I thought I was clear. Tax credits are bad. We should go to a flat tax. All are bad. If we had a flat tax we wouldn't have to worry about FSA's HSA's EV kids etc…

Also what's your thoughts on government financing charging stations?

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As I've stated, it's not just some random TA posters like me who are 'enemies' of BEV adoption, it's a substantial portion of the public, in Europe and here.

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This is pure conjecture.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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As I've stated, it's not just some random TA posters like me who are 'enemies' of BEV adoption, it's a substantial portion of the public, in Europe and here.

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This is pure conjecture.

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No, reading comprehension, it's based on widespread pushback from Europe to the US, including dealers.

nortex97 said:

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Lemonde with a second great article in a week is not something I had in my bingo card (other one was about attitudes toward Zelensky).

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Electric vehicles face new economic and political risks

Sluggish sales growth, a possible anti-battery-powered vehicle wave in the European elections... Automotive electrification is entering a period of uncertainty, posing major industrial problems for automakers.

The clouds are gathering over the future of e-cars. Having successfully gained a foothold in the market in record time almost one in five newly registered vehicles in France in April electric cars are now entering a more delicate phase in their prophesied conquest of the automotive world. The challenges they face are multiplying and their adversaries are stepping up to the plate. Their ascent even seems less of a foregone conclusion than it appeared just a few months ago.

While sales haven't collapsed, the market share of battery-powered cars in Europe fell by 2.5 points compared with the first quarter of 2023. This mainly stemmed from the deep cuts in public subsidies for battery-powered cars, the first to be targeted by fiscal rebalancing measures, especially in Germany, where the environmental bonus abruptly disappeared in December 2023.

The new five-year contract signed on Monday, May 6, between the automotive industry and the government to produce two million electric vehicles in France by 2030 up from 500,000 today is intended to improve vehicle electrification's outlook and credibility. And yet, other signals confirm that electric vehicles have lost some of their luster.

For major German brands, which threw themselves wholeheartedly into the electrification of their product range, this transition has been anything but smooth. Mercedes-Benz reported a 24.6% drop in net income and a 4.4% decline in sales for the first quarter, two rare underperformances primarily attributable to an 8% decline in sales of electric models. As for the Volkswagen Group, it saw its net profit sink in comparable proportions (with a high of 21.6% in the first quarter) due mainly to the poor sales of its battery-powered vehicle range, especially in China, its largest market.

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As I've stated, it's not just some random TA posters like me who are 'enemies' of BEV adoption, it's a substantial portion of the public, in Europe and here.

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Get woke, go broke. That is a devastating loss.

nortex97 said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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As I've stated, it's not just some random TA posters like me who are 'enemies' of BEV adoption, it's a substantial portion of the public, in Europe and here.

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This is pure conjecture.

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No, reading comprehension, it's based on widespread pushback from Europe to the US, including dealers.

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People not buying something does't mean they hate the item in question. There are quite a few posters here thaty say they don't see an EV fitting their needs but just hate the mandates. They don't go on some conspircay laden rant about CCP schemes and pure hatred. Even TechnoAg doesn't do that.

Reading comprehension and all that...

Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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As I've stated, it's not just some random TA posters like me who are 'enemies' of BEV adoption, it's a substantial portion of the public, in Europe and here.

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This is pure conjecture.

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No, reading comprehension, it's based on widespread pushback from Europe to the US, including dealers.

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People not buying something does't mean they hate the item in question. There are quite a few posters here thaty say they don't see an EV fitting their needs but just hate the mandates. They don't go on some conspircay laden rant about CCP schemes and pure hatred. Even TechnoAg doesn't do that.

Reading comprehension and all that...

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backintexas2013 said:

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I thought I was clear. Tax credits are bad. We should go to a flat tax. All are bad. If we had a flat tax we wouldn't have to worry about FSA's HSA's EV kids etc…

Also what's your thoughts on government financing charging stations?

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I think the government should not get involved in giving a private company an edge over other private companies. But seems like everyone is fixated on EV credits on this thread but conveniently ignore all the other deductions/credits that benefits them.

I think a GM/Chrysler bailouts were much worse than giving EV subsidies/Credits, but seems like most Never Ev-ers seem to ignore this fact.

So if you don't like EV credits and the government tipping the scales, then lets not forget how much the gov has tipped the scales with bailouts/low interest ICE loans.

Medaggie said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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I thought I was clear. Tax credits are bad. We should go to a flat tax. All are bad. If we had a flat tax we wouldn't have to worry about FSA's HSA's EV kids etc…

Also what's your thoughts on government financing charging stations?

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I think the government should not get involved in giving a private company an edge over other private companies. But seems like everyone is fixated on EV credits on this thread but conveniently ignore all the other deductions/credits that benefits them.

