aTmAg said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Why would the best male athlete of all time play a women's/kids sport?

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Either trolling or doesn't know squat about futebol.

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Oh, I played the game. As a kid.

All the acting and corruption are fit for a daytime soap opera.

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Have you ever watched Messi? He's famous for not diving.

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That's badass...RESPECT. I think if this was the norm, a lot more Americans would buy into the sport. In general, we love toughness and hate flopping. And you see a ton of flopping in just about every soccer match. There are entire highlight videos of dudes not being touched and flying to the ground to try to cheat.

I think our lack of respect or interest in soccer is kind of engrained into our culture in a way. In most other areas of the world, it's normal and expected to cheat, lie, cut in line, fake things etc. Over here, that crap is mostly considering dishonorable though. I believe that is changing.

Soccer is different than most sports because you can't simply insert a freak athlete, train him on the basics and guarantee success like you can with basketball or football. Soccer requires skills that cannot be picked up later in life, it also requires tactical IQ similar to being good at chess. In addition soccer requires elite fitness and agility. Messi may not be the best pure athlete, but his mastery of the ball and tactical IQ arguably makes him the most iconic sports figure of all time.

Whirligigs said:

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If he lost then there wouldn't be any article about him.

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But he didn't. If Jordan hadn't won five rings, he wouldn't be the best basketball player ever.

Third Son said:

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Soccer is different than most sports because you can't simply insert a freak athlete, train him on the basics and guarantee success like you can with basketball or football. Soccer requires skills that cannot be picked up later in life, it also requires tactical IQ similar to being good at chess. In addition soccer requires elite fitness and agility. Messi may not be the best pure athlete, but his mastery of the ball and tactical IQ arguably makes him the most iconic sports figure of all time.

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Dude, almost all professional athletes in the major sports are pretty much lifers. Guys like Olajuwon, who can pick up the game in a handful of years, are amazing, but they are the rare exception.

You'd be hard pressed to find any baseball players that didn't play pee wee league, or basketball/football players that didn't start in JR. High at the latest.

Pound for pound best all around athlete...it's gotta be Bo Jackson.

However, when you look at single sport, individual athletic dominance, Michael Phelps wins.

Ah yes the weekly soccer is a dumb sport from fat American peasants never change F16

Valtrex_11 said:

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Ah yes the weekly soccer is a dumb sport from fat American peasants never change F16

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It's not dumb, just effeminate.

Charlie Ward says hello. Seriously.

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That's badass...RESPECT. I think if this was the norm, a lot more Americans would buy into the sport. In general, we love toughness and hate flopping. And you see a ton of flopping in just about every soccer match. There are entire highlight videos of dudes not being touched and flying to the ground to try to cheat.

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Agree that flopping is a problem for a lot of Americans.

How much flopping there is really depends on the league you watch. Most European leagues have spent the last 20 years or so trying to get rid of it. It still happens in England, Germany, Spain, etc. but not nearly as much as it used too. Flopping in the box is now an automatic yellow card and you see a much more negative reaction to it by most players. It is still very much a thing Mexico south and the South Americans who go play in Europe are generally the ones that try to do it. But they are doing it at 22 years old. Not at 32. Generally. If you sit down and watch a Premier League game you will see very little flopping.

To add to that is people *****ing about faking injuries. It is almost comical at times and is really just a cultural thing to overreact. Nobody believes them when they do it, including the person doing it. You will a lot of times see everyone laughing or smirking, including the players and referees. But one reason people stay on the ground is there are no timeouts in soccer and players will do it to reset their positions or just to give everyone a chance to catch their collective breath late in games or close to halftime. You will even see referees encourage it.

agsalaska said:

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twk said:

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Lionel Messi's Last Dance Is More of a Stroll

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The Argentine superstar is one of soccer's most dangerous scorers. But he spends most of his time on the pitch moving slowly in a small space.

When Lionel Messi takes the field for Argentina's World Cup quarterfinal against the Netherlands on Friday, it will mark the latest moment in what is likely his final run at the trophy.
Except it's actually been more of a walk.

Messi remains one of soccer's most dangerous scorers because, at 35 years old, he can still do things on the ball that most players can scarcely imagine. But that amounts only to a couple of minutes per game. It's how he spends the rest of his time on the pitch that makes it look like he's strolling through a museum.

A Wall Street Journal analysis of player-tracking data from the World Cup finds that there isn't any player left in this tournament who walks the walk quite like Messi. The Argentine forward has spent more than half of his time on the pitch here at speeds between 0 kilometers per hour and 7 kilometers per hour (4.3 miles per houra brisk walking pace.

