logically impossible and immoral plan. That's why get so frustrated when we debate truthers. The logic and psychology of such a conspiracy does not work.

you are leaving out the thousands of leftist media during the GW BUSH adminstration who for 8 years covered it up also-

because OF COURSE leftist journalists wanted to protect Bush and the Republicans.

let's not let the insane people also obfuscate that 100 members of the DOD were murdered at the Pentagon as well. As I mentioned before, I went on a date with a woman whose fiance was killed on 9/11 at the Pentagon. Was she lying?
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LMCane
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8:12a, 12/21/22
notice how the crazy 9/11 Truthers never actually come out with WHY the US government would fire a missile into the Pentagon and then cover it up?

so somehow the USG was smart enough to crash two planes into NYC and one plane into Pennsylvania, but instead of just crashing a fourth plane into the Pentagon they come up with a massively complex conspiracy to fire a missile instead?

why would they do that?
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RWWilson
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In reply to AggiEE • 8:14a, 12/21/22
AggiEE said:
Ha! I mean, it's not like our government would ever stage a false flag that killed innocent citizens.

Even though we know definitively that they have had a similar plan drafted up as Operation Northwoods and only needed presidential approval decades before 9/11

And then we have foreign governments like the Israelis attacking the US in false flags to catalyze their agenda

And it's not like Jihadis would ever fly planes into buildings or try to bring down the World Trade Center. Actually, that is a far more conceivable theory than any theory of events you have offered. Insofar as I can tell, here is the best theory that Truthers can cobble together:

A group of power-hungry neocons, led by Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Bush and others and organizationally represented by groups like the Project for a New American Century, seeks to bring about a "Pearl-Harbor-like event" that would accelerate a rightist revolution, laying the political foundation for invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far. Except in this story, the Reichstag fire is an immensely complicated media hoax; the conspirators plot to topple the World Trade Center and pin a series of hijackings on a group of Sunni extremists with alleged ties to al-Qaeda. How do they topple the Trade Center? Well, they make use of NORAD's expertise in flying remote-control aircraft and actually fly two such remote control aircraft into the Towers (in another version of the story, they conspire with al-Qaeda terrorists to actually hijack the planes), then pass the planes off as commercial jetliners in the media. But it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick.

For good measure -- apparently to lend credence to the hijacking story -- they then fake another hijacking/crash in the Pentagon, where there actually is no plane crash at all but instead a hole created by a cruise missile attack, fired by a mysterious "white jet" that after the attack circles the White House for some time, inspiring the attention of Secret Service agents who point at it curiously from the ground (apparently these White House Secret Service agents were not in on the plot, although FBI agents on scene at Ground Zero and in Shanksville and elsewhere were).

Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to AggiEE • 8:17a, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
My belief is it was a smaller plane and perhaps fired something to cause a bigger explosion/spectacle which would be more consistent with the inner portion of the pentagon being penetrated, and the lack of considerable engine impact areas and resulting engine debris

There are also eye witnesses that claim something similar if I recall

So your assertion is that a big plane didn't hit, but a small plane or missile hit, but fired a weapon just before impact to make it appear a big plane hit?
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Tony Franklins Other Shoe
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In reply to AggiEE • 8:20a, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
My current stance is I don't know what hit the Pentagon. The physical evidence that's available does not appear consistent with a 757 impact and resulting debris. The penetration of the fuselage into inner sections of the pentagon is not consistent with a 757

And if it is a 757, why won't the government disclose clear and convincing camera footage that they most assuredly have?
I have access to top secret film inside the Pentagon.


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RWWilson
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8:21a, 12/21/22
It is important that your theory actually fits with known fact. When I theorize that Al Qaeda planned and executed the hijacking of four passenger planes with the intent to crash them into U.S. landmarks, I am offering a theory that is backed by known facts. The Truther theory is unmoored - literally and figuratively. You don't have a shred of evidence that a single person in the government helped plan 9-11 yet that becomes the crux of your theory. The fact you don't realize how silly you look is itself a testament to your inability to logically reason.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to AggiEE • 8:22a, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots?

