2.2 million litres of water to produce 1 ton of lithium-EVs are doomed

12,420 Views | 172 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by rab79
Houston Lee
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Electric Vehicles as a global solution to Oil & Gas vehicles will be a major failure.

The kicker to the article is that we don't have enough lithium and cobalt to keep up with future demand of those kind of batteries. Plus, extracting those materials are super harmful to the environment and use massive amounts of water.

So, what the heck are we doing?.

https://www-euronews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.euronews.com/green/amp/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

In pictures: South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of our electric future

"Lithium Fields"


Quote:

Lithium represents a route out of our reliance on fossil fuel production. As the lightest known metal on the planet, it is now widely used in electric devices from mobile phones and laptops, to cars and aircraft.

Lithium-ion batteries are most famous for powering electric vehicles, which are set to account for up to 60 per cent of new car sales by 2030. The battery of a Tesla Model S, for example, uses around 12 kg of lithium.

These batteries are the key to lightweight, rechargeable power. As it stands, demand for lithium is unprecedented and many say it is crucial in order to transition to renewables.

However, this doesn't come without a cost - mining the chemical element can be harmful to the environment.

Quote:

Lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination.

AND HERE WE GO MESSING AROUND WITH WATER

Quote:

The production of lithium through evaporation ponds uses a lot of water - around 21 million litres per day. Approximately 2.2 million litres of water is needed to produce one ton of lithium.

"The extraction of lithium has caused water-related conflicts with different communities, such as the community of Toconao in the north of Chile," the FoE report specifies.

Quote:

Lithium mining has become particularly controversial recently in Portugal, with the municipality of Pinhel now preparing to file an injunction to stop the exploration. Portuguese residents have continuously rallied against the rare metal's mining, citing huge environmental ramifications. But the government has given the green light to the extraction of the "white gold" in six different regions.

95 per cent of the local population has rejected these plans, despite the mining company's promises that the ore's exploitation will create around 800 jobs for locals.
We currently DONT have a viable alternative for batteries

Quote:

Researchers like Yushin are working on new battery alternatives that would replace lithium and cobalt (another harmful metal) with less toxic and more easily accessible materials. As reserves of lithium and cobalt will not meet future demand, suggested elements to focus on instead are iron and silicon.


Unlike lithium-ion batteries, iron flow batteries are also cheaper to manufacture, renewable energy veteran Rich Hossfeld told Bloomberg recently, in an article entitled 'Iron battery breakthrough could eat lithium's lunch'.

"We call on materials scientists, engineers and funding agencies to prioritise the research and development of electrodes based on abundant elements," maintains Yushin.

"Otherwise, the roll-out of electric cars will stall within a decade."
As reserves of lithium and cobalt will not meet future demand, suggested elements to focus on instead are iron and silicon.

"Otherwise, the roll-out of electric cars will stall within a decade."

REPEAT

As reserves of lithium and cobalt will not meet future demand, suggested elements to focus on instead are iron and silicon.

"Otherwise, the roll-out of electric cars will stall within a decade."
Picard
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Hydrogen is the answer


fixer
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Good info.

Thanks for posting.
Owlagdad
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And democrats will sell on the lithium run up and leave everyone else holding the bag as usual. Ford will tank and ask for bailout, F150s with batteries will fill junkyards, leading to democrats investing in their disposal- somewhere out west or in south.
Reno Hightower
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The growing dependence on 'rare earth minerals' is and has been a fools errand.
IDaggie06
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Picard said:

Hydrogen is the answer





A combination of gas, diesel, hydrogen, and electric vehicles should be the answer, and all done through capitalism, not subsidies or laws.
BuddysBud
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IDaggie06 said:

Picard said:

Hydrogen is the answer




A combination of gas, diesel, hydrogen, and electric vehicles should be the answer, and all done through capitalism, not subsidies or laws.


Use them all without government interference and let the best energy source win.

In a free market, there is a good possibility that a new cleaner, more efficient form of energy might be invented.
MouthBQ98
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This has been obvious for years but is being ignored because it counters the political narratives of the left, like most factual data.
nortex97
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Picard said:

Hydrogen is the answer
Hydrogen is a terrible fuel. It's transportation costs, energy required to produce it etc. are all very poor. Canyon and goatchze did a good job explaining it on this thread.

Quote:

Electricity is the worst way to store energy. Hydrogen is second.

A PEM electrolysis unit will give you about 20 kg of H2 per MWh. So at cheap electric prices, it theoretically could compete. But the devil is in the details.

