Wow.

E bike battery pic.twitter.com/6t6Nr16X3H

— Ted Nugent (@TedNugent) July 27, 2024

Caution, graphic. E-bike batteries also should not be charged in living quarters/domiciles etc.

He's still alive at the end. You can see him moving a bit. Absolutely brutal.

https://fortune.com/2024/04/01/hyundai-kia-recalled-million-vehicles-warning-park-outdoors-risk-catching-fire-most-still-unrepaired/

ICE vehicles. Oops.

Teslag said:

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https://fortune.com/2024/04/01/hyundai-kia-recalled-million-vehicles-warning-park-outdoors-risk-catching-fire-most-still-unrepaired/

ICE vehicles. Oops.

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Hybrids with lithium ion batteries/attendant cooling systems pose the same risk as BEV's. The risk is disproportionate as to the danger of the fire (once started), as a consequence. The presence of an additional power source for the vehicle (ICE), doesn't change the nature/degree of the risk, but for the decreased size of the lithium battery.

Happy to help, as always, I think this point has been posted several dozen times in this thread.

The vehicles in my article aren't hybrids. Just good old fashioned ICE fire bombs you shouldn't park inside.

Even ICE Ford Expedition models had notices to park outside of a garage due to battery fires. It doesn't take much to burn your house down.

Teslag said:

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The vehicles in my article aren't hybrids. Just good old fashioned ICE fire bombs you shouldn't park inside.

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Ok sorry, I don't have a Forbes subscription and assumed you were posting something responsively to what I posted. I didn't realize it was irrelevant to my point.

Edit: Fortune. Whatever.

Just because something doesn't validate your claims doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

hph6203 said:

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Just because something doesn't validate your claims doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

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But it is in this case (and the poster who replied to me was entirely unclear what he was posting, as usual). The class of danger posed by an EV fire is entirely different than one from an ICE vehicle (which would necessarily be burnt out within an hour/not needing 30K gallons of water…)

BEV and hybrid vehicle fires are again entirely different in what is required to extinguish them, and as well how they break out etc. That, again, is the point I was making, and why I am concerned neighbors would have one in a nearby garage...

hph6203 said:

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Just because something doesn't validate your claims doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

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EV fires literally create their own oxygen as they burn. Stop pretending they're the same

For those saying they don't want neighbors parking cars in their garage because it might catch your house on fire, do you also tell your neighbors you don't want them cooking in their house since that is the cause of 40% of all house fires.

You better not let them heat their houses either because that is almost 20% of house fires and definitely don't let them have electricity because that is over 15% of house fires. Once a house is on fire from any cause, it is a similar risk to spread to your house as a couple of my friends found out.

In other words, you guys are trying to make fires from cars into the boogyman and this great danger when the real danger is right in front of you but you ignore it.

https://ecosenvironmental.com/top-7-causes-of-house-fires/

Kansas Kid said:

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For those saying they don't want neighbors parking cars in their garage because it might catch your house on fire, do you also tell your neighbors you don't want them cooking in their house since that is the cause of 40% of all house fires.

You better not let them heat their houses either because that is almost 20% of house fires and definitely don't let them have electricity because that is over 15% of house fires. Once a house is on fire from any cause, it is a similar risk to spread to your house as a couple of my friends found out.

In other words, you guys are trying to make fires from cars into the boogyman and this great danger when the real danger is right in front of you but you ignore it.

https://ecosenvironmental.com/top-7-causes-of-house-fires/

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Equivalency doesn't really work as a convincing argument for your side on this. Li-ion fires are essentially impossible to rapidly extinguish for most fire departments and often have to burn out on their own. They are in no ways equivalent to your examples.

It's an odd hill to die on. I would think we could all agree Li-ion fires are terrible based on the evidence.

What percentage of EV's catch fire? You can round to the nearest thousandths place

Teslag said:

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What percentage of EV's catch fire? You can round to the nearest thousandths place

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Enough that it's a concern.

How can it be a concern if you haven't analyzed the numbers? Surely you've done so correct?

techno-ag said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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For those saying they don't want neighbors parking cars in their garage because it might catch your house on fire, do you also tell your neighbors you don't want them cooking in their house since that is the cause of 40% of all house fires.

You better not let them heat their houses either because that is almost 20% of house fires and definitely don't let them have electricity because that is over 15% of house fires. Once a house is on fire from any cause, it is a similar risk to spread to your house as a couple of my friends found out.

In other words, you guys are trying to make fires from cars into the boogyman and this great danger when the real danger is right in front of you but you ignore it.

https://ecosenvironmental.com/top-7-causes-of-house-fires/

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Equivalency doesn't really work as a convincing argument for your side on this. Li-ion fires are essentially impossible to rapidly extinguish for most fire departments and often have to burn out on their own. They are in no ways equivalent to your examples.

It's an odd hill to die on. I would think we could all agree Li-ion fires are terrible based on the evidence.

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They are bad but so are a number of other fires and once the house fire spreads, they frequently have to let it burn out no matter what the original cause was. When any car catches fire in a garage, it is likely to spread to the rest of the house because most people don't have fire alarms in their garage and the area is almost always unintended.