Where are you getting this bit of nonsense? You've said it here several times, while actual pilots tell you you are wrong.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to AggiEE • 8:25a, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
I am not totally dismissing the potential for it to be a 757, I'm just not overwhelmingly convinced it was

May have opted for a local drone aircraft instead if it was believed that increased air defense at pentagon could potentially jeopardize the outside 757 from a direct pentagon hit.

What air defense systems were in place at the Pentagon in 2001?

I'm guessing the answer is "none".
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Tony Franklins Other Shoe
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In reply to AggiEE • 8:28a, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
I think that eye witnesses can be unreliable. More so when dealing with a quickly moving event like this.

1. Just because they saw a plane doesn't mean they saw a 757

2. After the official narrative has been announced, psychologically they are more likely to admit to the official narrative even if they don't truly recall the exact aircraft details that would suggest a 757

3. Some are probably straight up government disinfo
Ouch. I thought your biggest smoking gun for WTC7 collapse is eye witness janitor/maintenance guy that distinctly heard explosions and was knocked down hanging on to stairs before scrambling to safety.

But now they can be unreliable when dealing with a quickly moving event such has a building collapse?

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Tony Franklins Other Shoe
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In reply to RWWilson • 8:34a, 12/21/22
AG
RWWilson said:



Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!
See, that's why the plan is so brilliant. As I said before, NO ONE could go four for four with these drone planes so one had to crash land off target. It's so clear that this operation couldn't be 100% successful so they even thought of crashing one short to muddy the waters for reality. Pretty brilliant if you ask me.

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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 9:03a, 12/21/22
The flight path was impossible? This is just like Oswald's shots from the school book depository, like it was some miracle shot. It wasn't. It was a very easy shot. I suggest anybody who doesn't believe that go to the school book depository museum and look out the window. There are X's on the street where JFK was hit. Anyone with marksmanship training could've made those shots.

CanyonAg, that's not directed at you, but AggieEE's post about the flight path in your post.
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chickencoupe16
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 9:20a, 12/21/22
AG
CanyonAg77 said:
AggiEE said:
Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots?

Where are you getting this bit of nonsense? You've said it here several times, while actual pilots tell you you are wrong.


I could see a little validity to this depending on what exactly he means by replicate. How specific does he want the replication to be?

For example: I rolled a truck in high school. Could a stunt driver replicate the wreck at the same speed, the same number of rolls, and the exact same beginning and end of the roll? Probably not because it's too specific for no reason and some of the corrections an inexperienced 17 year old made would be completely foreign to a highly experienced driver. But that level of specificity doesn't actually matter. At the end of the day, they could take a corner too fast, put the truck into the ditch, and flip it no problem.

Could a 757 pilot perfectly replicate all of the bad flying and jerky over-corrections of a novice with 10 hours of flight time? Probably not, but once again it doesn't matter. Could they fly it really close to the ground and into the side of the Pentagon? Absolutely.
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Thaddeus Beauregard
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 9:26a, 12/21/22
CanyonAg77 said:
AggiEE said:
Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots?

Where are you getting this bit of nonsense? You've said it here several times, while actual pilots tell you you are wrong.


There are several examples of pilots drawing detailed male genitalia in the sky with their flight paths.
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titan
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In reply to The Fife • 9:32a, 12/21/22
S


Quote:
Guapo here really seems to be looking for some kind of airplane-shaped hole (with engine holes too dammit!) like it's Wile-e-Coyote hitting a wall on a Roadrunner cartoon. Ignoring reality and pretending that only those two components can be traced back to that plane, even if he was presented with the part and serial number for every disc, blade, and whatever else it wouldn't work because now we want American's MX records for how the engine assemblies were installed on the plane
Amusingly put, but believe you have put a finger exactly on part of the problem with an image all can relate to. That seems to be exactly what is being implied ----- that the hole and other conditions don't match. But this is ignoring the real operation of kinetic forces and how they can shred and demolish an object impact another like the fighter jet crashed into wall test posted. Another example is kamikaze impacts on ships. What pieces sometimes survived and got well inside, but how little was left too. Another thing---its not like you don't have the evidence ---the forensic team didn't mispresent it --they didn't get to come in till well later. So photos don't show quite as many remains and type of pieces inside you might expect (or not) because they are not from the first moments.
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snowdog90
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In reply to LMCane • 11:11a, 12/21/22
LMCane said:
The Fife said:
GAC06 said:
AggiEE said:
Yes, that's what we've been told happened. Doesn't make it so.

