Picard said:

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Hydrogen is the answer

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Don't have enough platinum for fuel cells.

Neehau said:

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Tony Franklins Other Shoe said:

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Spindletop? What an idiot.

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Your post has been flagged for the insult. It is actually very relevant. It isnt my fault if you refuse/dont see the importance of the analog.

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Thanks for that. Just proves that you make some baseless claim, trying to rile people up to the point you finally get a reaction, then go running to the mods for "justice". Apparently I'm not the only one to see the analog.

cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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YNWA_AG said:

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wait so 29,000 litres of water is needed for 1 model s

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7660 gallons? OMG!

That's enough for over four pounds of beef!!!! Four pounds!!!

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Where did this fuzzy math come from?

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https://ksubci.org/2020/11/16/does-beef-production-really-use-that-much-water/amp/

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Lol. Green water? That's some good stuff right there.

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Do you have a point?

So hear we go. Spindletop in 1901 is equivalent to women and children working in open pit mines for pennies a day in some third world ****hole where the precious metals are processed in the worst environment possible and farmed out through probably 3-4 different middle men to finally be provided to some ESG clear conscience company?

Spindletop was worked on by men and then in subsequent years "Spindletop produced 17,420,949 barrels of oil in 1902, but only half that much in 1903 as production declined."

I just happened to drive along the Freeport McMoran copper mine in Miami AZ yesterday. That is a well regulated US mine. Google each and tell my how the footprint is analogous.

cecil77 said:

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Not that strong. Need and entirely different battery technology.

And even then the end-to-end energy efficiency isn't all that different from ICE, which still have their own improvements over the next decades.

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Given we now have at least four dedicated electric car manufacturers (Tesla, Rivian, PoleStar and Lucid) in the U.S. AND literally every other IC manufacturer has an EV offering...

• GMC Hummer
• Porsche Taycan
• Jaguar I-Pace
• Audi e-Tron
• Volvo XC
• Mazda MX
• Mercedes EQS
• Volkswagen ID.4
• Ford Mustang Mach-E
• Mini Cooper SE
• Nissan Leaf
• Kia Niero EV
• Hyundai Ioniq 5
• Chevy Bolt EUV

I'd say it absolutely qualifies as strong progress. No, it's not perfected yet. But it is strong progress when compared to 10 years ago.

Progress toward what?

More choices for the consumer

Teslag said:

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More choices for the consumer

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Then you should be very worried about the large automakers unanimous commitments to stop making/investing in ICE vehicles over the next 10 years.

GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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YNWA_AG said:

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wait so 29,000 litres of water is needed for 1 model s

---

7660 gallons? OMG!

That's enough for over four pounds of beef!!!! Four pounds!!!

---

Where did this fuzzy math come from?

---

https://ksubci.org/2020/11/16/does-beef-production-really-use-that-much-water/amp/

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Lol. Green water? That's some good stuff right there.

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Do you have a point?

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Yes. Your claim of how much water it takes to grow beef is garbage and your article you linked even admits as much.

notex said:

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Teslag said:

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More choices for the consumer

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Then you should be very worried about the large automakers unanimous commitments to stop making/investing in ICE vehicles over the next 10 years.

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I am. We need ice vehicle choices because EV's don't fit the needs of everyone

So wait, are the Elon fanboys who love him because he is going to expose Twitter on board with the EV battery hate?

David Happymountain said:

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So wait, are the Elon fanboys who love him because he is going to expose Twitter on board with the EV battery hate?

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I don't consider myself a fanboy, though I like some things Elon does (SpaceX, Starlink, Twitter fight etc), dislike others, and consider him quite a weirdo. Still, I think he's a smart guy, if quite autistic.

Something he has done which I think is great is build Tesla into a mid-size auto mfg, worth a lot of money.

I do think he ignores the ecologic/political/human costs of a transition as the globalists intend to push for the vast majority globally (at least in the developed world) to drive BEV's. In other words, a sacrifice of options/mobility/technology in favor of another for various reasons (namely control imho). Nominally, this is for 'climate change' but this is quite off topic/a long rabbit hole to discuss yet again.

It reminds me of when there was a massive push to get everyone to go 'just get the vaccine/boosters' so that we could move on from covid. But this nearly monolithic global move to BEV's (including from Daimler/Audi/Toyota/Hyundai/Ford/BMW/FCA etc.) is even more long term damaging to many millions/billions, imho.

Some of us just don't go along with a narrative on the basis of a given product/push/brand/guy. Weird, I know.

cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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YNWA_AG said:

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wait so 29,000 litres of water is needed for 1 model s

---

7660 gallons? OMG!

That's enough for over four pounds of beef!!!! Four pounds!!!

---

Where did this fuzzy math come from?

---

https://ksubci.org/2020/11/16/does-beef-production-really-use-that-much-water/amp/

---

Lol. Green water? That's some good stuff right there.

---

Do you have a point?

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Yes. Your claim of how much water it takes to grow beef is garbage and your article you linked even admits as much.

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You should try to improve your reading comprehension

nortex97 said:

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Progress toward what?

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Progress toward a market that can sustain & justify continued investment (by private companies) who want to participate in the EV market.

