texagbeliever said:

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GAC06 said:

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Dang I just ordered a Tesla and I was hoping you'd explain how I actually didn't want it and only bought it because of CAFE

---

The difference between you and I is the world seems to revolve around you and your choices and how things impact you. I see the world and how others are impacted. In this case those who can't afford an expensive luxury car but are looking for one to be able to commute to work daily and have an affordable monthly car payment. I know so selfish of me.

---

Only on the anti-EV thread does the left wing, Bernie Sanders, fighting for the working man wing of TexAgs routinely appear.

nortex97 said:

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There's some validity probably to this but his EPA fascists were really not interested in anything but what we now call the green new deal/global warming lies.

That EV's may have been substantively added as a front in this information war doesn't really mean they are substantively unrelated or that there is a reason to separate it out. When cafe was begun there was no 'global warming' fear, after all.

A distinction without a difference, in other words. And the 'BEV" lobby latched onto all the CAFE regulations they could as adding things like grill shutters etc. incrementally would quite deliberately make these cars less competitive/more expensive over time.

---

No argument from me that EVs have benefited from CAFE but that is a lot different than saying they were the reason for CAFE of the standards set back in 2011. All of society is affected by government rules and regulations. Entrepreneurs will always try to maximize their profits based on the rules of the game.
Why do we have an ethanol industry? It isn't because it is economical. It is because the farm lobby pushed hard for it and a lot of Republicans and some Dems gave them a massive hand out.
Why did I invest in O&G with a small company? Because the tax code incentives makes it a better investment for me than the other alternatives I was considering.
There are massive number of examples out there where the government meddles in the market and it isn't limited to the Dems.

slaughtr said:

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texagbeliever said:

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GAC06 said:

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Dang I just ordered a Tesla and I was hoping you'd explain how I actually didn't want it and only bought it because of CAFE

---

The difference between you and I is the world seems to revolve around you and your choices and how things impact you. I see the world and how others are impacted. In this case those who can't afford an expensive luxury car but are looking for one to be able to commute to work daily and have an affordable monthly car payment. I know so selfish of me.

---

Only on the anti-EV thread does the left wing, Bernie Sanders, fighting for the working man wing of TexAgs routinely appear.

---

That is actually a conservative principle. It is the liberal policy to make things so expensive that people become dependent on the government and lose their autonomy.

texagbeliever said:

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GAC06 said:

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Dang I just ordered a Tesla and I was hoping you'd explain how I actually didn't want it and only bought it because of CAFE

---

The difference between you and I is the world seems to revolve around you and your choices and how things impact you. I see the world and how others are impacted. In this case those who can't afford an expensive luxury car but are looking for one to be able to commute to work daily and have an affordable monthly car payment. I know so selfish of me.

---

How do you think my vehicle purchase (or yours since you're so concerned) affect those who can't afford expensive cars?

Is Tesla jacking up the prices of their ICE vehicles to sell EV's?

texagbeliever said:

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slaughtr said:

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texagbeliever said:

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GAC06 said:

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Dang I just ordered a Tesla and I was hoping you'd explain how I actually didn't want it and only bought it because of CAFE

---

The difference between you and I is the world seems to revolve around you and your choices and how things impact you. I see the world and how others are impacted. In this case those who can't afford an expensive luxury car but are looking for one to be able to commute to work daily and have an affordable monthly car payment. I know so selfish of me.

---

Only on the anti-EV thread does the left wing, Bernie Sanders, fighting for the working man wing of TexAgs routinely appear.

---

That is actually a conservative principle. It is the liberal policy to make things so expensive that people become dependent on the government and lose their autonomy.

---

Riiiiiiiiight.

Kansas Kid said:

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The big change in the targets was under Obama again before EVs were being pushed. There was a view that we would make massive improvements in engine efficiency that proved to be unrealistic. Were they insane, yes, but you can't blame EVs.

"On July 29, 2011, President Obama announced an agreement with thirteen large automakers to increase fuel economy to 54.5 miles per gallon for cars and light-duty trucks by model year 2025."

Tesla has clearly benefitted from CAFE standard increases selling credits worth about 9 billion dollars and was why they were profitable for a few years. While I oppose the rules that provided this benefit, again these rules were set in motion before EVs were viewed as a solution by politicians.

---

True.