If you are so concerned about Li-ion fires, do you charge your phone and laptop outside since they are way more likely to catch fire because they lack smart charging systems .

This concern about EV fires, especially from a neighbors house, is like people that are scared of flying so they won't get on a plane even though it is way safer than driving a car to the same destination.

Quote:

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If you are so concerned about Li-ion fires, do you charge your phone and laptop outside since they are way more likely to catch fire because they lack smart charging systems .

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I've learned that these and power tool batteries never count.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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If you are so concerned about Li-ion fires, do you charge your phone and laptop outside since they are way more likely to catch fire because they lack smart charging systems .

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I've learned that these and power tool batteries never count.

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It's ok to support the CCP in the case of other electronics and tools.

Teslag said:

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How can it be a concern if you haven't analyzed the numbers? Surely you've done so correct?

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Aw contra air, I can be concerned based on what I know.

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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For those saying they don't want neighbors parking cars in their garage because it might catch your house on fire, do you also tell your neighbors you don't want them cooking in their house since that is the cause of 40% of all house fires.

You better not let them heat their houses either because that is almost 20% of house fires and definitely don't let them have electricity because that is over 15% of house fires. Once a house is on fire from any cause, it is a similar risk to spread to your house as a couple of my friends found out.

In other words, you guys are trying to make fires from cars into the boogyman and this great danger when the real danger is right in front of you but you ignore it.

https://ecosenvironmental.com/top-7-causes-of-house-fires/

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Equivalency doesn't really work as a convincing argument for your side on this. Li-ion fires are essentially impossible to rapidly extinguish for most fire departments and often have to burn out on their own. They are in no ways equivalent to your examples.

It's an odd hill to die on. I would think we could all agree Li-ion fires are terrible based on the evidence.

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They are bad but so are a number of other fires and once the house fire spreads, they frequently have to let it burn out no matter what the original cause was. When any car catches fire in a garage, it is likely to spread to the rest of the house because most people don't have fire alarms in their garage and the area is almost always unintended.

If you are so concerned about Li-ion fires, do you charge your phone and laptop outside since they are way more likely to catch fire because they lack smart charging systems .

This concern about EV fires, especially from a neighbors house, is like people that are scared of flying so they won't get on a plane even though it is way safer than driving a car to the same destination.

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Smaller batteries are a different kettle of fish, and the good ones are heavily regulated. For an example of cheap Chi-com ones, see the elevator fire above.

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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For those saying they don't want neighbors parking cars in their garage because it might catch your house on fire, do you also tell your neighbors you don't want them cooking in their house since that is the cause of 40% of all house fires.

You better not let them heat their houses either because that is almost 20% of house fires and definitely don't let them have electricity because that is over 15% of house fires. Once a house is on fire from any cause, it is a similar risk to spread to your house as a couple of my friends found out.

In other words, you guys are trying to make fires from cars into the boogyman and this great danger when the real danger is right in front of you but you ignore it.

https://ecosenvironmental.com/top-7-causes-of-house-fires/

---

Equivalency doesn't really work as a convincing argument for your side on this. Li-ion fires are essentially impossible to rapidly extinguish for most fire departments and often have to burn out on their own. They are in no ways equivalent to your examples.

It's an odd hill to die on. I would think we could all agree Li-ion fires are terrible based on the evidence.

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They are bad but so are a number of other fires and once the house fire spreads, they frequently have to let it burn out no matter what the original cause was. When any car catches fire in a garage, it is likely to spread to the rest of the house because most people don't have fire alarms in their garage and the area is almost always unintended.

If you are so concerned about Li-ion fires, do you charge your phone and laptop outside since they are way more likely to catch fire because they lack smart charging systems .

This concern about EV fires, especially from a neighbors house, is like people that are scared of flying so they won't get on a plane even though it is way safer than driving a car to the same destination.

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Good lord….no house has a fire alarm in the garage UNLESS it is attached. I've seen some. Phone and laptop batteries are way different in scope, but you know that.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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hph6203 said:

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Just because something doesn't validate your claims doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

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EV fires literally create their own oxygen as they burn. Stop pretending they're the same

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They are not the same, but they are differentiated in two ways and you all only focus on one. EV fires are more intense/harder to put out, ICE fires are substantially more frequent on a per vehicle basis. If there's 30x as many ICE fires and an EV fire is 10x harder to put out, which is actually worse?

The answer is neither, because both are incredibly rare.

techno-ag said:

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Teslag said:

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How can it be a concern if you haven't analyzed the numbers? Surely you've done so correct?

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Aw contra air, I can be concerned based on what I know.

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I'm concerned based on what you know

hph6203 said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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hph6203 said:

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Just because something doesn't validate your claims doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

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EV fires literally create their own oxygen as they burn. Stop pretending they're the same

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They are not the same, but they are differentiated in two ways and you all only focus on one. EV fires are more intense/harder to put out, ICE fires are substantially more frequent on a per vehicle basis. If there's 30x as many ICE fires and an EV fire is 10x harder to put out, which is actually worse?

