A patch fixed that correct?

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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nortex97 said:

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Teslag said:

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The utility of the thread imho is to share information not understood by folks who track this stuff so closely.

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Which is odd given how many "authorities" on EV's we have on this board who have never owned nor operated one.

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No. Reading comprehension fail. It was started by/for that purpose.

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Fun to see nortex owning this thread.

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Except the part where he assured us Tesla's battery health result can be manipulated (and that it was easily available online) and then refused to show us how or where.

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Except that I did. You just then whined that all changed and is impregnable since 2022 and for some reason cried about me needing to know what you think about their latest whatever as usual as though I owe you a duty of some weird sort.

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Except that I did

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No, you didn't. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. Tesla didn't even have the ability to check battery health until 2023 and tried to use an article from 2021 saying how someone could,

Can you or can you not tell me, or even show me where to find, the ability to manipulate the Tesla battery health result?

You said I could now. Put up or shut up.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Except that I did

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No, you didn't. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. Tesla didn't even have the ability to check battery health until 2023 and tried to use an article from 2021 saying how someone could,

Can you or can you not tell me, or even show me where to find, the ability to manipulate the Tesla battery health result?

You said I could now. Put up or shut up.

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Nothing Nortex has said seems unreasonable. Heck, if Tesla can manipulate the battery range readings, it seems reasonable owners could too.

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Tesla allegedly altered vehicle software to show longer range estimates

Reuters' investigation found that Tesla formed a special internal team to seek out and cancel service appointments related to battery performance and range. Owners reported booking service visits to check battery health, only to receive messages that their vehicles were fine and that Tesla would like their appointments canceled. The automaker formed a "Diversion Team" to handle the thwarting because its service locations couldn't keep up with requests from disappointed customers whose vehicles failed to deliver the expected range numbers.

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https://www.autoblog.com/2023/07/27/tesla-range-estimates-overstated-secret-software-team/

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Except that I did

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No, you didn't. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. Tesla didn't even have the ability to check battery health until 2023 and tried to use an article from 2021 saying how someone could,

Can you or can you not tell me, or even show me where to find, the ability to manipulate the Tesla battery health result?

You said I could now. Put up or shut up.

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2 edits in a bold rage post. As soon as you have me on a witness stand/in a sworn deposition I'll agree to answer your questions as such, internet-counselor EV covid war expert extraordinaire. This is such weak sauce, try harder.

Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge

GAC06 said:

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Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge

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Exactly.

He doesn't realize we are laughing, not rage posting. His exact comment...

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And there are endless forums/tricks to hide actual battery data when selling as we are all well aware.

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"Endless" but can't even show us one. Dude popped off and shoved his foot in his mouth and got called on it. Who knows, maybe he can provide a how-to in "weeks".

techno-ag said:

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Teslag said:

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Except that I did

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No, you didn't. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. Tesla didn't even have the ability to check battery health until 2023 and tried to use an article from 2021 saying how someone could,

Can you or can you not tell me, or even show me where to find, the ability to manipulate the Tesla battery health result?

You said I could now. Put up or shut up.

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Nothing Nortex has said seems unreasonable. Heck, if Tesla can manipulate the battery range readings, it seems reasonable owners could too.

Quote:

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Tesla allegedly altered vehicle software to show longer range estimates

Reuters' investigation found that Tesla formed a special internal team to seek out and cancel service appointments related to battery performance and range. Owners reported booking service visits to check battery health, only to receive messages that their vehicles were fine and that Tesla would like their appointments canceled. The automaker formed a "Diversion Team" to handle the thwarting because its service locations couldn't keep up with requests from disappointed customers whose vehicles failed to deliver the expected range numbers.

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https://www.autoblog.com/2023/07/27/tesla-range-estimates-overstated-secret-software-team/

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Range estimate is completely different than the service mode battery health test.

Nortex said anyone can alter this result when re-selling. He was either ignorant or flat out lied.

Teslag said:

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bobbranco said:

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Plenty here own and operate EV's.

Most probably don't operate the BEV variety.

Because the BEV is a minor segment of the EV marketplace.

The golf cart marketplace is majority BEV.

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I think it's quite clear this thread is discussing EV as road vehicles, not golf carts (of which over 40% are ice powered).

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Ahem.

The OP mentioned golf carts.

You have gone way off the tracks with your nauseating EV proselytizing.

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The reason why is The Hubs has a hard time keeping the lake house golf cart charged, all of his tools charged.