Without the critical mass of a viable market, there wasn't enough investment to drive innovation. I think we're at the point now (as evidenced by the number of market offerings) that investments will drive new technologies to continue improving the EV industry - also known as, 'strong progress'.

GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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YNWA_AG said:

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wait so 29,000 litres of water is needed for 1 model s

---

7660 gallons? OMG!

That's enough for over four pounds of beef!!!! Four pounds!!!

---

Where did this fuzzy math come from?

---

https://ksubci.org/2020/11/16/does-beef-production-really-use-that-much-water/amp/

---

Lol. Green water? That's some good stuff right there.

---

Do you have a point?

---

Yes. Your claim of how much water it takes to grow beef is garbage and your article you linked even admits as much.

---

You should try to improve your reading comprehension

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"Green water is rainwater that landed on the field or pasture that required no human intervention to use."

"From a water sustainability perspective, blue and gray water are more important than green water because they involve removing water from its natural cycle, and blue and gray water could be used directly by humans."

1517 gallons of the 1675 figure come from "green water."

nortex97 said:

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David Happymountain said:

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So wait, are the Elon fanboys who love him because he is going to expose Twitter on board with the EV battery hate?

---

I don't consider myself a fanboy, though I like some things Elon does (SpaceX, Starlink, Twitter fight etc), dislike others, and consider him quite a weirdo. Still, I think he's a smart guy, if quite autistic.

Something he has done which I think is great is build Tesla into a mid-size auto mfg, worth a lot of money.

I do think he ignores the ecologic/political/human costs of a transition as the globalists intend to push for the vast majority globally (at least in the developed world) to drive BEV's. In other words, a sacrifice of options/mobility/technology in favor of another for various reasons (namely control imho). Nominally, this is for 'climate change' but this is quite off topic/a long rabbit hole to discuss yet again.

It reminds me of when there was a massive push to get everyone to go 'just get the vaccine/boosters' so that we could move on from covid. But this nearly monolithic global move to BEV's (including from Daimler/Audi/Toyota/Hyundai/Ford/BMW/FCA etc.) is even more long term damaging to many millions/billions, imho.

Some of us just don't go along with a narrative on the basis of a given product/push/brand/guy. Weird, I know.

---

Interesting perspective. A couple distinctions worth making:

1) While I appreciate the concern for, "ecologic/political/human costs of a transition" I don't think the EV transition is unique in this regard. If other historical technology transitions have effectively prioritized these aspects, I'd enjoy reading about how they accomplished it (and still succeeded).

2) Your example of vaccines/boosters is apples to oranges. With vaccines/boosters, this was driven from our government - mandated in fact. There was no choice. Governments - Federal, State & Local - REQUIRED the vaccines/boosters. EVs have not been mandated. The public is simply voting with their dollars - as it should be. So while both examples do have a 'massive push' as you've characterized it, one was Government driven (REQUIRED) the other is due to legitimate market demand.

Good discussion. I appreciate your perspective nortex97.

cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

cevans_40 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

YNWA_AG said:

---

wait so 29,000 litres of water is needed for 1 model s

---

7660 gallons? OMG!

That's enough for over four pounds of beef!!!! Four pounds!!!

---

Where did this fuzzy math come from?

---

https://ksubci.org/2020/11/16/does-beef-production-really-use-that-much-water/amp/

---

Lol. Green water? That's some good stuff right there.

---

Do you have a point?

---

Yes. Your claim of how much water it takes to grow beef is garbage and your article you linked even admits as much.

---

You should try to improve your reading comprehension

---

"Green water is rainwater that landed on the field or pasture that required no human intervention to use."

"From a water sustainability perspective, blue and gray water are more important than green water because they involve removing water from its natural cycle, and blue and gray water could be used directly by humans."

1517 gallons of the 1675 figure come from "green water."

---

Correct. And if most beef in the US was grass fed that would be more important. But it's not, and using grain that could have been used for something else means that water matters, just like the source of water for lithium production matters.

Going back to the original point, it's pretty silly to be upset about the calculation that a Tesla requires 7600 gallons of water while enjoying beef like most of us do that requires 1600 gallons per pound. Hope that clears it up.

GAC06 said:

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cevans_40 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

cevans_40 said:

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GAC06 said:

---

cevans_40 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

cevans_40 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

YNWA_AG said:

---

wait so 29,000 litres of water is needed for 1 model s

---

7660 gallons? OMG!

That's enough for over four pounds of beef!!!! Four pounds!!!

---

Where did this fuzzy math come from?

---

https://ksubci.org/2020/11/16/does-beef-production-really-use-that-much-water/amp/

---

Lol. Green water? That's some good stuff right there.

---

Do you have a point?

---

Yes. Your claim of how much water it takes to grow beef is garbage and your article you linked even admits as much.

---

You should try to improve your reading comprehension

---

"Green water is rainwater that landed on the field or pasture that required no human intervention to use."

"From a water sustainability perspective, blue and gray water are more important than green water because they involve removing water from its natural cycle, and blue and gray water could be used directly by humans."

1517 gallons of the 1675 figure come from "green water."