Of the 33.1 kilometers he has covered on the pitch during the first four games, 57.7% of them have been trudging at under 7 kph.

Messi's penchant for leisurely ambling isn't common. Among the 24 most attacking-minded players left in this World Cup, the average rate of time at that slow pace is just 37.4%. Messi's percentage is far and away the highest. Even a famously chiseled guy from Portugal doesn't loaf as much. Cristiano Ronaldo has only operated at below seven kph 43% of the timeat least when he's not on the bench.

None of this is new. Nearly two decades into his professional career, Messi's stroll is one of the familiar gaits in soccer. The 5-foot-7 genius, wearing shorts that reach down to his knees, paces the pitch with his shoulders stooped and his arms at his sides. He looks like someone just took his lunch money.
But once he spots a sequence he likes, Messi transforms. He perks up, revs the engine, and starts to motor into the spaces where he can do maximum damage. In four games at this World Cup, he has three goals and one assist.

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This is why it's hard to rate him with guys like Jordan or Bo Jackson. Messi is, without a doubt, the most skilled soccer player of his generation, but how does his skill compare with other sports that require more sheer athelticism? There is not right or wrong answer, but I can see why folks would hesitate at naming a soccer player like Messi the greatest athlete, just because he dominates his sport (and for the record, he doesn't dominate it in quite the same way that, say, Jordan dominated basketball).

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What sport requires more sheer athleticism? I think soccer requires the most. It is the one sport that you have to have everything to be able to play.

Not sure I agree that Jordan dominated his sport more. Messi has won seven world player of the year awards. Jordan won five league MVPs. It is hard to quantify leading scorers in soccer because they play several different competitions in a year where the NBA is just one. But Messi holds the all time scoring record in La Liga and has the most goals scored internationally by a South American. He has led all of Europe in goals scored in a season six times. Jordan has led the league ten times, but that's a league of just 30 teams. That comparison can go on and on.

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Jordan can run faster, jump higher, has a more impressive musculoskeletal structure, and he could easily beat Messi's ass in a fight. Better athlete, Jordan.

Messi's won so many individual, club and international trophies
International
1 World Cup
1 Olymic Gold Medal
1 Copa America
1 U-20 World Cup

Club
4 Champions League Titles
10 Spanish League Titles
1 French League Title
21 Copa Del Rey, Spanish Super Cup, UEFA Club World Cup, UEFA Super Cup, French Super Cup*

Individual
7 World Player of Year
6 Top Scorer in Europe
2 World Cup Best Player

* The Cups are not as prestigeous as league titles or champions league title so lumped them all into one line

Street Fighter said:

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I don't think anyone can actually make a case for best athlete of "all time". Their are too many variables and lot's of personal bias.

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This. Outside of a headline yesterday and this thread, I had never heard of Messi. He may be the best soccer athlete of all time and more, but given my completely nonexistent interest in soccer then you're never going to convince me of that. GOAT designations should be limited to the athletes particular sport if you're trying to make a meaningful comparison.

Without reading the article or thread, who the hell is Lionel Messi?

twk said:

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Lionel Messi's Last Dance Is More of a Stroll

Quote:

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The Argentine superstar is one of soccer's most dangerous scorers. But he spends most of his time on the pitch moving slowly in a small space.

When Lionel Messi takes the field for Argentina's World Cup quarterfinal against the Netherlands on Friday, it will mark the latest moment in what is likely his final run at the trophy.
Except it's actually been more of a walk.

Messi remains one of soccer's most dangerous scorers because, at 35 years old, he can still do things on the ball that most players can scarcely imagine. But that amounts only to a couple of minutes per game. It's how he spends the rest of his time on the pitch that makes it look like he's strolling through a museum.

A Wall Street Journal analysis of player-tracking data from the World Cup finds that there isn't any player left in this tournament who walks the walk quite like Messi. The Argentine forward has spent more than half of his time on the pitch here at speeds between 0 kilometers per hour and 7 kilometers per hour (4.3 miles per houra brisk walking pace.

Of the 33.1 kilometers he has covered on the pitch during the first four games, 57.7% of them have been trudging at under 7 kph.

Messi's penchant for leisurely ambling isn't common. Among the 24 most attacking-minded players left in this World Cup, the average rate of time at that slow pace is just 37.4%. Messi's percentage is far and away the highest. Even a famously chiseled guy from Portugal doesn't loaf as much. Cristiano Ronaldo has only operated at below seven kph 43% of the timeat least when he's not on the bench.

