So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

Just do away with human cops and send robots and drones to deal with conflict.

Their is sarcasm…..my answer.

Certain parts of Fort Worth are now assured of almost no police coverage.

Silian Rail said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Silian Rail said:

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This is a real tragedy, and as pro-police as I am, you can't really just shoot people for having a gun pointed at you in the middle of the night when you're sneaking around their house without identifying yourself.

---

Was against police policy to announce yourself on an open structure/possible burglary in process call.

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I didn't see that, I said him say that he had done just that on several occasions, and that he did not follow "good police work" on this occasion.

---

But Dean was not charged with "bad policing" he was charged with murder. There's a difference.

Besides, the defense should have objected to that line of questioning as irrelevant. Sure, he and Larch had a few different options but they cannot be physically doing all of them at the same time. Just because there was another reasonable option does not automatically mean the option they chose was patently unreasonable. And that was the inference that state was trying to get the jury to make. Successfully, as it turned out.

I do not have much faith in an appeal reversing this verdict. His defense counsel dropped the ball here. They did not prep him well for cross. And I agree with Branca. I'm not sure they fully understood the Texas laws on self defense especially as it pertains to police officers. Did not hammer home on the totality of the circumstances under Graham v. Connor. Did not stress the reasonableness aspect enough.

And it was the defendant's shoes in which the jury should be asked to put themselves, not the decedent's. Again, an improper argument by the prosecution as it materially affects the impartiality of the jury and shifts the burden of proof or at least lessens it.

But ultimately what did Dean is was a misstatement of the law. Ond that defense did not object to and indeed seemed to embrace. That was that the jury had to find the decedent was engaged or about to engage in wrongfull unlawful conduct for the shooting to be justified under the self defense statute in Texas. That is not what the statute says. It says a "reasonable" perception by the defendant that such was occurring. They are allowed to wrong as long as it was "reasonable" given the "totality of the circumstances."

The interior of the house was lit, easily observable by the officers through the glass storm doors. House was wrecked, looked like it had been ransacked. Stuff all over the floor, drawers open, cabinet doors open all appearing to be consistent with a burglary in process. Was or were the perps still present? Were the residents present and in danger? How many points of ingress and egress are there on the residence? How much back-up would be needed?

From the moment Dean and Larch approached the home, made those initial observations, proceeded to see if there was a back door or open window until the shot was fired was well under two minutes. That's not very much time to do what they were trained to do under the circumstances...the totality of the circumstances.

There is no such thing as the perfect police response to a call. There is only training, procedure, muscle memory and hoping not to get killed or severely injured in the process.

This was a very bad, tragic outcome. She did nothing wrong but that's not the issue here. Had she shot first and killed either Dean or Larch or both, she would have the same claim of self defense and likely would have not even been charged.

That's how the law works. Perceptions of "justice" are not always compatible with how the law works.

aggiehawg said:

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There is no such thing as the perfect police response to a call. There is only training, procedure, muscle memory and hoping not to get killed or severely injured in the process.

This was a very bad, tragic outcome. She did nothing wrong but that's not the issue here. Had she shot first and killed either Dean or Larch or both, she would have the same claim of self defense and likely would have not even been charged.

That's how the law works. Perceptions of "justice" are not always compatible with how the law works.

---

You usually have very good posts, but this is one of yours that falls in the great category. What I bolded, should be noted by anyone wanting to examine/ discuss Use of Force incidents.

Thank you.

The law is there to try to redress injuries but it just cannot always strike the right balance. Humans are messy that way.

agsalaska said:

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So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

---

So, let me get this straight,

I get home from the airport at 2am and notice that my neighbors front door is open. I call the regular police line, not 911, and let them know that it is not an emergency but just an odd circumstance that maybe they could check on.

The dispatcher miscodes it and the arsenal is sent in. And someone dies.

Because the dispatcher coded it the way they coded it nobody is responsible?

What if that was my house? Two nights ago I accidently left my garage open. If cops showed up unannounced at the windiw at 12:30am there is a good chance I would have shot them. Or they would have shot me.

Aw shucks thats just how it goes??? Bull**** thats how it goes.

Maybe the wrong person is going to jail. I don't think so, but maybe so. But someone is 100% absolutely hand down without a doubt responsible for her killing. Maybe it's the cop. Maybe its the dispatcher. Maybe it's the dumbass that wrote the rules. But let's not pretend this is an aww shucks accident. It is absolutely not that. .

agsalaska said:

---

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

---

So, let me get this straight,

I get home from the airport at 2am and notice that my neighbors front door is open. I call the regular police line, not 911, and let them know that it is not an emergency but just an odd circumstance that maybe they could check on.