The left often has the view that all it takes is modifying the law to change things. So, they pass a bill that demands that the laws of physics change.

GAC06 said:

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texagbeliever said:

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GAC06 said:

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Dang I just ordered a Tesla and I was hoping you'd explain how I actually didn't want it and only bought it because of CAFE

---

The difference between you and I is the world seems to revolve around you and your choices and how things impact you. I see the world and how others are impacted. In this case those who can't afford an expensive luxury car but are looking for one to be able to commute to work daily and have an affordable monthly car payment. I know so selfish of me.

---

How do you think my vehicle purchase (or yours since you're so concerned) affect those who can't afford expensive cars?

Is Tesla jacking up the prices of their ICE vehicles to sell EV's?

---

They sell their excess credits to the other car makers so they could meet their CAFE standards. Presumably the cost to buy the credits was added to the cost of their low efficiency vehicles although most of those vehicles are priced above the point that middle class buyers would purchase them. Low income people rarely buy new cars and when they do, they tend to buy low priced economy cars that meet CAFE standards.

hph6203 said:

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All EVs are more expensive because of regulations. Welcome to reality.

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The regulations on ICE are in place SPECIFICALLY to increase their cost.

There is a difference.

slaughtr said:

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texagbeliever said:

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GAC06 said:

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Dang I just ordered a Tesla and I was hoping you'd explain how I actually didn't want it and only bought it because of CAFE

---

The difference between you and I is the world seems to revolve around you and your choices and how things impact you. I see the world and how others are impacted. In this case those who can't afford an expensive luxury car but are looking for one to be able to commute to work daily and have an affordable monthly car payment. I know so selfish of me.

---

Only on the anti-EV thread does the left wing, Bernie Sanders, fighting for the working man wing of TexAgs routinely appear.

---

The anti-EV thread is also where the left-wing Greenpeace loving, tree hugger wing of Texags show up to talk about how bad EVs are for the environment.

Kansas Kid said:

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slaughtr said:

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texagbeliever said:

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GAC06 said:

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Dang I just ordered a Tesla and I was hoping you'd explain how I actually didn't want it and only bought it because of CAFE

---

The difference between you and I is the world seems to revolve around you and your choices and how things impact you. I see the world and how others are impacted. In this case those who can't afford an expensive luxury car but are looking for one to be able to commute to work daily and have an affordable monthly car payment. I know so selfish of me.

---

Only on the anti-EV thread does the left wing, Bernie Sanders, fighting for the working man wing of TexAgs routinely appear.

---

The anti-EV thread is also where the left-wing Greenpeace loving, tree hugger wing of Texags show up to talk about how bad EVs are for the environment.

---

Yup. And the anti-tax breaks for the rich wing.

I'm glad to see some diversity and equity show up on TexAgs. It's good for the community

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

---

There's some validity probably to this but his EPA fascists were really not interested in anything but what we now call the green new deal/global warming lies.

That EV's may have been substantively added as a front in this information war doesn't really mean they are substantively unrelated or that there is a reason to separate it out. When cafe was begun there was no 'global warming' fear, after all.

A distinction without a difference, in other words. And the 'BEV" lobby latched onto all the CAFE regulations they could as adding things like grill shutters etc. incrementally would quite deliberately make these cars less competitive/more expensive over time.

---

No argument from me that EVs have benefited from CAFE but that is a lot different than saying they were the reason for CAFE of the standards set back in 2011. All of society is affected by government rules and regulations. Entrepreneurs will always try to maximize their profits based on the rules of the game.
Why do we have an ethanol industry? It isn't because it is economical. It is because the farm lobby pushed hard for it and a lot of Republicans and some Dems gave them a massive hand out.
Why did I invest in O&G with a small company? Because the tax code incentives makes it a better investment for me than the other alternatives I was considering.
There are massive number of examples out there where the government meddles in the market and it isn't limited to the Dems.

---

That's fair. And I am going to refrain from a tirade about the ethanol corn caucus BS. Pisses me off to no end. When I go to Oklahoma I always am happy to pay a premium for ethanol free when available. One of the only advantages to driving an EV would be sticking it to the ethanol…people.

Communism sucks.



I've noted before that I think EV owners are disproportionately rich white males too but I dunno if that is wholly true, or just of Tesla's. Subsidies for rich white guys being pushed by democrats reminds me of some civil war memes.