None of this is new. Nearly two decades into his professional career, Messi's stroll is one of the familiar gaits in soccer. The 5-foot-7 genius, wearing shorts that reach down to his knees, paces the pitch with his shoulders stooped and his arms at his sides. He looks like someone just took his lunch money.
But once he spots a sequence he likes, Messi transforms. He perks up, revs the engine, and starts to motor into the spaces where he can do maximum damage. In four games at this World Cup, he has three goals and one assist.

---

This is why it's hard to rate him with guys like Jordan or Bo Jackson. Messi is, without a doubt, the most skilled soccer player of his generation, but how does his skill compare with other sports that require more sheer athelticism? There is not right or wrong answer, but I can see why folks would hesitate at naming a soccer player like Messi the greatest athlete, just because he dominates his sport (and for the record, he doesn't dominate it in quite the same way that, say, Jordan dominated basketball).

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Messi is absolutely dominating like Jordan. Messi just won the WC and player of the tournament (and likely his 8th Ballon D'or) at the same age that Jordan won his last ring. He walks more because soccer is a sport where players run 2-3 times farther than NBA players per game, with far fewer breaks. And, unlike Jordan, Messi plays every minute of every game. Jordan wasn't dunking like his 25 year old self by the time he was 35 either.

And like Jordan, Messi's #1 asset is his brain. Do you discount Tom Brady from the GOAT discussion because he is not nearly as athletic as Jerry Rice? I would certainly hope not. Yet Messi has Brady brains along with Jerry Rice's athleticism. His athleticism and has been on par with the best NFL or NBA athletes:

torrid said:

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Without reading the article or thread, who the hell is Lionel Messi?

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One of the top 5 athletes of all time, to be fair. I am a casual soccer fan but what he does with the frame/size he genetically has been blessed with is truly incredible. Even if you don't care about soccer I'd recommend enjoying a few minutes of his highlights (especially Barcellona days).

AggieZUUL said:

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Pound for pound best all around athlete...it's gotta be Bo Jackson.

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Neon Deion or gtfo

He was actually good at baseball

43rd Street Posse said:

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agsalaska said:

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twk said:

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Lionel Messi's Last Dance Is More of a Stroll

Quote:

---

The Argentine superstar is one of soccer's most dangerous scorers. But he spends most of his time on the pitch moving slowly in a small space.

When Lionel Messi takes the field for Argentina's World Cup quarterfinal against the Netherlands on Friday, it will mark the latest moment in what is likely his final run at the trophy.
Except it's actually been more of a walk.

Messi remains one of soccer's most dangerous scorers because, at 35 years old, he can still do things on the ball that most players can scarcely imagine. But that amounts only to a couple of minutes per game. It's how he spends the rest of his time on the pitch that makes it look like he's strolling through a museum.

A Wall Street Journal analysis of player-tracking data from the World Cup finds that there isn't any player left in this tournament who walks the walk quite like Messi. The Argentine forward has spent more than half of his time on the pitch here at speeds between 0 kilometers per hour and 7 kilometers per hour (4.3 miles per houra brisk walking pace.

Of the 33.1 kilometers he has covered on the pitch during the first four games, 57.7% of them have been trudging at under 7 kph.

Messi's penchant for leisurely ambling isn't common. Among the 24 most attacking-minded players left in this World Cup, the average rate of time at that slow pace is just 37.4%. Messi's percentage is far and away the highest. Even a famously chiseled guy from Portugal doesn't loaf as much. Cristiano Ronaldo has only operated at below seven kph 43% of the timeat least when he's not on the bench.

None of this is new. Nearly two decades into his professional career, Messi's stroll is one of the familiar gaits in soccer. The 5-foot-7 genius, wearing shorts that reach down to his knees, paces the pitch with his shoulders stooped and his arms at his sides. He looks like someone just took his lunch money.
But once he spots a sequence he likes, Messi transforms. He perks up, revs the engine, and starts to motor into the spaces where he can do maximum damage. In four games at this World Cup, he has three goals and one assist.

---

This is why it's hard to rate him with guys like Jordan or Bo Jackson. Messi is, without a doubt, the most skilled soccer player of his generation, but how does his skill compare with other sports that require more sheer athelticism? There is not right or wrong answer, but I can see why folks would hesitate at naming a soccer player like Messi the greatest athlete, just because he dominates his sport (and for the record, he doesn't dominate it in quite the same way that, say, Jordan dominated basketball).

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What sport requires more sheer athleticism? I think soccer requires the most. It is the one sport that you have to have everything to be able to play.