Where's the big engine damage? Why did the inner portion of the pentagon get so deeply penetrated by one of the relatively lightest parts of the aircraft? Why are eyewitness reports not consistent? Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots? Why isn't there more discernible wreckage? Why won't they release all the camera footage?


Literally every one of those has been addressed in this thread, and you've been clubbed with facts. You've crawfished full circle back to the beginning. There's a reason 9/11 truthers are so widely regarded as morons.
Guapo here really seems to be looking for some kind of airplane-shaped hole (with engine holes too dammit!) like it's Wile-e-Coyote hitting a wall on a Roadrunner cartoon. Ignoring reality and pretending that only those two components can be traced back to that plane, even if he was presented with the part and serial number for every disc, blade, and whatever else it wouldn't work because now we want American's MX records for how the engine assemblies were installed on the plane

Providing that wouldn't be good enough because how'd those parts get on that S/N engine??? Give him Rolls' paper build records and he'd either point out where it looks like QA forgot to date a stamp halfway through and claim the whole thing invalid, or just say "well that's all fake anyway."
The 9/11 Truthers are not only stupid and a bit insane-

but fairly immoral as well. they are basically claiming WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE that the true American patriots who were murdered were actually murdered in a US government coverup.

it's a disservice to their memory, their families, and the memory of the 4000 US troops killed in Afghanistan


I've stayed out of this thread because these threads always devolve into name-calling and most people who believe the official story are so emotionally attached to it that they will never entertain questions about 911.

The post above calls Truthers stupid and insane, which is common - intellectually lazy and shortsighted, but common.

But the dumbest part of this post, and the part that annoys me the most is that somehow the Truther movement damages the memories of those lost due to 911.

The Truther movement was STARTED by family members of people who died on 911. They started the movement because they didn't believe the story their government was telling them. The same government that did no investigation until years later. The same government that basically convicted bin Laden within hours of the planes hitting the towers.

The same corrupt government arguably responsible for so many corrupt actions.

America is a great country, maybe the greatest ever, and it was founded on great principles. But over the 250+ years of it's existence, it has been greatly corrupted, culminating into the corrupt mess we have now with Biden.

I and many others believe that 911 was one of the many corrupt operations this government perpetrated. I believe this based on hundreds of hours of research. I admit, I could be wrong, but that does not make me stupid and insane. And I am not doing a disservice to anyone in looking for the truth of what happened on 911 - a truth, by the way, that can NEVER be fully proven because no investigation of the physical crime scene was ever done.

Americans are mostly great people and believe in this great country, but the truly insane people, sociopaths and pychopaths, are running the country. They don't care about you or me or the 3,000 lost on 911, or the soldiers lost in war, or the million dead Iraqis and Afghans. They care about their own money and power and the will do anything to gain more of both.
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Satellite of Love
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In reply to AggiEE • 11:19a, 12/21/22
AggiEE said:
My current stance is I don't know what hit the Pentagon. The physical evidence that's available does not appear consistent with a 757 impact and resulting debris. The penetration of the fuselage into inner sections of the pentagon is not consistent with a 757

And if it is a 757, why won't the government disclose clear and convincing camera footage that they most assuredly have?
You do know the plane hit the Pentagon at an angle right? It wasn't head on. There's your inconsistenty with a 757 crash. BTW, do you have evidance of what a "normal" 757 into a concrete building should look like?