I think a GM/Chrysler bailouts were much worse than giving EV subsidies/Credits, but seems like most Never Ev-ers seem to ignore this fact.

So if you don't like EV credits and the government tipping the scales, then lets not forget how much the gov has tipped the scales with bailouts/low interest ICE loans.

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And as I pointed out yesterday, they don't have a problem with the tax benefits I get with an investment in a small oil and gas producer. Someone even said it was good because it reduced the cost of gasoline.

The bailouts shouldn't have happened. I was totally against them. Any subsidies I disagree with. I believe in flat tax.

Did you support the government building charging stations? You seem to avoid that question.

I do. Tesla had built most of their Superchargers before government subsidies and have now scaled back on their installation. They subsidies weren't needed.

So you are in support of the government building them? Since it's something you agree with you are all for it? Interesting. If they weren't needed why do you support it

Sorry, meant to say I don't. No government tax credits of any kind for EV's.

Ok. Agreed. I was asking someone who was all for subsidies just how far he thinks government should go

backintexas2013 said:

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Ok. Agreed. I was asking someone who was all for subsidies just how far he thinks government should go

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I'm all for the subsidy I got. I bought my EV before Biden changed the income rules and got $7,500 of my hard earned tax money back. Went out and bought an Omega Speedmaster Professional with it. Stimulated the American and Swiss economy.

Winning.

Medaggie said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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MaxPower said:

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The only difference is you think one is good and the other is bad. At that point, you have established you don't think tax credits are bad in principle. You are simply upset because enough people who think it's good voted for their politicians to get it passed.

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Tax credits are bad. Should be a flat tax.


No money to build charging stations either. I am sure you don't want government paying to build them. No conservative can be for that.

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Just curious. Do you think all credits are bad or just EV credits?

If they gave an ICE credit, would you think it is bad? If so, are you telling me you would not take it if available?

What about HSA which essentially is a tax credit for putting money away for medical care? Many take advantage of this but clearly unfair for those who are not allowed to have one.

How about all the clean energy tax credits? How about earned income credit? Student Loan interest deduction? Mortgage interest deduction?

Call it a credit or deduction, it is essentially all the same which lowers your tax burden. I am sure you have taken some of many of these, I know I have.

So If I buy an EV and get a 7500 tax credit, then I have made $7500. If you paid 30K in mortgage interest at a 25% bracket, you essentially made an extra $7500. Other than credit vs deduction, you essentially got $7500 back in your pocket.

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Using the tax code to promote or impede one provider of something over others is bad.

Government should not be in the job of picking winners and losers.

Hopefully you feel the same about all subsidies. Maybe even the EITC

backintexas2013 said:

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Hopefully you feel the same about all subsidies. Maybe even the EITC

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I don't care about all subsidies. I used the tax code to limit my taxes, just like I do every year like a good conservative.

I meant support all subsidies. If you support your pet project don't speak out against others. That includes people get money back that they didn't even pay

backintexas2013 said:

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I meant support all subsidies. If you support your pet project don't speak out against others. That includes people get money back that they didn't even pay

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I don't understand your question. I don't have a pet project. I said I used the government's stupid rules to limit my tax liability. Seems like the smart thing to do, no? What pet project do you think I have?

If you are asking a conservative person like me if I think the government has a plethora of stupid rules and subsidies, doing thousands upon thousands of things it shouldn't do that waste money, then of course, the answer is yes. Including tax breaks for electric vehicles.

If you are going to tell said conservative person he shouldn't have taken advantage of said stupid rules, then I'm sorry, but I'm just going to have to refuse your tax advice. I'm going to limit my taxes in any way I can.

Even if the U.S. didn't have emission standards and didn't have tax credits the market would still not be a free market. You are all asking and arguing over the wrong questions.

hph6203 said:

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Even if the U.S. didn't have emission standards and didn't have tax credits the market would still not be a free market. You are all asking and arguing over the wrong questions.

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That's right. EVs suck IMO, with hours long recharge times and are pretty much useless beyond short commutes. You're absolutely right. Who cares about tax credits if they're practically useless for what you need?

What do you consider a short commute? They are perfect for commutes up to around 70ish miles each way. Probably even better for that than short commutes.

backintexas2013 said:

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The bailouts shouldn't have happened. I was totally against them. Any subsidies I disagree with. I believe in flat tax.

Did you support the government building charging stations? You seem to avoid that question.

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I'm against the gov getting involved in charging. But I believe I already said I was against anything tipping the scale for private companies.

Medaggie said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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I thought I was clear. Tax credits are bad. We should go to a flat tax. All are bad. If we had a flat tax we wouldn't have to worry about FSA's HSA's EV kids etc…

Also what's your thoughts on government financing charging stations?