How woke of you

Nortex uses a tax credit meme that shows a vehicle ineligible for a credit. The guy does zero research at all. Awesome.

So are you ok with the tax subsidies I get for my small company oil and gas investment?

Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

I drove one of those for work, I got a ICE last month to replace it and the others in my feet. Absolute garbage vehicles. We as a company had a fleet of EVs and have since sold them all, and the groups that supported it have all been let go or reassigned. EVs have a place, but not as linemen trucks, to carry heavy loads or to visit remote sites.

StandUpforAmerica said:

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Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

---

$94,500? But we are constantly assured on this thread that EVs are not luxury purchases.

Kansas Kid said:

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Aggies1322 said:

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Medaggie said:

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3 Evs and no tax credit for me. I avg 100 miles/dy. 5 supercharger stops for about 90 minutes with over 100K miles driving which is inconsequential especially when I likely would have stopped to go to the bathroom anyhow.

If tax credits is why everyone hates EVs and people who buy them; I guess you guys also hate kids and those who have them. I am sure many more have taken this credit than Ev credits.

---

Subsidizing a product line to make it a worthwhile value proposition is problematic. Let the market decide what it wants. That is the government picking winners to advance a ridiculous green agenda. Subsidizing families is much less a problem. Conflating the two is a surprising lack of understanding.

---

Do you have an issue with my passive investment in small oil and gas production that allows me to 1) not pay tax on 15% of the income off the top and 2) unlike usual passive investments, I can deduct losses from my regular income including salary? How is this the government not subsidizing oil and gas since I don't know of other investments I can make with this advantage?

See below for details
"The 1990 Tax Act provided tax advantages for the typical investor in Oil and Gas drilling projects. This "Small Producers Exemption" allows 15% of any investor's gross income for an Oil and Gas property to be TAX FREE, subject to certain limitations."

"The Tax Reform Act of 1986 introduced the concept of "passive" income and "active" income. The Act prohibits the offsetting of losses from passive activities against income from active businesses. The Act provides that a working interest in an Oil and Gas drilling program is not "passive" activity. Accordingly, deductions can be offset against income from business income, salaries, etc."

https://www.crownexploration.com/tax-advantages

---

One subsidy is to encourage people to help with energy production and the other is to encourage people to adhere to a green energy policy that doesn't make sense or provide any measurable benefit.

Do you see the difference? Or no?

MaxPower said:

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The only difference is you think one is good and the other is bad. At that point, you have established you don't think tax credits are bad in principle. You are simply upset because enough people who think it's good voted for their politicians to get it passed.

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Do I think the government giving the people its own money back is a problem? Hell no. I just think we should subsidize things that provide a measurable net positive on society.

techno-ag said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

---

$94,500? But we are constantly assured on this thread that EVs are not luxury purchases.

---

AOC is back to bash the rich.

Aggies1322 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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Aggies1322 said:

---

Medaggie said:

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3 Evs and no tax credit for me. I avg 100 miles/dy. 5 supercharger stops for about 90 minutes with over 100K miles driving which is inconsequential especially when I likely would have stopped to go to the bathroom anyhow.

If tax credits is why everyone hates EVs and people who buy them; I guess you guys also hate kids and those who have them. I am sure many more have taken this credit than Ev credits.

---

Subsidizing a product line to make it a worthwhile value proposition is problematic. Let the market decide what it wants. That is the government picking winners to advance a ridiculous green agenda. Subsidizing families is much less a problem. Conflating the two is a surprising lack of understanding.

---

Do you have an issue with my passive investment in small oil and gas production that allows me to 1) not pay tax on 15% of the income off the top and 2) unlike usual passive investments, I can deduct losses from my regular income including salary? How is this the government not subsidizing oil and gas since I don't know of other investments I can make with this advantage?

See below for details
"The 1990 Tax Act provided tax advantages for the typical investor in Oil and Gas drilling projects. This "Small Producers Exemption" allows 15% of any investor's gross income for an Oil and Gas property to be TAX FREE, subject to certain limitations."