You do understand that and object loses energy as it hits objects? Impact deeper into the structure would have less of an impact as the initial crash (note we are talking about a reenforced concrete structure).
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Satellite of Love
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In reply to snowdog90 • 11:27a, 12/21/22
snowdog90 said:

I and many others believe that 911 was one of the many corrupt operations this government perpetrated. I believe this based on hundreds of hours of research. I admit, I could be wrong, but that does not make me stupid and insane. And I am not doing a disservice to anyone in looking for the truth of what happened on 911 - a truth, by the way, that can NEVER be fully proven because no investigation of the physical crime scene was ever done.
What are you looking for in a crime scene? Finger prints? DNA? 2 of the crash were recorded on video. Another with a few frames from a parking lot. Flight recorder data was recovered from Flights 77 and 93. They have passenger manifests, cockpit recordings, radar data....what else is there to investigate? Planes crashed into buildings (a fourth in a field) and people died.
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Dimebag Darrell
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In reply to wbt5845 • 11:31a, 12/21/22
wbt5845 said:
GAC06 said:
Here is the evidence you have presented to justify claiming it was not AA77: nothing. Zero evidence. None.
In his defense (can't believe I'm doing this), you can't prove a negative - ERGO the conspiracy theories live since no one can definitively prove they AREN'T true.

It's a form of insanity, really.
I agree...Just funny coming from a guy who denies that the FBI colluded/conspired with big tech companies to sway or interfere with an election.

No offense, but you're no better than them. People like you are actually MORE harmful to me and my country than bozos who believe we faked the moon landing and orchestrated 9/11. I'll take a conspiracy nut who distrusts or even hates the government every day of the week over someone who goaltends and carries water for them.
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Duckhook
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In reply to snowdog90 • 11:36a, 12/21/22
AG
snowdog90 said:
LMCane said:
The Fife said:
GAC06 said:
AggiEE said:
Yes, that's what we've been told happened. Doesn't make it so.

Where's the big engine damage? Why did the inner portion of the pentagon get so deeply penetrated by one of the relatively lightest parts of the aircraft? Why are eyewitness reports not consistent? Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots? Why isn't there more discernible wreckage? Why won't they release all the camera footage?


Literally every one of those has been addressed in this thread, and you've been clubbed with facts. You've crawfished full circle back to the beginning. There's a reason 9/11 truthers are so widely regarded as morons.
Guapo here really seems to be looking for some kind of airplane-shaped hole (with engine holes too dammit!) like it's Wile-e-Coyote hitting a wall on a Roadrunner cartoon. Ignoring reality and pretending that only those two components can be traced back to that plane, even if he was presented with the part and serial number for every disc, blade, and whatever else it wouldn't work because now we want American's MX records for how the engine assemblies were installed on the plane

Providing that wouldn't be good enough because how'd those parts get on that S/N engine??? Give him Rolls' paper build records and he'd either point out where it looks like QA forgot to date a stamp halfway through and claim the whole thing invalid, or just say "well that's all fake anyway."
The 9/11 Truthers are not only stupid and a bit insane-

but fairly immoral as well. they are basically claiming WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE that the true American patriots who were murdered were actually murdered in a US government coverup.

it's a disservice to their memory, their families, and the memory of the 4000 US troops killed in Afghanistan


I've stayed out of this thread because these threads always devolve into name-calling and most people who believe the official story are so emotionally attached to it that they will never entertain questions about 911.

The post above calls Truthers stupid and insane, which is common - intellectually lazy and shortsighted, but common.

But the dumbest part of this post, and the part that annoys me the most is that somehow the Truther movement damages the memories of those lost due to 911.

The Truther movement was STARTED by family members of people who died on 911. They started the movement because they didn't believe the story their government was telling them. The same government that did no investigation until years later. The same government that basically convicted bin Laden within hours of the planes hitting the towers.

The same corrupt government arguably responsible for so many corrupt actions.

America is a great country, maybe the greatest ever, and it was founded on great principles. But over the 250+ years of it's existence, it has been greatly corrupted, culminating into the corrupt mess we have now with Biden.

I and many others believe that 911 was one of the many corrupt operations this government perpetrated. I believe this based on hundreds of hours of research. I admit, I could be wrong, but that does not make me stupid and insane. And I am not doing a disservice to anyone in looking for the truth of what happened on 911 - a truth, by the way, that can NEVER be fully proven because no investigation of the physical crime scene was ever done.