We have multiple 200 amps drops on the ranch. But keeping that many things charged even on a trickle cell does not work forever. They die.

Until battery tech makes a HUGE advancement, EVs are futile.

Now, tell me why I am wrong.

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Not a single EV owner here is "proselytizing". We, and I, have repeatedly said they are great for certain people and a poor choice for many others. And most of us do in fact own ICE vehicles as well and see their benefits in many situations.

There goes that reading comprehension thing again.

bobbranco said:

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Teslag said:

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bobbranco said:

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Plenty here own and operate EV's.

Most probably don't operate the BEV variety.

Because the BEV is a minor segment of the EV marketplace.

The golf cart marketplace is majority BEV.

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I think it's quite clear this thread is discussing EV as road vehicles, not golf carts (of which over 40% are ice powered).

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Ahem.

The OP mentioned golf carts.

You have gone way off the tracks with your nauseating EV proselytizing.

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The reason why is The Hubs has a hard time keeping the lake house golf cart charged, all of his tools charged.

We have multiple 200 amps drops on the ranch. But keeping that many things charged even on a trickle cell does not work forever. They die.

Until battery tech makes a HUGE advancement, EVs are futile.

Now, tell me why I am wrong.

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Probably because the same OP titled her thread "I will never buy an electric powered vehicle" and then proceeded to say she owned an electric golf cart.

So anyone with "reading comprehension" would obviously know she's referring to EV's used on the road.

Britain's e-bus ticking timebomb: How nearly TWO THOUSAND electric buses worth 800m face urgent recall over fears they could see burst into flames

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Safety watchdogs have ordered the recall of almost 2,000 electric buses over fears they can catch fire if left unattended.

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency has warned operators who use the Alexander Dennis Enviro200 and Enviro400 single and double decker buses of the critical safety issue.

The buses are currently operational across the UK, with more than 600 in London and a further 100 in Manchester.

All of the affected vehicles were manufactured between May 3, 2019 and February 6, 2024. They all contain batteries supplied by Chinese firm BYD.

Initial investigations suggest the fault may be in the air conditioning and heating system. The alert was issued following a scare on board one of the buses which can cost up to 450,000 each putting the value of the entire fleet at 800m.

At present, there is no permanent solution to prevent future fires. Instead, operators using the high-tech buses are warned to 'switch off the Hipsacold HVAC system when the vehicle is left unattended'.

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The thing I haven't been able to understand is why is the HVAC system on an electric bus prone to this issue when certainly they have HVAC systems on ICE buses as well? Guess I'll have to dig into the Hipsacold system itself to understand...

ETA: This is all the source article had about the fires....sorely lacking in detail.

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According to a recall notice issued by the DVSA affected 105 buses, 'the low voltage harness connector of the control module may experience fatigue if subjected to excessive mating cycles leading to a localised thermal incident'.

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ShinerAggie said:

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Britain's e-bus ticking timebomb: How nearly TWO THOUSAND electric buses worth 800m face urgent recall over fears they could see burst into flames

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Safety watchdogs have ordered the recall of almost 2,000 electric buses over fears they can catch fire if left unattended.

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency has warned operators who use the Alexander Dennis Enviro200 and Enviro400 single and double decker buses of the critical safety issue.

The buses are currently operational across the UK, with more than 600 in London and a further 100 in Manchester.

All of the affected vehicles were manufactured between May 3, 2019 and February 6, 2024. They all contain batteries supplied by Chinese firm BYD.

Initial investigations suggest the fault may be in the air conditioning and heating system. The alert was issued following a scare on board one of the buses which can cost up to 450,000 each putting the value of the entire fleet at 800m.

At present, there is no permanent solution to prevent future fires. Instead, operators using the high-tech buses are warned to 'switch off the Hipsacold HVAC system when the vehicle is left unattended'.

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The thing I haven't been able to understand is why is the HVAC system on an electric bus prone to this issue when certainly they have HVAC systems on ICE buses as well? Guess I'll have to dig into the Hipsacold system itself to understand...

ETA: This is all the source article had about the fires....sorely lacking in detail.

Quote:

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According to a recall notice issued by the DVSA affected 105 buses, 'the low voltage harness connector of the control module may experience fatigue if subjected to excessive mating cycles leading to a localised thermal incident'.

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It's just another over the air software update, right guys?

45,000 buses and trucks recalled last year for faulty wiring related to the HVAC blower motor.