The dispatcher miscodes it and the arsenal is sent in. And someone dies.

Because the dispatcher coded it the way they coded it nobody is responsible?

What if that was my house? Two nights ago I accidently left my garage open. If cops showed up unannounced at the windiw at 12:30am there is a good chance I would have shot them. Or they would have shot me.

Aw shucks thats just how it goes??? Bull**** thats how it goes.

Maybe the wrong person is going to jail. I don't think so, but maybe so. But someone is 100% absolutely hand down without a doubt responsible for her killing. Maybe it's the cop. Maybe its the dispatcher. Maybe it's the dumbass that wrote the rules. But let's not pretend this is an aww shucks accident. It is absolutely not that. .

---

Yes. You want every cop to be clairvoyant and know that dispatch has it wrong? What can they rely on?

aggiehawg said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

---

So, let me get this straight,

I get home from the airport at 2am and notice that my neighbors front door is open. I call the regular police line, not 911, and let them know that it is not an emergency but just an odd circumstance that maybe they could check on.

The dispatcher miscodes it and the arsenal is sent in. And someone dies.

Because the dispatcher coded it the way they coded it nobody is responsible?

What if that was my house? Two nights ago I accidently left my garage open. If cops showed up unannounced at the windiw at 12:30am there is a good chance I would have shot them. Or they would have shot me.

Aw shucks thats just how it goes??? Bull**** thats how it goes.

Maybe the wrong person is going to jail. I don't think so, but maybe so. But someone is 100% absolutely hand down without a doubt responsible for her killing. Maybe it's the cop. Maybe its the dispatcher. Maybe it's the dumbass that wrote the rules. But let's not pretend this is an aww shucks accident. It is absolutely not that. .

---

Yes. You want every cop to be clairvoyant and know that dispatch has it wrong? What can they rely on?

---

That is complete nonsense.

I asked 'nobody is responsible'

And you didn't answer that. You deflected.

Answer the question. Because there is a young innocent dead woman that did absolutely nothing at all wrong. And her shooting was a result of the actions of authorities. As much as you would like to you can't just 'aww shucks terrible accident' that.

Was the cop put in a bad spot? Maybe. Possibly. Probably. But he signed up for it. He will not be the first or the last person this week to take the fall for joining an organization with rules and regs that could hang him out to dry. I have no sympathy.

You want to say 'nobody should sign up to be a cop' I would agree with that.

agsalaska said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

---

So, let me get this straight,

I get home from the airport at 2am and notice that my neighbors front door is open. I call the regular police line, not 911, and let them know that it is not an emergency but just an odd circumstance that maybe they could check on.

The dispatcher miscodes it and the arsenal is sent in. And someone dies.

Because the dispatcher coded it the way they coded it nobody is responsible?

What if that was my house? Two nights ago I accidently left my garage open. If cops showed up unannounced at the windiw at 12:30am there is a good chance I would have shot them. Or they would have shot me.

Aw shucks thats just how it goes??? Bull**** thats how it goes.

Maybe the wrong person is going to jail. I don't think so, but maybe so. But someone is 100% absolutely hand down without a doubt responsible for her killing. Maybe it's the cop. Maybe its the dispatcher. Maybe it's the dumbass that wrote the rules. But let's not pretend this is an aww shucks accident. It is absolutely not that. .

---

Yes. You want every cop to be clairvoyant and know that dispatch has it wrong? What can they rely on?

---

That is complete nonsense.

I asked 'nobody is responsible'

And you didn't answer that. You deflected.

Answer the question. Because there is a young innocent dead woman that did absolutely nothing at all wrong. And her shooting was a result of the actions of authorities. As much as you would like to you can't just 'aww shucks terrible accident' that.

Was the cop put in a bad spot? Maybe. Possibly. Probably. But he signed up for it. He will not be the first or the last person this week to take the fall for joining an organization with rules and regs that could hang him out to dry. I have no sympathy.

You want to say 'nobody should sign up to be a cop' I would agree with that.

---

It is called the law.

How it works. You are not trained in law. You are not trained in law enforcement.

So? What is your vast knowledge field?

aggiehawg said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

---

So, let me get this straight,

I get home from the airport at 2am and notice that my neighbors front door is open. I call the regular police line, not 911, and let them know that it is not an emergency but just an odd circumstance that maybe they could check on.

The dispatcher miscodes it and the arsenal is sent in. And someone dies.

Because the dispatcher coded it the way they coded it nobody is responsible?

What if that was my house? Two nights ago I accidently left my garage open. If cops showed up unannounced at the windiw at 12:30am there is a good chance I would have shot them. Or they would have shot me.

Aw shucks thats just how it goes??? Bull**** thats how it goes.