Americans are mostly great people and believe in this great country, but the truly insane people, sociopaths and pychopaths, are running the country. They don't care about you or me or the 3,000 lost on 911, or the soldiers lost in war, or the million dead Iraqis and Afghans. They care about their own money and power and the will do anything to gain more of both.

If you've truly done hundreds of hours of research, then please share your theory of what happened at the Pentagon on 9/11 and your evidence to support that theory. And, please, some evidence beyond "I don't trust the government".
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Duckhook
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In reply to Dimebag Darrell • 11:41a, 12/21/22
AG
Brittmoore Car Club said:
wbt5845 said:
GAC06 said:
Here is the evidence you have presented to justify claiming it was not AA77: nothing. Zero evidence. None.
In his defense (can't believe I'm doing this), you can't prove a negative - ERGO the conspiracy theories live since no one can definitively prove they AREN'T true.

It's a form of insanity, really.
I agree...Just funny coming from a guy who denies that the FBI colluded/conspired with big tech companies to sway or interfere with an election.

No offense, but you're no better than them. People like you are actually MORE harmful to me and my country than bozos who believe we faked the moon landing and orchestrated 9/11. I'll take a conspiracy nut who distrusts or even hates the government every day of the week over someone who goaltends and carries water for them.

It is possible to not be 100% trustful of the government and still believe moon landing-deniers and Truthers are loons.
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J. Walter Weatherman
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In reply to RWWilson • 11:43a, 12/21/22
RWWilson said:
It is important that your theory actually fits with known fact. When I theorize that Al Qaeda planned and executed the hijacking of four passenger planes with the intent to crash them into U.S. landmarks, I am offering a theory that is backed by known facts. The Truther theory is unmoored - literally and figuratively. You don't have a shred of evidence that a single person in the government helped plan 9-11 yet that becomes the crux of your theory. The fact you don't realize how silly you look is itself a testament to your inability to logically reason.


Not to mention Al Qaeda and bin Laden admitted they did it. I'm sure they were in on it too though.
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J. Walter Weatherman
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 11:45a, 12/21/22
CanyonAg77 said:
AggiEE said:
Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots?

Where are you getting this bit of nonsense? You've said it here several times, while actual pilots tell you you are wrong.


Who cares what those "actual pilots" say? Did you watch minute 65:31 on thetruthisoutthere528473123's YouTube video???
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titan
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In reply to GAC06 • 11:53a, 12/21/22
S
GAC06 said:
Here is the evidence you have presented to justify claiming it was not AA77: nothing. Zero evidence. None.

Every bit of evidence points to AA77.

You can't even come up with a reason why it might even make sense to not use AA77 as had been used in the other three attacks.
That's the part not hearing ---- what is being concealed if a different plane was used, and why all the contortions?

Because if:
1) A different type of plane was slammed into the building, why call it a 757 rather than what it was?

2) Why involve AA 77 at all? What not picking up on is why does the type of aircraft matter for the attack---even if it per se proves they "lied about" it. Unless one wants to say all the witnesses lied, it has to probably be another two engine plane.

2) Or, if saying there was no plane, what was being blown up? The ONI offices targeted, what? What was the reason?

I guess the issue is-- why this refusal to at least offer a speculative scenario connecting these `alternate version' dots? In their position would not hesitate to do so. Like the speculation on where the ancient ruins were mentioned earlier. Why not say how this could make sense, rather than this contorted approach of `well what the officials say has to be wrong'

That said, it should be realized the Civil Engineer damage report lamented they were not even allowed there till Oct 4. They even say "information is limited" on the event. That's the real bizarre thing in info laded 2001 and more fruitful question area imo.
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Dimebag Darrell
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In reply to Duckhook • 12:03p, 12/21/22
Duckhook said:
Brittmoore Car Club said:
wbt5845 said:
GAC06 said:
Here is the evidence you have presented to justify claiming it was not AA77: nothing. Zero evidence. None.
In his defense (can't believe I'm doing this), you can't prove a negative - ERGO the conspiracy theories live since no one can definitively prove they AREN'T true.