"The Tax Reform Act of 1986 introduced the concept of "passive" income and "active" income. The Act prohibits the offsetting of losses from passive activities against income from active businesses. The Act provides that a working interest in an Oil and Gas drilling program is not "passive" activity. Accordingly, deductions can be offset against income from business income, salaries, etc."

https://www.crownexploration.com/tax-advantages

---

One subsidy is to encourage people to help with energy production and the other is to encourage people to adhere to a green energy policy that doesn't make sense or provide any measurable benefit.

Do you see the difference? Or no?

---

They both are used to distort the economy. So you are on record for subsidizing ICE vehicles through lower energy costs. That is what is called hypocrisy. " Subsidies are ok for things I like and not for things I don't like. ".

Let the market chips fall where they may and end all of these subsidies.

By what person's definition and calculations. This is why central planning never works because each individual has their own subjective values.

StandUpforAmerica said:

---

Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

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That's not a Silverado...that's an Avalanche...

techno-ag said:

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StandUpforAmerica said:

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Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

---

$94,500? But we are constantly assured on this thread that EVs are not luxury purchases.

---

There are luxury EVs and non-luxury EVs, just as there are for ICE. What's your point?

techno-ag said:

---

StandUpforAmerica said:

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Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

---

$94,500? But we are constantly assured on this thread that EVs are not luxury purchases.

---

Today I learned that all EV's are $94,500.

Teslag said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

StandUpforAmerica said:

---

Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

---

$94,500? But we are constantly assured on this thread that EVs are not luxury purchases.

---

Today I learned that all EV's are $94,500.

---

Well before you thought they were all 30k. You're making progress.

MaxPower said:

---

The only difference is you think one is good and the other is bad. At that point, you have established you don't think tax credits are bad in principle. You are simply upset because enough people who think it's good voted for their politicians to get it passed.

---

Tax credits are bad. Should be a flat tax.


No money to build charging stations either. I am sure you don't want government paying to build them. No conservative can be for that.

techno-ag said:

---

Teslag said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

StandUpforAmerica said:

---

Anyone want a $95K Silverado EV that weighs over 9000 lbs?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/the-2024-chevrolet-silverado-evs-great-range-comes-at-a-high-cost/

---

$94,500? But we are constantly assured on this thread that EVs are not luxury purchases.

---

Today I learned that all EV's are $94,500.

---

Well before you thought they were all 30k. You're making progress.

---

What better way to follow a strawman? Another one.

You missed the winkie.

Aggies1322 said:

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Medaggie said:

---

3 Evs and no tax credit for me. I avg 100 miles/dy. 5 supercharger stops for about 90 minutes with over 100K miles driving which is inconsequential especially when I likely would have stopped to go to the bathroom anyhow.

If tax credits is why everyone hates EVs and people who buy them; I guess you guys also hate kids and those who have them. I am sure many more have taken this credit than Ev credits.

---

Subsidizing a product line to make it a worthwhile value proposition is problematic. Let the market decide what it wants. That is the government picking winners to advance a ridiculous green agenda. Subsidizing families is much less a problem. Conflating the two is a surprising lack of understanding.

---

I am well aware of the differences. But you now have taken on the role of judge and jury. Just because you disagree with one does not mean they have no worth and vice versa.

Regardless, the EV credits started in early 2023 I believe. By that time, Tesla was on their way to being the top selling car regardless of drive train. The EV credits was essentially created by Biden to help the Big 3's failed EV projects.

backintexas2013 said:

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MaxPower said:

---

The only difference is you think one is good and the other is bad. At that point, you have established you don't think tax credits are bad in principle. You are simply upset because enough people who think it's good voted for their politicians to get it passed.

---

Tax credits are bad. Should be a flat tax.


No money to build charging stations either. I am sure you don't want government paying to build them. No conservative can be for that.

---

Just curious. Do you think all credits are bad or just EV credits?

If they gave an ICE credit, would you think it is bad? If so, are you telling me you would not take it if available?

What about HSA which essentially is a tax credit for putting money away for medical care? Many take advantage of this but clearly unfair for those who are not allowed to have one.

How about all the clean energy tax credits? How about earned income credit? Student Loan interest deduction? Mortgage interest deduction?

Call it a credit or deduction, it is essentially all the same which lowers your tax burden. I am sure you have taken some of many of these, I know I have.

So If I buy an EV and get a 7500 tax credit, then I have made $7500. If you paid 30K in mortgage interest at a 25% bracket, you essentially made an extra $7500. Other than credit vs deduction, you essentially got $7500 back in your pocket.

