University of Idaho - 4 college students murdered

510,628 Views | 3614 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Divining Rod
aggiehawg
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Okay. Rekieta had Andrea Burkhart on his stream last night. She's a defense attorney from Washington state and has been attending all of the BK hearings and following it very closely. She raises several questions about the evidence made public so far against him. The absence of DNA is very troubling. And she points out that there is a lot of misinformation out there.

It is long but for those interested in this case, well worth the watch. Is it possible they have the wrong guy? Or just that they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt he is the right guy?

rumble
TexasRebel
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Absence of dna?
aggiehawg
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TexasRebel said:

Absence of dna?
In his car, in his apartment there is no DNA from any of the victims according to Andrea. Nor is there any sign of cleaning agents to explain the absence of such material. Very hard to believe a guy from a very bloody crime scene with blood spatter and cast off blood from multiple stabbings would not have DNA from the victims on his person that would be transferred to his car to leave the scene.

Even if he had had his car detailed and a deep clean on the upholstery, there would still be some material left in some nook or cranny in that car. But it doesn't seem the FBI has been able to identify DNA from the victims. But the use of such cleaning agents would have been identified to explan that absence.

That's very problematic.

Another issue has to do with the source of the matching the DNA, trace DNA, found on the snap on the knife sheath, to Kohberger. That is in two parts. First, the FBI did use some genealogical sites to identify some people having some DNA characteristics in common with the trace DNA on the sheath. From there they worked on a genealogy for his family. Now, where is the chain of custody for those samples that those relatives sent in?

The second issue stems from that one but can become one that the laws of evidence will allow. And that is the verification of the DNA by a separate method of confirmation. And that is where the garbage cans at his parents' home in Pennsylvania enters the picture. The story was the FBI were watching and took some garbage and identfied DNA that was paternal to Kohberger's trace DNA found on the sheath. However, Andrea picked up on some wording in the statement of probable cause for the search warrant for that home in PA. And that wording suggests there may be a curtilage issue.

And by curtilage I mean the immediate area surrounding the home. Garbage cans out on the street to be picked up for disposal? No expectation of privacy. Garbage cans next to the house? Curtilage. It has not been abandoned and fair game yet.

One other thing are the phone pings. Sparsely populated area, very few cell towers and there are long stretches, according to her, and hour or more, wihout constant cell service, or no service at all. Two pings in particular suggest his phone was somewhere else during the timeline of when the murders happened. Could be an alternative explanation for those errant pings but we don't know what that is yet.

So that comes back to my question: do they have the wrong guy? Or do they have a problem with proving beyond a reasonable doubt that they have the right guy? My sense is the latter but we don't know yet.
zgolfz85
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wild, didn't realize this much doubt has crept in. will be interesting to see what happens from here
aggiehawg
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zgolfz85 said:

wild, didn't realize this much doubt has crept in. will be interesting to see what happens from here
Andrea emphasizes that there has been too much speculation that then gets repeated over and over again that is actually not true. For instance, there were reports that during the execution of one of the search warrants, the student IDs of one or more of the victims were found in his possession. But the return from that search does not specify the same. There are ID cards but the return from the execution of the warrant does not say that. If they were IDs of the victims, that would be specified.

And as Andrea points out, even Judge Judge (not a typo, that's his name) has complained about the amount of misinformation being disseminated by the media in thise case. He added he has never refused to have cameras in his courtroom upon media request so he's not currently inclined to ban them but if the media gets too far out of hand, he will.
MsDoubleD81
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He could have showered at the scene???? Someone asked early on if they took DNA from the shower drains.
LarryElder
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lol dude did it hes going down.
aggiehawg
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MsDoubleD81 said:

He could have showered at the scene???? Someone asked early on if they took DNA from the shower drains.
No. Timeline doesn't match and the drains have no DNA match, if they found much blood at all.

I want to be clear here, I believe Kohberger did it.

But I also want the evidence to be beyond a reasoable doubt that he did. Death penalty is in play. They have to be sure, with solid evidence to back it up.
aggiehawg
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LarryElder said:

lol dude did it hes going down.
LOL.

How long have you been licensed as an attorney?
LarryElder
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aggiehawg said:

LarryElder said:

lol dude did it hes going down.
LOL.

How long have you been licensed as an attorney?
I need a science degree to understand how gravity works?
aggiehawg
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LarryElder said:

aggiehawg said:

LarryElder said:

lol dude did it hes going down.
LOL.

How long have you been licensed as an attorney?
I need a science degree to understand how gravity works?

LOL. You need a law degree to know how rules of evidence work. And don't work when the cops take short cuts.