It's a form of insanity, really.
I agree...Just funny coming from a guy who denies that the FBI colluded/conspired with big tech companies to sway or interfere with an election.

No offense, but you're no better than them. People like you are actually MORE harmful to me and my country than bozos who believe we faked the moon landing and orchestrated 9/11. I'll take a conspiracy nut who distrusts or even hates the government every day of the week over someone who goaltends and carries water for them.

It is possible to not be 100% trustful of the government and still believe moon landing-deniers and Truthers are loons.
I agree, I was responding directly to him because he denies FBI was in bed with big tech to interfere with the election. He is denying facts and reality.
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yawny06
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In reply to snowdog90 • 12:04p, 12/21/22
AG
Quote:
I admit, I could be wrong, but that does not make me stupid and insane.


Claiming to be skeptical of our government does not make someone insane or stupid. But that is not the argument being made here in this thread.

This thread has people arguing that UA 77 did not actually crash into the Pentagon and that any evidence that supports UA 77 crashing into the Pentagon was planted or fabricated. That is stupid and insane.

And this argument is in fact a horrible disgrace to the memory of the people who died on UA 77 when it crashed into the Pentagon and to all the people who witnessed and responded to it when it happened.
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titan
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In reply to Dimebag Darrell • 12:09p, 12/21/22
S
Brittmoore Car Club said:
Duckhook said:
Brittmoore Car Club said:
wbt5845 said:
GAC06 said:
Here is the evidence you have presented to justify claiming it was not AA77: nothing. Zero evidence. None.
In his defense (can't believe I'm doing this), you can't prove a negative - ERGO the conspiracy theories live since no one can definitively prove they AREN'T true.

It's a form of insanity, really.
I agree...Just funny coming from a guy who denies that the FBI colluded/conspired with big tech companies to sway or interfere with an election.

No offense, but you're no better than them. People like you are actually MORE harmful to me and my country than bozos who believe we faked the moon landing and orchestrated 9/11. I'll take a conspiracy nut who distrusts or even hates the government every day of the week over someone who goaltends and carries water for them.

It is possible to not be 100% trustful of the government and still believe moon landing-deniers and Truthers are loons.
I agree, I was responding directly to him because he denies FBI was in bed with big tech to interfere with the election. He is denying facts and reality.
He does? That is in the realm of settled fact now. It was definitely rigged going into Election Day. Whatever came after.
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agracer
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In reply to AggiEE • 3:14p, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
My current stance is I should turn in my degree
FIFY
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schmellba99
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In reply to snowdog90 • 4:54p, 12/21/22
AG
snowdog90 said:
LMCane said:
The Fife said:
GAC06 said:
AggiEE said:
Yes, that's what we've been told happened. Doesn't make it so.

Where's the big engine damage? Why did the inner portion of the pentagon get so deeply penetrated by one of the relatively lightest parts of the aircraft? Why are eyewitness reports not consistent? Why is it that the claimed flight path is impossible to replicate by highly experienced 757 pilots? Why isn't there more discernible wreckage? Why won't they release all the camera footage?


Literally every one of those has been addressed in this thread, and you've been clubbed with facts. You've crawfished full circle back to the beginning. There's a reason 9/11 truthers are so widely regarded as morons.
Guapo here really seems to be looking for some kind of airplane-shaped hole (with engine holes too dammit!) like it's Wile-e-Coyote hitting a wall on a Roadrunner cartoon. Ignoring reality and pretending that only those two components can be traced back to that plane, even if he was presented with the part and serial number for every disc, blade, and whatever else it wouldn't work because now we want American's MX records for how the engine assemblies were installed on the plane

Providing that wouldn't be good enough because how'd those parts get on that S/N engine??? Give him Rolls' paper build records and he'd either point out where it looks like QA forgot to date a stamp halfway through and claim the whole thing invalid, or just say "well that's all fake anyway."
The 9/11 Truthers are not only stupid and a bit insane-

but fairly immoral as well. they are basically claiming WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE that the true American patriots who were murdered were actually murdered in a US government coverup.

it's a disservice to their memory, their families, and the memory of the 4000 US troops killed in Afghanistan


I've stayed out of this thread because these threads always devolve into name-calling and most people who believe the official story are so emotionally attached to it that they will never entertain questions about 911.