---

I think the government should not get involved in giving a private company an edge over other private companies. But seems like everyone is fixated on EV credits on this thread but conveniently ignore all the other deductions/credits that benefits them.

I think a GM/Chrysler bailouts were much worse than giving EV subsidies/Credits, but seems like most Never Ev-ers seem to ignore this fact.

So if you don't like EV credits and the government tipping the scales, then lets not forget how much the gov has tipped the scales with bailouts/low interest ICE loans.

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If you don't like EV tax credits you must oppose all tax credits is by far the weakest argument ever made in this thread to date; on my opinion.

I'd say you're at the top of the list at asking the wrong questions, but you don't even ask questions, you just skip to finding the answers you like. Zero curiosity and the consumption and regurgitation of information through memes.

"Hours long charge times." is an example.

Ya unless you're charging overnight at I'm not sure where one would have to charge for "hours".

You are missing the point. Most against EVs point to tax credits and uneven playing field. But they don't see that tax credits/subsidies/deductions exist in many aspects of our lives but for some reason when it comes to EVs then its some major talking point.

I am done with this thread at so many levels. When people can't see that water is wet, then its not worth discussing any further. When someone says EVs are useless other than short commutes, then they are clueless.

I drive 30K miles/year and have zero trouble with range. I guess 30k/yr is short commutes.

Medaggie said:

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You are missing the point. Most against EVs point to tax credits and uneven playing field. But they don't see that tax credits/subsidies/deductions exist in many aspects of our lives but for some reason when it comes to EVs then its some major talking point.

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No. I see the point I'm just calling it what it is, weak. The weakest I can recall in this thread, to be specific.

"Other tax credits exist and you don't oppose those" just isn't convincing.

Medaggie said:

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You are missing the point. Most against EVs point to tax credits and uneven playing field. But they don't see that tax credits/subsidies/deductions exist in many aspects of our lives but for some reason when it comes to EVs then its some major talking point.

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Because it is subsidizing products that otherwise wouldn't be competitive. The govt is picking winners. That is not the same as a child tax credit or even oil production incentives. You must be one of those people that thinks the government adding jobs means the economy becomes more productive. Subsidies are meant to promote behaviors. Anyone who has children and has remained married should receive a tax credit - why? Because it is statistically provable that 2 parent households produce more productive citizens than 1 parent households. Anyone who doesn't take any government assistance should get some of their tax dollars back - why? Because they aren't leeching off others and we should reward that behavior.

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Subsidies are meant to promote behaviors. Anyone who has children and has remained married should receive a tax credit - why? Because it is statistically probable that 2 parent households produce more productive citizens than 1 parent households.

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Do you think current policy has encouraged two parent households?

GAC06 said:

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Quote:

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Subsidies are meant to promote behaviors. Anyone who has children and has remained married should receive a tax credit - why? Because it is statistically probable that 2 parent households produce more productive citizens than 1 parent households.

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Do you think current policy has encouraged two parent households?

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No because that is not how it is currently written.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Medaggie said:

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You are missing the point. Most against EVs point to tax credits and uneven playing field. But they don't see that tax credits/subsidies/deductions exist in many aspects of our lives but for some reason when it comes to EVs then its some major talking point.

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No. I see the point I'm just calling it what it is, weak. The weakest I can recall in this thread, to be specific.

"Other tax credits exist and you don't oppose those" just isn't convincing.

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So are you ok with tax subsidies on oil and gas production with the intent to lower gasoline and diesel prices?

Kansas Kid said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Medaggie said:

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You are missing the point. Most against EVs point to tax credits and uneven playing field. But they don't see that tax credits/subsidies/deductions exist in many aspects of our lives but for some reason when it comes to EVs then its some major talking point.

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No. I see the point I'm just calling it what it is, weak. The weakest I can recall in this thread, to be specific.

"Other tax credits exist and you don't oppose those" just isn't convincing.

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So are you ok with tax subsidies on oil and gas production with the intent to lower gasoline and diesel prices?

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Yes.. incentivizing Americans to produce oil domestically so that we are less likely to be dependent on Middle East countries that want our demise, is a good thing.

Would bet a significant proportion of EVs sold don't get a credit, so when you say they're uncompetitive it's you not knowing the market.

What you're missing is that China has invested heavily in accelerating cost reductions associated with EV production and if you want to know where the cost of materials is headed for EVs you should look at what they are producing and selling EVs for and the cost reductions are nowhere near done, nor is the technological progression.

In short, you aren't paying attention. None of you are. You thin ICE vehicles will remain competitive in perpetuity, you are wrong.

You say it's appropriate to incentivize domestic production of oil, the tax credit is incentivizing domestic production of batteries/EVs.