Not sure I agree that Jordan dominated his sport more. Messi has won seven world player of the year awards. Jordan won five league MVPs. It is hard to quantify leading scorers in soccer because they play several different competitions in a year where the NBA is just one. But Messi holds the all time scoring record in La Liga and has the most goals scored internationally by a South American. He has led all of Europe in goals scored in a season six times. Jordan has led the league ten times, but that's a league of just 30 teams. That comparison can go on and on.

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Jordan can run faster, jump higher, has a more impressive musculoskeletal structure, and he could easily beat Messi's ass in a fight. Better athlete, Jordan.

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That's not what you said. You said Jordon dominated his sport more. Not that he was a better athlete.

Who?

Jr High would be way too late for soccer. Look at the NBA, they draft kids that are able to play above the rim (athletic) even if their stats are mid. You hear in college football all the time about the kid that just started playing ball their senior year in HS. You can't do that in soccer beyond rec league level.

agent-maroon said:

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Street Fighter said:

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I don't think anyone can actually make a case for best athlete of "all time". Their are too many variables and lot's of personal bias.

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This. Outside of a headline yesterday and this thread, I had never heard of Messi. He may be the best soccer athlete of all time and more, but given my completely nonexistent interest in soccer then you're never going to convince me of that. GOAT designations should be limited to the athletes particular sport if you're trying to make a meaningful comparison.

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Absolutely. The entire article is trash for that reason. I would also argue that it needs to be generation based. There are too many variables in play when the players eras get too far away.

For example, Babe Ruth played in an all white league. Ok. But spitballs were legal and some of the CF fences were 500+ feet. How can you compare that to Aaron Judge?

Third Son said:

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Jr High would be way too late for soccer. Look at the NBA, they draft kids that are able to play above the rim (athletic) even if their stats are mid. You hear in college football all the time about the kid that just started playing ball their senior year in HS. You can't do that in soccer beyond rec league level.

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To this point I agree. Soccer is a sport that in order to play at the highest level you start at a very young age. You are almost born into it. Baseball is like that too but for different reasons. I think to further the point is soccer requires a much more rounded athlete than Basketball or Football at the highest levels.

43rd Street Posse said:

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Valtrex_11 said:

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Ah yes the weekly soccer is a dumb sport from fat American peasants never change F16

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It's not dumb, just effeminate.

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So for the record, this crap pisses me off. This is exactly the reason I made fun of soccer for decades. It wasn't until I saw Messi highlights that I became a fan. I have wondered if Messi's domination (and the fact that every young player today grew up idolizing him) would change this. And it seems to me that maybe it has. I have noticed that there was a LOT less diving this WC than the last one (though I didn't watch every game). It seems to me that that young generation has finally come of age. Hopefully that continues.

"Maybe, but he always looked natural to me. Juicers are usually obvious in the upper body...See McGuire, Canseco, Bonds, Sosa etc. No denying his legs were super jacked, but upper body looks natural."

Bad toupee fallacy. You only notice a toupee when they are bad. When its good, it just looks like great hair. Same with plastic surgery. You don't notice well done plastic surgery.

Those guys you specifically mentioned were abusing HGH the most. Whose side effects are growing head size and organs - which is why you see a lot of '6 pack with gut' from them and from bodybuilders. If you look at guys who were using testosterone specific anabolic steroids instead human growth hormone, they look different.

Go look at the bodybuilders from Bo's era. And also modern sprinters. They're all on different versions of performance enhancing drugs. Even cyclists. I'd recommend watching Icharist on netflix, its eye opening.

You can be basically choose your performance enhancing drugs to tailor whatever physique you desire alongside training.

Street Fighter said:

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Get Off My Lawn said:

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As far as being a capable athlete, I'll take any "Ninja Warrior" contestant over a guy who simply runs on perfectly manicured grass.

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I hope you're being sarcastic. Messi has been a bad ass since he was 6 and became a pro when he was 16.

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Yep, the lil' guy even took HGH to help kickstart his career.

Jordan, Bo, Phelps, Bolt, etc... Messi's not even close.

Bucketrunner said:

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Who?

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Hard to imagine this is a serious question, since it would be like not knowing who Trump is.... but just in case: the GOAT soccer player who is coming to the end of his career.

AustinAg2012 said:

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Street Fighter said:

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Get Off My Lawn said:

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As far as being a capable athlete, I'll take any "Ninja Warrior" contestant over a guy who simply runs on perfectly manicured grass.

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I hope you're being sarcastic. Messi has been a bad ass since he was 6 and became a pro when he was 16.

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Yep, the lil' guy even took HGH to help kickstart his career.

Jordan, Bo, Phelps, Bolt, etc... Messi's not even close.