The post above calls Truthers stupid and insane, which is common - intellectually lazy and shortsighted, but common.

But the dumbest part of this post, and the part that annoys me the most is that somehow the Truther movement damages the memories of those lost due to 911.

The Truther movement was STARTED by family members of people who died on 911. They started the movement because they didn't believe the story their government was telling them. The same government that did no investigation until years later. The same government that basically convicted bin Laden within hours of the planes hitting the towers.

The same corrupt government arguably responsible for so many corrupt actions.

America is a great country, maybe the greatest ever, and it was founded on great principles. But over the 250+ years of it's existence, it has been greatly corrupted, culminating into the corrupt mess we have now with Biden.

I and many others believe that 911 was one of the many corrupt operations this government perpetrated. I believe this based on hundreds of hours of research. I admit, I could be wrong, but that does not make me stupid and insane. And I am not doing a disservice to anyone in looking for the truth of what happened on 911 - a truth, by the way, that can NEVER be fully proven because no investigation of the physical crime scene was ever done.

Americans are mostly great people and believe in this great country, but the truly insane people, sociopaths and pychopaths, are running the country. They don't care about you or me or the 3,000 lost on 911, or the soldiers lost in war, or the million dead Iraqis and Afghans. They care about their own money and power and the will do anything to gain more of both.
What is ironic is truthers acting like they are open minded to any degree whtatsoever in this discussion.

What is intellectually dishonest and lazy is the abject rejection of every single bit of actual evidence and instead going on with some dumbass theory because you think it makes you uber intellectually superior or whatever.

The second bolded part is utter crap, but you dont have the internal fortitude to actually acknowledge that. Unless you think that because some of the results weren't published until past whatever arbitrary date you have in your head, that automatically means that investigations didn't start until way past whatever arbitrary date in your head they should have.

Asking questions is a good thing - but you have to be willing to accept the answers when the data right in front of you says that this is what the answer is, even if you don't like it at all. There isn't a truther out there that has ever been able to do that very thing.

So your "you government slob knobbers are just lemmings!" passive aggressive garbage is exactly that - garbage.

There were plenty of crap things that resulted from 9/11, and the government 100% jumped on the opportunity to pass laws that gave them far more power as a result. But that doesn't mean that thousands of feds somehow all made a pact to plan and execute 9/11, blow up buildings, etc to get to that end either. Thinking that, given the actual evidence that is widely known, is just dumb.

HTMFH. Toodles!
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schmellba99
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In reply to AggiEE • 5:01p, 12/21/22
AG
AggiEE said:
My current stance is I don't know what hit the Pentagon. The physical evidence that's available does not appear consistent with a 757 impact and resulting debris. The penetration of the fuselage into inner sections of the pentagon is not consistent with a 757

And if it is a 757, why won't the government disclose clear and convincing camera footage that they most assuredly have?
Please, detail your extensive experience in both structural systems of the Pentagon (including the upgrades that were in progress and completed at the time of the impact), along with your extensive knowledge of Boeing 757 design.

I also want to see your extensive study and calculations of what an impact at approximately 350 knots of a 757 into a building with the design and structural enhancements of the Pentagon should be, so we can compare to what they actually were.

But wait a minute...you've stated multiple times that you have no knowledge or experience in these areas. Yet you just now speak as if you have some level of authority. So which is it? Do you have knowledge and experience in these disciplines, or are you just slinging **** against the wall because you cannot understand the evidence and simply don't like what you have seen presented, so you are going to continue burying your head in the ground and pretend something else happened?

And the standard "why isn't there more footage?!?!?" question. Because that hasn't been answered extensively already.