Those pushing the H2 agenda will often brag about its energy density. It is true, that H2 is very energy dense on a mass basis. 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of H2 contains approximately the energy of 1 gallon (~8 lbs) of gasoline. Looks good, right?

But when it comes to transportation fuels and the infrastructure to move the fuels around, mass doesn't matter, volume does. This is true for storage tanks, pipelines, pumps, compressors, etc. And that is where H2 is a big loser.

At 1000psig of pressure, that 1 kg of H2 takes up almost 50 gallons of space. Even at 10,000psig, it is still going to occupy 7 gallons of space.

So, you can't compress your way to the volume energy density of gasoline (and compressing H2 is very inefficient/expensive), so you liquefy it, right? That's what some propose.

Well, liquefaction has its own challenges. The main one, of course, is how cold you have to get. We're talking 21K to liquefy H2. If you're not familiar with Kelvin, 21K equals -422F. Oh, and even when liquefied, that 1 kg of H2 is still going to occupy over 3 gallons of space.
Red Red Wine
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Look up this one:

Hydrogen Paste




I had never heard of it until my boss at work mentioned it. That's an interesting fuel concept.
nortex97
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Interesting, and based on 20 seconds of searching it looks like it is being promoted as a way to power very small vehicles like scooters (without expensive batteries etc).

I suspect using water with a plunger to drive the paste to...then become usable hydrogen in a vehicle might not be ideal as a primary fuel source, leading to maintenance issues and I am not sure on the cost to create the magnesium-hydrogen paste. In short, it's interesting, but I don't think it's a short cut to a 'free ride' solving some/all of the hydrogen challenges (storable at room temp is nice), yet I am happy to learn otherwise if I'm wrong.
Red Red Wine
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I just thought it was cool technology that I did not know about.

There is going to be some revolution in "fuels" in the near future and my guess is even the guys who create don't know what it is yet!!!

Funky Winkerbean
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Picard said:

Hydrogen is the answer



Or stop believing the burning of fossil fuels will set the earth ablaze.
Whirligigs
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Yup, combustion engines and fossil fuels - once again - are not problems needing solving right now.
IslanderAg04
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https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2022/07/26/connecticut-transit-replaces-electric-bus-fleet-with-diesels-following-massive-battery-fire/
Red Red Wine
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How many ICE vehicles just sitting in your garage or parked on the street just spontaneously combust???

Oh, yeah, that's right - ZERO!!!


At some point though the solid state lithium batteries will be made viable and I think the battery burnings will subside. I think.

Problem with batteries is once they start there is NOTHING you can do to put it out. Maybe EV makers should look to some type of fire warning system that alerts the owner that his/her car is about to go up in flames. Monitor battery temps and hot spots so folks might have time to move the vehicle to a safer "burn to the ground" location!
WHOOP!'91
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Owlagdad said:

And democrats will sell on the lithium run up and leave everyone else holding the bag as usual. Ford will tank and ask for bailout, F150s with batteries will fill junkyards, leading to democrats investing in their disposal- somewhere out west or in south.
I think you meant to say Government Motors, who are no strangers to the bail-out or Marxist government take-over.
zagman
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IDaggie06 said:

Picard said:

Hydrogen is the answer





A combination of gas, diesel, hydrogen, and electric vehicles should be the answer, and all done through capitalism, not subsidies or laws.


We had that. Gas and diesel were the only ones the free market chose.
Full Speed Ahead - Fire At Will - Gig'em

"I have never enjoyed any position more than being president of Texas A&M University." Robert Gates 11/08/06
Scruffy
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Red Red Wine said:

How many ICE vehicles just sitting in your garage or parked on the street just spontaneously combust???

Oh, yeah, that's right - ZERO!!!


At some point though the solid state lithium batteries will be made viable and I think the battery burnings will subside. I think.

Problem with batteries is once they start there is NOTHING you can do to put it out. Maybe EV makers should look to some type of fire warning system that alerts the owner that his/her car is about to go up in flames. Monitor battery temps and hot spots so folks might have time to move the vehicle to a safer "burn to the ground" location!

Dodge and Ford wish that were true.
TexAgs91
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Remember what the actual goal is...

Quote:

Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of the U.N.'s Framework Convention on Climate Change, admitted that the goal is not to save the world from ecological calamity but to destroy capitalism. "This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution," she said
"Freedom is never more than one election away from extinction"
Fight! Fight! Fight!
lotoarmy
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Red Red Wine said:

How many ICE vehicles just sitting in your garage or parked on the street just spontaneously combust???

Oh, yeah, that's right - ZERO!!!


At some point though the solid state lithium batteries will be made viable and I think the battery burnings will subside. I think.