Maybe the wrong person is going to jail. I don't think so, but maybe so. But someone is 100% absolutely hand down without a doubt responsible for her killing. Maybe it's the cop. Maybe its the dispatcher. Maybe it's the dumbass that wrote the rules. But let's not pretend this is an aww shucks accident. It is absolutely not that. .

---

Yes. You want every cop to be clairvoyant and know that dispatch has it wrong? What can they rely on?

---

That is complete nonsense.

I asked 'nobody is responsible'

And you didn't answer that. You deflected.

Answer the question. Because there is a young innocent dead woman that did absolutely nothing at all wrong. And her shooting was a result of the actions of authorities. As much as you would like to you can't just 'aww shucks terrible accident' that.

Was the cop put in a bad spot? Maybe. Possibly. Probably. But he signed up for it. He will not be the first or the last person this week to take the fall for joining an organization with rules and regs that could hang him out to dry. I have no sympathy.

You want to say 'nobody should sign up to be a cop' I would agree with that.

---

It is called the law.

How it works. You are not trained in law. You are not trained in law enforcement.

So? What is your vast knowledge field?

---

You are, as usual, missing the bigger picture.

Carry on.

Just smarter and more expeienced than you.

Or would you like to try to school me on how you know the law better than Branca?

aggiehawg said:

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Just smarter and more expeienced than you.

Or would you like to try to school me on how you know the law better than Branca?

---

That is awesome.

You can't even answer a direct question.


Look I am not going to respond to you again. You keep thinking you are who you think you are. Like I said, just carry on. Enjoy having the last word.

agsalaska said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

Just smarter and more expeienced than you.

Or would you like to try to school me on how you know the law better than Branca?

---

That is awesome.

You can't even answer a direct question.


Look I am not going to respond to you again. You keep thinking you are who you think you are. Like I said, just carry on. Enjoy having the last word.

---

Too dumb to respond.

Usual for you. Do you even know who Andrew Branca is? Expert lawyer on self defense in all 50 states?

But of course you know more than he does, right.

Lol, a bunch of lawyers in a dick measuring contest up in here. Not hiring any of you. If my life is on the line, I am going with Algonquin J. Calhoun. "We not only denies the allegations, we denies the alligator." Brilliant legal mind in his day.

agsalaska said:

---

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

---

So, let me get this straight,

I get home from the airport at 2am and notice that my neighbors front door is open. I call the regular police line, not 911, and let them know that it is not an emergency but just an odd circumstance that maybe they could check on.

The dispatcher miscodes it and the arsenal is sent in. And someone dies.

Because the dispatcher coded it the way they coded it nobody is responsible?

What if that was my house? Two nights ago I accidently left my garage open. If cops showed up unannounced at the windiw at 12:30am there is a good chance I would have shot them. Or they would have shot me.

Aw shucks thats just how it goes??? Bull**** thats how it goes.

Maybe the wrong person is going to jail. I don't think so, but maybe so. But someone is 100% absolutely hand down without a doubt responsible for her killing. Maybe it's the cop. Maybe its the dispatcher. Maybe it's the dumbass that wrote the rules. But let's not pretend this is an aww shucks accident. It is absolutely not that. .

---

The cop isn't criminally responsible. The cop wasn't reckless, but maybe the dispatcher or the policy is negligent.

Nobody has discussed the city's potential negligence.

I'm sure her family will be paid.

agsalaska said:

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responsible for her killing

---

There are three levels of possible responsibility.

Intent= murder
The officer knew his actions could lead to her death and proceeded with the behavior=manslaughter
The officer/dispatcher didn't know their actions could lead to her death= civil negligence

If anything, understanding the officer was following orders, there's civil negligence here. I don't believe anyone was acting recklessly.

Silian Rail said:

---

This is a real tragedy, and as pro-police as I am, you can't really just shoot people for having a gun pointed at you in the middle of the night when you're sneaking around their house without identifying yourself.

---

This is my biggest concern on this case. I understand hawgs statement regarding department policy but (God forbid) if I'm in that scenario with wife and or children in the house that could have easily been me in that window or possibly firing on that officer.

Again, God forbid.

Seems like that policy needs to get a hard review.
If they change it to announcing before further investigation prior to opening doors, gates, entering yards etc. the Worst case scenario is needing to pursue a few burglars?

Quote:

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If anything, understanding the officer was following orders, there's civil negligence here. I don't believe anyone was acting recklessly.

---

Hence the manslaughter charge was not warranted. Not to be givene the jury as an instruction.

Prosecution did not adduce enough evidence on that point that I saw.

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Esteban du Plantier said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

So help me out here.

I thought it was a non emergency call made by a neighbor. Is that wrong?

---

Irrelevant what the neighbor said.