Just admit that no matter what, you will never believe actual data and choose to believe your made up fantasy because that's what gets your jollies going. It would be a lot easier that way.
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titan
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5:15p, 12/21/22
S

Wish the skeptics would at least outline which particular take of alternatve or `truther' scenario they
are leaning towards? There are actually several variants for the Pentagon scenario --- you should
at least offer an outline of which one makes the most sense to you rather just hand waving away things
like witnesses seeing a 2-engine plane and reporting that pretty much out of the gate.

At least explain what you think the missing camera footage might show or not--why it matters? As said, there are more than one or two scenarios, so at least say which one you think has actual evidence/indicators of some kind and go from there.
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schmellba99
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In reply to Dimebag Darrell • 5:19p, 12/21/22
AG
Brittmoore Car Club said:
schmellba99 said:
txrancher69 said:
All you guys abusing what you call "truthers" are pathetic. Your whole answer to everything is "muh gubment tells me so".

The answer to much of this, like everything, is somewhere in the middle. But you people cannot even see there might be a middle. From the first page of this thread and on some of you just relentlessly question the intelligence and motives of anyone who says, wait a minute my eyes are not seeing what you are seeing. My information sources are different from yours. My interpretation is not what yours is.

Grow up, learn to listen and don't be so dramatically dogmatic. Plus, you need to realize that your own credibility is shot once you start using "muh gubment" sources to bolster your arguments. That is tripping down the path of insanity, government agenices have never told you the truth about anything yet.
Imma let you in on a little hint vato - muh gubmint didn't tell me ***** I saw it with my own fuggin eyes and have the capacity for logical thought on how and why the buildings collapsed in the manner that they did.

I destroy truthers because, by in large, they are idiots that can't think and as shown on this thread, try to apply modern technology to 20 years ago in their quest to prove what cannot be proved. Sometimes...juuuuuussst sometimes.....you have to call a spade a spade. Or in cases like this, a dumbass a dumbass.
I don't think it makes someone a "dumbass" to think the most important buildings in the world likely had high-tech surveillance cameras littering the place in and out that most businesses and casinos didn't have at that time. Maybe they did maybe they didn't, but to think the government wouldn't have the money or means to have security cams in 2001 with quality on par with my dad's handheld Panasonic at that time, or the camcorder that caught the plane going into tower two...or in that ballpark...is crazy to me. Surely the White House did, right?

There is footage we haven't seen and will likely never seen. Most likely for very legitimate reasons, as I think you mentioned earlier.
No, it does.

Nobody is stating that there isn't other video out there, especially at the Pentagon. What has been stated, that truthers just don't want to comprehend or accept, is that the entire concept of both video technology and the focus of security in 2001 is absolutely different than today. I stated this in another post already.

In 2001 the major focuses of video and security were on access points - mostly vehicle access, but also some foot access. The technology for video was significantly behind where we are now - it literally took rooms of VCR's (that was still the main method of video recording back then) to capture video. There weren't as many cameras to begin with, the quality wasn't nearly as good, and they were pointed at the places security deemed highest level threat areas then. Remember we were coming off the WTC bombing in NY in 1993 that was a vehicle bomb detonated in the parking garage and the Sri Lanka WTC bombing in 1997 that was also a vehicle bomb. The focus was protecting from vehicular attacks, not airplane attacks, and those cameras had much slower frame rates to boot. So having dedicated cameras with the limited capabilities showing the exterior of the building wasn't going to happen.

The footage we will never likely see is going to be interior footage, and we won't see that because it will always be classified or never unsealed. Or it won't be until about 2060 or whatever year it becomes eligible for declassification.

A whole lot of how we view the world today through the security lense is a result of 9/11 and events since then.

So yes, it's dumb to think we had the same mentality and security measures in 2001 that we see routinely today in 2022.
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schmellba99
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In reply to chickencoupe16 • 5:22p, 12/21/22
AG
You have a problem with the facts of why the feds wouldn't release footage from inside the Pentagon (assuming it exists, which i think most believe it does - I certainly do) even though I've told you why based on actual real world experience at various military installations regarding taking pictures and how the feds and .mil handle what pictures can and cannot leave the installation due to security risks.

But hey...whatever works for you I guess.
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