The answer is neither, because both are incredibly rare.

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The phenomenon you describe which I put in bold can be explained by factors other than vehicle type (primarily age and operator error)

From there, you made my argument for me. Thank you

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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hph6203 said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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hph6203 said:

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Just because something doesn't validate your claims doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

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EV fires literally create their own oxygen as they burn. Stop pretending they're the same

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They are not the same, but they are differentiated in two ways and you all only focus on one. EV fires are more intense/harder to put out, ICE fires are substantially more frequent on a per vehicle basis. If there's 30x as many ICE fires and an EV fire is 10x harder to put out, which is actually worse?

The answer is neither, because both are incredibly rare.

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The phenomenon you describe which I put in bold can be explained by factors other than vehicle type (primarily age and operator error)

From there, you made my argument for me. Thank you

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Absolutely. Cars crash and burn all the time. Leaving a Li-ion battery charging in your garage all night is a whole nother risk level.

Found some background, seems to have happened in Hong Kong. Poor guy suffered in the hospital for 28 days before dying.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/horror-moment-battery-blows-up-33328678

Teslag said:

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How can it be a concern if you haven't analyzed the numbers? Surely you've done so correct?

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Where was this attitude when you were reporting coworkers for skipping the vaccine?

It is an assumption that fire rates for EVs will get substantially worse as they age. They don't have the same maintenance requirements that combustion vehicles have, maintenance failures that compound on themselves to increase the likelihood of a fire. It is possible, but it is not a guaranteed outcome. Definitely not that they will occur at such an accelerate rate that it closes the gap in fire rates.

hph6203 said:

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It is an assumption that fire rates for EVs will get substantially worse as they age. They don't have the same maintenance requirements that combustion vehicles have, maintenance failures that compound on themselves to increase the likelihood of a fire. It is possible, but it is not a guaranteed outcome. Definitely not that they will occur at such an accelerate rate that it closes the gap in fire rates.

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You don't have to assume, older cars are an overwhelming percentage of vehicle fires. But, again, the point is that ICE fires do not create and then burn their own oxygen.

https://core.verisk.com/Insights/Emerging-Issues/Articles/2023/August/Week-4/Electric-Vehicle-Fire-Risk

The assumption is that the rate of fires as an EV ages will narrow the gap between ICE and EVs. That is not proven out. A significant contributor to the rate of fires is poor upkeep by the owners of the vehicles, a problem that doesn't exist to the same degree for EVs as it does for ICE vehicles.

Again, you're making an assumption.

Comparing the relative risks of an indoor vehicle fire as between a BEV and an ICE vehicle is similar to the long term health risks of a patient with tonsillitis vs. throat cancer. They are entirely different classes/topics/subjects of discussion.

hph6203 said:

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The assumption is that the rate of fires as an EV ages will narrow the gap between ICE and EVs. That is not proven out. A significant contributor to the rate of fires is poor upkeep by the owners of the vehicles, a problem that doesn't exist to the same degree for EVs as it does for ICE vehicles.

Again, you're making an assumption.

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Again, that is not the assumption. We don't have to sit around and wait for EV's to get old and see what happens, because we can measure new EV's against new ICE and watch the gap go away.

And again, the actual point I'm making is that ICE fires do not create and then burn their own oxygen.

aggiehawg said:

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The reason why is The Hubs has a hard time keeping the lake house golf cart charged, all of his tools charged.

We have multiple 200 amps drops on the ranch. But keeping that many things charged even on a trickle cell does not work forever. They die.

Until battery tech makes a HUGE advancement, EVs are futile.

Now, tell me why I am wrong.

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If you should change your mind, reusable EV fire blankets are on sale this week! Only $1800.

https://shop.darley.com/product/darley-car-fire-blanket-reusable-20-x-26/01t4U000006SUWnQAO

That's not your point. Your point is that EVs represent a significant increase in fire risk which is a function of frequency and intensity, and despite what you claim was contained in your link, it did not show a disappearance in the gap between EVs and ICE vehicles. What it showed is that as ICE vehicles age they become greater and greater fire risks. The assumption you are making, again, is that EVs will follow the same increase in fire incidences by virtue of them being a vehicle when there is massive differentiation between the two vehicle types.

Vehicles over 13 years of age had a fire incidence rate unrelated to a collision of 1000 per 100,000 vehicles.

Vehicles less than 13 years had a fire incidence rate of 300 per 100,000 vehicles.

That is compared to 25 per 100,000 for all causes for EVs.

That's a 12x and 40x difference between the total population of EVs and the presumed cause of the increase over the years is a failure by the owners to properly maintain and repair vehicles as components fail. That is not a significant issue with EVs as they are built to be maintenance free outside of tires for 100's of thousands of miles.


The problem, which is common among many of you, is that you didn't read the article you posted to see if it actually supported your claim. You just searched "vehicle fires by age" got an article that had "vehicle fires are a function of age?" And then posted it without reading any of the body of the article. They quite often either don't support it or outright refute it. In this case it's a lack of support of your claim and has the suggestion of an outright refutation though it's not definitive in its refutation.