Let me expalin for the thousandth time. The state (prosecution for the IANAL types) has never and never will have any right to a fair trial. Because the Constitution only, again ONLY protects the accused. It is the accused who is entitled to due process.

That starts with the presumption of innocence.

I took a lot of heat on this board when I started reading the truth about George Floyd's death according to the medical reports. Chauvin did not kill him, not medically. And if he was not medically responsible for his death, how could he be legally liable?

Look. As an attorney retired, I see cases as the narratives and what evidence that is admissible that supports that narrative and what does not support it.

Prosecution in this case has some large holes they need to close. With the gag order, not much is getting out. But what I ahev seen and heard from Andrea, I have questions.
DatTallArchitect
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LarryElder said:

lol dude did it hes going down.
Like OJ?
MsDoubleD81
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Wasn't there some discussion about him having an alibi?
PlaneCrashGuy
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DannyDuberstein
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aggiehawg said:

LarryElder said:

lol dude did it hes going down.
LOL.

How long have you been licensed as an attorney?
themissinglink
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The information that has been released through the PCA and public filings don't show the case to be as open and shut as you'd expect for a gruesome quadruple murder. Individually each piece of evidence leaves room for doubt.

  • DNA: easily the strongest piece of evidence but not without holes. Only "touch DNA" on the knife sheath which could have been transferred in a number of different ways either directly or indirectly to the sheath over the course of the previous months. According to the defense filing, no victim DNA found in his car, apartment, or office which would be unusual given the nature of the crime (and no indication of a cleaning agent). There was also DNA from 2 unknown male found in the house and on a glove outside. Easy to explain as friends or acquaintances but could create doubt. Nothing has been made public indicating other DNA evidence against him in the house (though additional DNA would mean he's done for).
  • Car: The car suspected of being in the area is an extremely popular color, make, and model. Investigators struggled to identify the specific year. No license plate but in one camera angle there was no front plate indicating it was not registered in ID or WA (but allowed in PA).
  • Phone pings: probably the weakest piece of evidence. My understanding is all these really indicate is a general area (he was in Moscow). Given that Pullman and Moscow are fairly close, it's not unusual for WSU students to hang out in Moscow. Also, a student being out at 2-3am isn't unusual (and in Pullman). The pings stopping at 2-3am could have been because he went to sleep.

Collectively, I find it hard to get a conclusion that is not "guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt" but there are still plenty of questions to answer.
aggiehawg
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Quote:

Collectively, I find it hard to get a conclusion that is not "guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt" but there are still plenty of questions to answer.
What we know so far, I agree. A talented defense attorney can poke some major holes in the state's case and since it a death penalty case, even more incentive for defense counsel. From what I have seen and heard, this is a very good judge. Thoughtful, doesn't take any s*** and manages his courtroom effectively. The best the defense can hope for.

Having said that, this is a very high profile case with emotions running very high in a small community unaccustomed to such savage crimes. The last two murder trials I watched had next to zero DNA evidence connecting the defendant to the victim nor the crime scene, yet the jury convicted anyway. (Murdaugh and Zach Anderson.)
Fireman
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one safe place said:

flakrat said:

Jabin said:

TexasRebel said:

MsDoubleD81 said:

My thoughts, he had a thing for Maddie. The other 3 were unexpected and he had to cover his tracks.

Regarding the sheath, I think he had it attached to him, and it got knocked off in a struggle.


Ka-Bar sheaths are attached by belt through leather loop. There's no pulling it off without breaking something.
Something has always struck me as being fishy about that part of the prosecution's story.
He probably did NOT have it looped through the belt, maybe tucked in the waistband or shoved in his pocket, then pulled it out, holding sheath in off hand, pulled knife with primary hand, dropped, or lost sheath.
Yeah, just because it is designed to be worn on a belt doesn't mean he wore it on a belt.
If he is intending to sexually assault the victims, it's not a surprise he'd be removing his belt and the sheath.
LarryElder
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DatTallArchitect said:

LarryElder said:

lol dude did it hes going down.
Like OJ?
lol OJ case is nothing like this one.
W
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true crime never sleeps...with the arrest of the suspected Long Island serial killer yesterday
Esteban du Plantier
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bmks270
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- Researched how it feels to murder people.
- Same car.
- DNA at the crime scene.
- Erratic location data.
- Stalked victim.