The dispatcher coded it as open structure, treated as silent alarm/active burglary.

---

So, let me get this straight,

I get home from the airport at 2am and notice that my neighbors front door is open. I call the regular police line, not 911, and let them know that it is not an emergency but just an odd circumstance that maybe they could check on.

The dispatcher miscodes it and the arsenal is sent in. And someone dies.

Because the dispatcher coded it the way they coded it nobody is responsible?

What if that was my house? Two nights ago I accidently left my garage open. If cops showed up unannounced at the windiw at 12:30am there is a good chance I would have shot them. Or they would have shot me.

Aw shucks thats just how it goes??? Bull**** thats how it goes.

Maybe the wrong person is going to jail. I don't think so, but maybe so. But someone is 100% absolutely hand down without a doubt responsible for her killing. Maybe it's the cop. Maybe its the dispatcher. Maybe it's the dumbass that wrote the rules. But let's not pretend this is an aww shucks accident. It is absolutely not that. .

---

The cop isn't criminally responsible. The cop wasn't reckless, but maybe the dispatcher or the policy is negligent.

Nobody has discussed the city's potential negligence.

I'm sure her family will be paid.

---

Hence most of the family anger. Not nearly as big a payoff for manslaughter as for murder. That verdict yesterday cost them several million dollars.

And as I said earlier - if I'm a cop in that part of town, let it burn. And look for something else.

Sentencing today. That judge loves that girl Ms. Ford with the prosecution team! He lights up when he talks to her. LOL

Overslept.

If this was a bench trial, would it have been a not guilty verdict?

ItsA&InotA&M said:

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If this was a bench trial, would it have been a not guilty verdict?

---

In my view, yes.

I think the only reason the judge did not issue a directed verdict at the close of the state's case in chief is due to the kid's contradictory testimony between what he said on the stand and what he said three years ago, mere hours after the incident.

Were it a bench trial, the judge would be the trier of fact and not the jury. He could then assess which version was closer to the truth. Since the kid appeared to be being coached in his testimony by a woman in the gallery that caught the judge's attention to the point he called her up, swore her in, then kicked her out of the courtroom under the rule regarding potential witnesses, he could easily have decided the kid was telling the truth three years ago that he saw his aunt raise the gun at Dean.

On the stand, the kid said she did not raise the gun. Critical piece of evidence and as the trier of fact the jury would decide which version they believed. Because of that fact question, the judge did not feel it was appropriate for him take the case away from the jury.

This is kind of a weird sentencing hearing. I assume the state will get to victim impact statements eventually and actual relevant testimony. But how someone was evaluated on a personality test done several years ago really is not that relevant, in my view.

So 18 years ago Dean made a ham-handed pass at a female fellow student? And he watched porn on a computer?

Is this a proffer?

This is crazy testimony.

schwack schwack said:

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This is crazy testimony.

---

It sure is. Can't say I have seen anything like this for a sentencing hearing. She held onto the police report she filed 18 years ago? Let's have a pyschological profile on this witness as she's a bit nutso.

wbt5845 said:

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Why would blacks start riots if a white police officer is found not guilty of murdering a black woman in her own home?

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Why would anybody start a riot? That's not how you deal with things. It's just being criminals.

So the Arlington PD has no record of the 2004 incident? This is very stupid. The judge is letting everything in whether it is relevant or not.

Quote:

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The judge is letting everything in whether it is relevant or not.

---

Is this normal?

Is he an Aggie as someone else reported?

schwack schwack said:

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Quote:

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The judge is letting everything in whether it is relevant or not.

---

Is this normal?

Is he an Aggie as someone else reported?

---

Not normal in my view.

Have no idea about the judge.

But this witness is a walking stereotype of a home schooled kid with minimum social skills.

Dean did not intend to kill a lawful occupant of the residence, but he did in fact, and intent should not relieve him of liability for his actions. It's not as though he rolled up on a gun fight or other clear disturbance. This was a quiet house, well lit in the front and dark in the back. There was no obvious threat, or even a hint of a threat from the body cam, until he suddenly yelled "show me your hands bang!" He didn't assess; he reacted in a manner that was reckless if not negligent in my view.

As a hunter, I was taught first and foremost to never shoot before I was 100% certain what I was shooting at. That should be common sense for LEOs as well. But that is not what happened here. It was an undisciplined reaction. Manslaughter is appropriate and he should go to jail. I'm not sure how many LEOs need to go to jail before the shoot first mentality is purged from all gun toting wearers of the badge, but I'm certainly willing to find out.

If the law supports this type of killing, then the law should be changed. Training should change regardless of the law. All too often these situations are entirely avoidable.

Did you watch the trial? Did you see what the inside of the house looked like?