Problem with batteries is once they start there is NOTHING you can do to put it out. Maybe EV makers should look to some type of fire warning system that alerts the owner that his/her car is about to go up in flames. Monitor battery temps and hot spots so folks might have time to move the vehicle to a safer "burn to the ground" location!
I was in the airport in Stockholm, Sweden, last week. As is often the case, a car was on display for advertising purposes. I have seen this type of advertising at many airports over the years. However, this is the first time I ever saw a fire extinguisher sitting, on the ready, next to it.

Yep, you guessed it, it was an electric vehicle!

Made me want to buy one and park it in my garage under my bedroom.
Last of the Old Army
WHOOP!'91
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lotoarmy said:

Red Red Wine said:

How many ICE vehicles just sitting in your garage or parked on the street just spontaneously combust???

Oh, yeah, that's right - ZERO!!!


At some point though the solid state lithium batteries will be made viable and I think the battery burnings will subside. I think.

Problem with batteries is once they start there is NOTHING you can do to put it out. Maybe EV makers should look to some type of fire warning system that alerts the owner that his/her car is about to go up in flames. Monitor battery temps and hot spots so folks might have time to move the vehicle to a safer "burn to the ground" location!
I was in the airport in Stockholm, Sweden, last week. As is often the case, a car was on display for advertising purposes. I have seen this type of advertising at many airports over the years. However, this is the first time I ever saw a fire extinguisher sitting, on the ready, next to it.

Yep, you guessed it, it was an electric vehicle!

Made me want to buy one and park it in my garage under my bedroom.
I wonder if the fire extinguisher was rated for metal fires. It would hilarious if it was for wood, paper or liquid flammables.
Red Red Wine
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It's the batteries!
bmks270
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I coined the term peak lithium here a few years ago.

I see we are nearing peak lithium.
exp
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Humans are really, really bad at predicting peak anything.

For example, you'd think we're approaching peak stupidity as a society, but we keep topping ourselves.

Screw it - just give me my cheetos and Netflix. Elon got this.
Esteban du Plantier
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Stuff sometimes requires a lot of water.

None of you guys will all of the sudden start complaining about hamburgers when I tell you it takes almost 2000 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef.
Bill Clinternet
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This is oil company lobby propaganda.

"I am neither an Athenian nor a Greek, but a citizen of the world"-Plato, attributed to Socrates, Theaetetus-
exp
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Esteban du Plantier said:

Stuff sometimes requires a lot of water.

None of you guys will all of the sudden start complaining about hamburgers when I tell you it takes almost 2000 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef.
Is this claim based on emotion or facts? I only consider emotional based arguments.
SeMgCo87
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David Wallace said:

Electric Vehicles as a global solution to Oil & Gas vehicles will be a major failure.

The kicker to the article is that we don't have enough lithium and cobalt to keep up with future demand of those kind of batteries. Plus, extracting those materials are super harmful to the environment and use massive amounts of water.

So, what the heck are we doing?.

https://www-euronews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.euronews.com/green/amp/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

In pictures: South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of our electric future

"Lithium Fields"


Quote:

Lithium represents a route out of our reliance on fossil fuel production. As the lightest known metal on the planet, it is now widely used in electric devices from mobile phones and laptops, to cars and aircraft.

Lithium-ion batteries are most famous for powering electric vehicles, which are set to account for up to 60 per cent of new car sales by 2030. The battery of a Tesla Model S, for example, uses around 12 kg of lithium.

These batteries are the key to lightweight, rechargeable power. As it stands, demand for lithium is unprecedented and many say it is crucial in order to transition to renewables.

However, this doesn't come without a cost - mining the chemical element can be harmful to the environment.

Quote:

Lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination.

AND HERE WE GO MESSING AROUND WITH WATER

Quote:

The production of lithium through evaporation ponds uses a lot of water - around 21 million litres per day. Approximately 2.2 million litres of water is needed to produce one ton of lithium.

"The extraction of lithium has caused water-related conflicts with different communities, such as the community of Toconao in the north of Chile," the FoE report specifies.

Quote:

Lithium mining has become particularly controversial recently in Portugal, with the municipality of Pinhel now preparing to file an injunction to stop the exploration. Portuguese residents have continuously rallied against the rare metal's mining, citing huge environmental ramifications. But the government has given the green light to the extraction of the "white gold" in six different regions.

95 per cent of the local population has rejected these plans, despite the mining company's promises that the ore's exploitation will create around 800 jobs for locals.
We currently DONT have a viable alternative for batteries

Quote:

Researchers like Yushin are working on new battery alternatives that would replace lithium and cobalt (another harmful metal) with less toxic and more easily accessible materials. As reserves of lithium and cobalt will not meet future demand, suggested elements to focus on instead are iron and silicon.