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You made an ass of yourself on the soccer board and now have come here to do the same?

Get over it, Messi is the GOAT. Ronaldo can't hold his jock. Even Ronaldo himself understands this now.

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Over here, that crap is mostly considering dishonorable though.

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Wrong, some people here just live a dream world and insist it isn't and hasn't been the norm.

Third Son said:

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Jr High would be way too late for soccer. Look at the NBA, they draft kids that are able to play above the rim (athletic) even if their stats are mid. You hear in college football all the time about the kid that just started playing ball their senior year in HS. You can't do that in soccer beyond rec league level.

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Matt Turner disagrees, (But, yeah, he's a goalie) Your point probably stands for outfield players.

Trying to name the best athlete is impossible. You can be an athletic freak without dominating your sport. That's why these lists are usually "Most Dominant Player" rather than "Best Athlete" because it gives you actual measurables to compare. The most dominant players would have quite a few ahead of Messi;

1. MJ
2. The Great One
3. Tiger
4. Federer
5. Phelps
6. Joe Louis
7. Maybe Messi?

It's hard to be super dominant in soccer or football because there are 10 other guys on your team and the quality of those guys directly affects your own. Messi has had a huge advantage by basically playing for the best team in the world his whole career so he is surrounded by high quality players that can give him the ball in dangerous places and occupy defenders.

torrid said:

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Without reading the article or thread, who the hell is Lionel Messi?

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Stop trying to be cool on here. It's unbecoming.

Messi should claim to be female tomorrow and then he'll be the best male and female athlete ever.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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Whirligigs said:

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If he lost then there wouldn't be any article about him.

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But he didn't. If Jordan hadn't won five rings, he wouldn't be the best basketball player ever.

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He won 6, Mister Falcon

agdoc2001 said:

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Third Son said:

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Jr High would be way too late for soccer. Look at the NBA, they draft kids that are able to play above the rim (athletic) even if their stats are mid. You hear in college football all the time about the kid that just started playing ball their senior year in HS. You can't do that in soccer beyond rec league level.

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Matt Turner disagrees, (But, yeah, he's a goalie) Your point probably stands for outfield players.

Trying to name the best athlete is impossible. You can be an athletic freak without dominating your sport. That's why these lists are usually "Most Dominant Player" rather than "Best Athlete" because it gives you actual measurables to compare. The most dominant players would have quite a few ahead of Messi;

1. MJ
2. The Great One
3. Tiger
4. Federer
5. Phelps
6. Joe Louis
7. Maybe Messi?

It's hard to be super dominant in soccer or football because there are 10 other guys on your team and the quality of those guys directly affects your own. Messi has had a huge advantage by basically playing for the best team in the world his whole career so he is surrounded by high quality players that can give him the ball in dangerous places and occupy defenders.

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Messi was a huge reason they were the best team in the world. For example, they were in the Champions League knockout stages every year Messi was there. Ever since he left, they have been knocked out twice in a row. He carried that team on his back for a long time.

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What sport requires more sheer athleticism?

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Geez, I don't know, maybe one where you have to have some hand/eye coordination, and can't walk around quite so much. Soccer fans can be a real beat down, and I say that as someone who enjoys watching some soccer. I'm not much of an NBA fan, but no one in soccer comes close to being as clutch as Jordan, and that in a sport that requires you to have great endurance and skill. Playing football and baseball at the highest level like Bo did is simply astounding. And, if you care at all about the mental aspect of sports, no position compares to playing QB in the NFL like Brady has for 20 years. Being the best soccer player at the moment doesn't, by default, make you the greatest athlete.

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So for the record, this crap pisses me off. This is exactly the reason I made fun of soccer for decades. It wasn't until I saw Messi highlights that I became a fan. I have wondered if Messi's domination (and the fact that every young player today grew up idolizing him) would change this. And it seems to me that maybe it has. I have noticed that there was a LOT less diving this WC than the last one (though I didn't watch every game). It seems to me that that young generation has finally come of age. Hopefully that continues.

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VAR is the reason diving is, finally, subsiding. The countries where they don't have it still have a problem, but doing it with VAR watching is dumb and can have some adverse consequences.

"best" is not quantifiable. It is and argumentation point.

You can quantify fastest, strongest
You can quantify (sorta) success.

So most "successful" let's talk. But every sport has had dominant players (Gretzky say hello...)

And I question "athlete" - athletic performance is measurable in time, weight, height, distance. So to call Messi the greatest "athlete" is nonsense, there are many other athletes stronger, quicker, faster.

How about "most successful soccer player"? That would work.