The defense is going to have to be quite inventive to provide "reasonable" doubts.
DatTallArchitect
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Aggiehawg, there are reports that bk's defense team is hinting at an alibi. Is there a strategy in this if they don't actually have an alibi?
aggiehawg
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DatTallArchitect said:

Aggiehawg, there are reports that bk's defense team is hinting at an alibi. Is there a strategy in this if they don't actually have an alibi?
Idaho has very specific laws regarding any assertion of an alibi defense. That has to be revealed by the defense pre-trial and be very specific as to who, when, how, etc. The prosecution then has some time to investigate those allegations from the defense and report back to the court.

But the defense merely asking for more time in which to investigate if they have any alilbi evidence to bring forth, is not the same as suggesting that they do. They just don't know yet. They may be waiting on GPS data from the car manufacturer, for instance. Or some other surveillance videos, things like that.

Having said all of that, if BK had what we normally consider an alibi, he was on a date in a restaurant and was then over at his GF's place, that would have already come out. So my assumption is that such alibi evidence would be digital as opposed to eye-witnesses.
MsDoubleD81
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If he had an alibi would he have been sitting in jail on a death penalty case for 7 months?
Jabin
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MsDoubleD81 said:

If he had an alibi would he have been sitting in jail on a death penalty case for 7 months?
Sure, if the police and DA did not believe his alibi.
Zombie Jon Snow
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DatTallArchitect said:

Aggiehawg, there are reports that bk's defense team is hinting at an alibi. Is there a strategy in this if they don't actually have an alibi?
I'm not aggiehawg nor a lawyer at all but i heard a news report with a couple of points on this

1. saying that in Idaho (as in some states) there is some requirement to divulge an alibis defense and this could be just keeping that option open.

2. it could allow him to create an alibis without any corroborating witnesses and he could possibly testify to that alibis without be open to a full cross examination - only in reference to the alibis.

but take that for what it is worth, i do not know how legit or accurate that is

It was Good Morning America or Today my wife was watching as usual and I caught that.
torrid
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Hawg is right. If he had an alibi worth a ****, we'd have heard all about it by now.
DatTallArchitect
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Thank you. That makes a lot of sense, and now I understand why the defense hasn't come right out and declared he does in deed have an alibi.
aggiehawg
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DatTallArchitect said:

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense, and now I understand why the defense hasn't come right out and declared he does in deed have an alibi.
Remember, this is a death penalty case. The public defenders assigned to him are certified to handle DP cases and along with them comes an entire team of investigators, psychologists, forensic experts, etc. It is their job to track down every clue, no matter how small nor how questionable it may be.

And yes, the taxpayers pay for that level of defense in DP cases.
aggiehawg
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Uhmm, hold the phone for a minute. The docket in Idaho on this case is really messed up as they don't post to it on a daily basis. So a new filing hit this afternoon which is kind of weird.

Go to the one hour 31 minute mark for Emily's analysis. BK's lawyers seem to be trying to have it both ways here. And Emily agrees with me that any alibi evidence is more likely technology based than human based. Presenting alibi evidence at trial through cross examination is always okay, of course but Idaho laws are pretty specific about the pretrial disclosure if that is the intent. Splitting some hairs there.



ETA: She thinks any expert is likely to "attack" the cell phone ping evidence. Experts are required to be disclosed before trial. IOW, the defense alibi evidence is very slim to nonexistent.
PlaneCrashGuy
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As always, I appreciate your analysis an explanation. Thank you!
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
MsDoubleD81
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aggiehawg said:

Uhmm, hold the phone for a minute. The docket in Idaho on this case is really messed up as they don't post to it on a daily basis. So a new filing hit this afternoon which is kind of weird.

Go to the one hour 31 minute mark for Emily's analysis. BK's lawyers seem to be trying to have it both ways here. And Emily agrees with me that any alibi evidence is more likely technology based than human based. Presenting alibi evidence at trial through cross examination is always okay, of course but Idaho laws are pretty specific about the pretrial disclosure if that is the intent. Splitting some hairs there.



ETA: She thinks any expert is likely to "attack" the cell phone ping evidence. Experts are required to be disclosed before trial. IOW, the defense alibi evidence is very slim to nonexistent.


We need an AggieHawg channel to follow during the trial!! I always rely on your comments!
Not a Bot
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The defense filed a motion today to have the grand jury indictment thrown out. They claim distant Idaho tradition and English common law going back to 1603 requires the grand jury to find proof beyond reasonable doubt to issue an indictment. They also cite laws from the 1850s.

They are basically saying every grand jury indictment in the state of Idaho for the last century or so has been invalid.
Dacoldest
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Defense attorneys get a bad rap for defending scumbags, but pulling this kind of sheet for a psychopath is ridiculous and evil.
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