Unlike lithium-ion batteries, iron flow batteries are also cheaper to manufacture, renewable energy veteran Rich Hossfeld told Bloomberg recently, in an article entitled 'Iron battery breakthrough could eat lithium's lunch'.

"We call on materials scientists, engineers and funding agencies to prioritise the research and development of electrodes based on abundant elements," maintains Yushin.

"Otherwise, the roll-out of electric cars will stall within a decade."
As reserves of lithium and cobalt will not meet future demand, suggested elements to focus on instead are iron and silicon.

"Otherwise, the roll-out of electric cars will stall within a decade."

REPEAT

As reserves of lithium and cobalt will not meet future demand, suggested elements to focus on instead are iron and silicon.

"Otherwise, the roll-out of electric cars will stall within a decade."

And the water, post-processing, is only useable for desertification of fertile agricultural land...of course, if we can reduce global population to, ohhhh, say 500,000,000? Yeah, that'll work...

Who will step up and be first, comrade?

It reminds me of Noah's Ark...flood the world for 40 days and nights, wipe out all animals and humans except for Noah's brood, then start over...

Hence why the Ark had a drawing room for flies, all 6,000,000 of them...except this time it may be crickets...
B-1 83
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Reno Hightower said:

The growing dependence on 'rare earth minerals' is and has been a fools errand.
And who has an almost corner on the sources?

Our (and everybody's) friends the ChiComs!
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
BuddysBud
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Neehau said:

This is oil company lobby propaganda.




With major oil companies 100% in with EGS, and oil companies doing a lot of "renewables" research, why would they need to publish anti-lithium propaganda?
Tony Franklins Other Shoe
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WHOOP!'91 said:

lotoarmy said:

Red Red Wine said:

How many ICE vehicles just sitting in your garage or parked on the street just spontaneously combust???

Oh, yeah, that's right - ZERO!!!


At some point though the solid state lithium batteries will be made viable and I think the battery burnings will subside. I think.

Problem with batteries is once they start there is NOTHING you can do to put it out. Maybe EV makers should look to some type of fire warning system that alerts the owner that his/her car is about to go up in flames. Monitor battery temps and hot spots so folks might have time to move the vehicle to a safer "burn to the ground" location!
I was in the airport in Stockholm, Sweden, last week. As is often the case, a car was on display for advertising purposes. I have seen this type of advertising at many airports over the years. However, this is the first time I ever saw a fire extinguisher sitting, on the ready, next to it.

Yep, you guessed it, it was an electric vehicle!

Made me want to buy one and park it in my garage under my bedroom.
I wonder if the fire extinguisher was rated for metal fires. It would hilarious if it was for wood, paper or liquid flammables.
You could almost guarantee it was the standard extinguisher. Someone likely said something about "what happens if" and so they throw one out there to be proactive with no knowledge of source material.

Person Not Capable of Pregnancy
Teslag
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Red Red Wine said:

How many ICE vehicles just sitting in your garage or parked on the street just spontaneously combust???

Oh, yeah, that's right - ZERO!!!

https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/03/2021-ram-truck-owner-encouraged-to-park-vehicle-outside-due-to-fire-risk-recall-announced.html

Quote:


Fiat Chrysler says it will recall thousands of 2021 model year heavy-duty diesel Ram trucks over concerns of a possible fire hazard and are warning owners to park their trucks outside. According to the Associated Press, the company says pickup and chassis cab trucks have heater electrical relays that can short, which can cause it to overheat and possibly cause a fire.

The issue can even happened when the engine is turned off, leading the company to tell owners of impacted trucks to leave the truck outside.
LostInLA07
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Hydrogen is not a practical transportation fuel. I think it does have a role to play in power generation though as part of fuel diversification. CCGTs can be designed with the ability to co-fire natural gas and hydrogen. That would allow a generator to utilize hydrogen as part of its fuel supply when economics support it, or even in the event of some sort of supply disruption.

I doubt hydrogen could compete with natural gas at last year's pricing but maybe it's getting close at current pricing?
aggie93
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BuddysBud said:

IDaggie06 said:

Picard said:

Hydrogen is the answer




A combination of gas, diesel, hydrogen, and electric vehicles should be the answer, and all done through capitalism, not subsidies or laws.


Use them all without government interference and let the best energy source win.

In a free market, there is a good possibility that a new cleaner, more efficient form of energy might be invented.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
 
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