---

Correct. And if most beef in the US was grass fed that would be more important. But it's not, and using grain that could have been used for something else means that water matters, just like the source of water for lithium production matters.

Going back to the original point, it's pretty silly to be upset about the calculation that a Tesla requires 7600 gallons of water while enjoying beef like most of us do that requires 1600 gallons per pound. Hope that clears it up.

---

You are talking about water that is not taken out of the water cycle vs water that is. 2 completely different things. Hope that clears it up.

Otherwise continue arguing apples vs rocks

Just covered that my dude

GAC06 said:

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Just covered that my dude

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Good. So now you understand that the only figure that really matters is that beef requires about 158 gals/lb to produce?

Teslag said:

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Everything west of 281 is a ****hole anyway so mine away.

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I've my guesses where you might live but would appreciate confirmation from you.

No, because land dedicated to growing grain for beef production matters. Again.

GAC06 said:

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No, because land dedicated to growing grain for beef production matters. Again.

---

So you don't understand.

Good talk.

Even the beef advocacy group I linked doesn't attempt to claim only two types of water "really matter".

CSTXAg92 said:

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nortex97 said:

---

David Happymountain said:

---

So wait, are the Elon fanboys who love him because he is going to expose Twitter on board with the EV battery hate?

---

I don't consider myself a fanboy, though I like some things Elon does (SpaceX, Starlink, Twitter fight etc), dislike others, and consider him quite a weirdo. Still, I think he's a smart guy, if quite autistic.

Something he has done which I think is great is build Tesla into a mid-size auto mfg, worth a lot of money.

I do think he ignores the ecologic/political/human costs of a transition as the globalists intend to push for the vast majority globally (at least in the developed world) to drive BEV's. In other words, a sacrifice of options/mobility/technology in favor of another for various reasons (namely control imho). Nominally, this is for 'climate change' but this is quite off topic/a long rabbit hole to discuss yet again.

It reminds me of when there was a massive push to get everyone to go 'just get the vaccine/boosters' so that we could move on from covid. But this nearly monolithic global move to BEV's (including from Daimler/Audi/Toyota/Hyundai/Ford/BMW/FCA etc.) is even more long term damaging to many millions/billions, imho.

Some of us just don't go along with a narrative on the basis of a given product/push/brand/guy. Weird, I know.

---

Interesting perspective. A couple distinctions worth making:

1) While I appreciate the concern for, "ecologic/political/human costs of a transition" I don't think the EV transition is unique in this regard. If other historical technology transitions have effectively prioritized these aspects, I'd enjoy reading about how they accomplished it (and still succeeded).

2) Your example of vaccines/boosters is apples to oranges. With vaccines/boosters, this was driven from our government - mandated in fact. There was no choice. Governments - Federal, State & Local - REQUIRED the vaccines/boosters. EVs have not been mandated. The public is simply voting with their dollars - as it should be. So while both examples do have a 'massive push' as you've characterized it, one was Government driven (REQUIRED) the other is due to legitimate market demand.

Good discussion. I appreciate your perspective nortex97.

---

1. Really, there's no comparison of a transportation shift such as this, in terms of it's impact. Just going to Biden's goal for the US for 2030 we'd need 10 times the precious metals we have/use today. The global industrial economy today, is vastly larger/more impactful than when for instance steam power was adapted (or rail, or cars). It takes a willful refusal to research the matter to realize the amount of said minerals/metals in a BEV battery is tremendous, and the extraction and refinement of these products is a dirty, energy intensive business.

2. Fundamentally, you perceive this to be driven by the market, which is contra what the politics/policies say, including of Democrats. Yes, many countries have implemented dates when ICE vehicles will no longer be allowed to be sold. Even using a leftist search engine like google, I bet you can find plenty of information about such mandates which are becoming more and more prevalent. As with vaccines, mandates or prohibitions about what can be sold/done are implemented when the government is forcing actions people don't want to take on their own. The US, and other countries will at some point reconsider various such mandates for EV's, I believe.

GAC06 said:

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Even the beef advocacy group I linked doesn't attempt to claim only two types of water "really matter".

---

Directly from your source

"From a water sustainability perspective, blue and gray water are more important than green water because they involve removing water from its natural cycle, and blue and gray water could be used directly by humans."

More important. That's true. It's not true that they are the only gallons that matter. Again.

GAC06 said:

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More important. That's true. It's not true that they are the only gallons that matter. Again.

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A great deal more important. Like exponentially more important.

Yet you attempted to argue that they are equivalent in your original claim.

Even when faced with the cold, hard reality, progressives can't let go of their position.

Feelz over facts.

Show me where I said they're equivalent. I didn't.

They all count in one way or another and the result is 1600-1700 gallons per pound of beef produced that could have gone to other uses.

GAC06 said:

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Show me where I said they're equivalent. I didn't.

They all count in one way or another and the result is 1600-1700 gallons per pound of beef produced that could have gone to other uses.

---

You are doing it again

Stating facts? Yeah it's like kryptonite

There is this though...

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a37029490/gm-will-suck-lithium-from-the-salton-sea-to-make-batteries/