Medaggie said:

---

Aggies1322 said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

3 Evs and no tax credit for me. I avg 100 miles/dy. 5 supercharger stops for about 90 minutes with over 100K miles driving which is inconsequential especially when I likely would have stopped to go to the bathroom anyhow.

If tax credits is why everyone hates EVs and people who buy them; I guess you guys also hate kids and those who have them. I am sure many more have taken this credit than Ev credits.

---

Subsidizing a product line to make it a worthwhile value proposition is problematic. Let the market decide what it wants. That is the government picking winners to advance a ridiculous green agenda. Subsidizing families is much less a problem. Conflating the two is a surprising lack of understanding.

---

I am well aware of the differences. But you now have taken on the role of judge and jury. Just because you disagree with one does not mean they have no worth and vice versa.

Regardless, the EV credits started in early 2023 I believe. By that time, Tesla was on their way to being the top selling car regardless of drive train. The EV credits was essentially created by Biden to help the Big 3's failed EV projects.

---

AI says:

Quote:

---

The history of the electric vehicle (EV) tax credit in the United States includes:

2005
The U.S. Energy Policy Act established a $3,400 federal income tax credit for new hybrid vehicles purchased after December 31, 2005.

20092010
A 50% reduction in the annual automobile tax for new electric vehicles, including fuel cell vehicles, was in effect from April 1, 2009, until March 31, 2010.

2010
The IRS established an EV tax credit of up to $7,500 for battery-electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, while phasing out tax credits for natural gas, diesel, and hybrid vehicles.

2022
The Inflation Reduction Act revamped the Federal Electric Vehicle Tax Credit.

2024
New EV buyers may be eligible for up to a $7,500 tax credit, while used EV buyers may qualify for up to $4,000. In 2024, consumers can also transfer the credit to an eligible dealer for an immediate discount on the vehicle.

---

I know the history, but in context, we are talking about EV credits from Biden's IRA. But you are really good at nitpicking everything to make your point without making much of a point.

But to your point, the diesel credit. Should you not be up in arms with all the diesel owners? I mean, its essentially the same right?

Lets try to be a little fair and not nitpick on one but then ignore the same happening in many aspects of our lives to make your point b/c you don't like EVs.

I get it, you dont like it and should not buy it. But not sure why you spend so much time telling others what they should do with the money.

Lemonde with a second great article in a week is not something I had in my bingo card (other one was about attitudes toward Zelensky).

Quote:

---

Electric vehicles face new economic and political risks

Sluggish sales growth, a possible anti-battery-powered vehicle wave in the European elections... Automotive electrification is entering a period of uncertainty, posing major industrial problems for automakers.

The clouds are gathering over the future of e-cars. Having successfully gained a foothold in the market in record time almost one in five newly registered vehicles in France in April electric cars are now entering a more delicate phase in their prophesied conquest of the automotive world. The challenges they face are multiplying and their adversaries are stepping up to the plate. Their ascent even seems less of a foregone conclusion than it appeared just a few months ago.

While sales haven't collapsed, the market share of battery-powered cars in Europe fell by 2.5 points compared with the first quarter of 2023. This mainly stemmed from the deep cuts in public subsidies for battery-powered cars, the first to be targeted by fiscal rebalancing measures, especially in Germany, where the environmental bonus abruptly disappeared in December 2023.

The new five-year contract signed on Monday, May 6, between the automotive industry and the government to produce two million electric vehicles in France by 2030 up from 500,000 today is intended to improve vehicle electrification's outlook and credibility. And yet, other signals confirm that electric vehicles have lost some of their luster.

For major German brands, which threw themselves wholeheartedly into the electrification of their product range, this transition has been anything but smooth. Mercedes-Benz reported a 24.6% drop in net income and a 4.4% decline in sales for the first quarter, two rare underperformances primarily attributable to an 8% decline in sales of electric models. As for the Volkswagen Group, it saw its net profit sink in comparable proportions (with a high of 21.6% in the first quarter) due mainly to the poor sales of its battery-powered vehicle range, especially in China, its largest market.

---

As I've stated, it's not just some random TA posters like me who are 'enemies' of BEV adoption, it's a substantial portion of the public, in Europe and here.