The commentary about OTA updates is not that EVs are devoid of hardware recalls, but rather that you're a nitwit that posts every software update of an EV as if it should be another example of why they're doomed for failure.

Complex manufacturing is subject to error. This is an example of that as are the fiery death traps for kids that happened to run on diesel.

hph6203 said:

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45,000 buses and trucks recalled last year for faulty wiring related to the HVAC blower motor.

The commentary about OTA updates is not that EVs are devoid of hardware recalls, but rather that you're a nitwit that posts every software update of an EV as if it should be another example of why they're doomed for failure.

Complex manufacturing is subject to error. This is an example of that as are the fiery death traps for kids that happened to run on diesel.

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These are e-buses we're talking about muchacho.

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Safety watchdogs have ordered the recall of almost 2,000 electric buses over fears they can catch fire if left unattended.

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Has anyone on this thread been a proponent of electric buses?

2000 electric buses recalled for a wiring issue with the HVAC totally unrelated to the drivetrain or battery against 45,000 recalled for a wiring issue with the HVAC for diesel vehicles.

I say we just get rid of HVACs in buses all together, they're dangers to society.

BEV's hit with annual tax for road damage due to increased weight. Relatedly, EV's estimated to emit 20 percent more particulate waste from petroleum product tires due to their mass. (Note, I haven't looked it up, but I am sure tesla is working on a plant based tire spec that will just emit algae seeds or unicorn scented odor as it is degraded, in their 2025 models as a software update).

Always read a Nortex link.

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The fee of $200 also roughly equates to what the government says the average ICE vehicle owner pays in fuel taxes each year.

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So basically it's just an excuse for government to get their money and they used "weight" to justify it.

Teslag said:

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Always read a Nortex link.

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The fee of $200 also roughly equates to what the government says the average ICE vehicle owner pays in fuel taxes each year.

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So basically it's just an excuse for government to get their money and they used "weight" to justify it.

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Shouldn't EVs pay road tax?

Yes, they absolutely should. Everyone who uses roads should pay for them. We were assessed like $250 or something this for the first time this year, though I was exempt from actually having to pay it.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Teslag said:

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Always read a Nortex link.

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The fee of $200 also roughly equates to what the government says the average ICE vehicle owner pays in fuel taxes each year.

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So basically it's just an excuse for government to get their money and they used "weight" to justify it.

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Shouldn't EVs pay road tax?

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Yes they should and the $200 is about right. The comedy in this article is they tried to blame the weight of the car rather than just come out and say flat out it was to cover the avoided gas tax. Texas and many other states have done the same thing. It is a lot better than them going to an odometer tax for all cars that some people have advocated for.

If it was a weight issue, they should just assess every car on their registration by curb weight which would mean many SUVs and trucks would pay even more than the EVs since there are a lot of vehicles over 5,000 lbs on the road today.

Road tax is good.

The study is bad in methodology. The vehicles they chose to use were the Tesla Model Y and the Kia Niro Hybrid. The Model Y is 7% longer, 22% Wider, and 7% taller and the Kia Nira calls itself an SUV. The storage space in the Model Y is actually 88% larger than the Kia Niro. In other words, the overall footprint of the Model Y is ~30% larger in footprint while weighing 30% more while providing more storage space and more space for its passengers. Not exactly a 1:1 comparison.

A better comparison would be a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. Curb weight 3690 to 3800 lbs compared to the Model Y at 4154 to 4398. They have roughly the same dimensions, cargo space and the Model Y is about 10-15% heavier than the competitor.


You then have to adjust for lower efficiency due to the actual weight of the hybrid vehicle, and the fact that the hybrid uses its brakes frequently and the EV does not. It also requires that you ignore that the majority of the particulates are deposited particulates on the road (89% of the weight) while the majority of tailpipe and brake dust is airborne.


Then you have to contend with the reality that due to the complexity of the drive system and the increase in potential failure points that the hybrid vehicles catch on fire about 30+ times more frequently than EVs while also having those pesky lithium batteries to deal with.

If we are truly worried about curb weight, start taxing on engine displacement and vehicle curb weight until everyone is driving a hatchback, sedan, or station wagon.

Just look at the average Texas vehicle size vs the average size in the UK

Curb weight only. If you tax engine displacement, we'll end up with a bunch of complex over stressed unreliable tiny turbo motors that perform better on the EPA test but get similar or worse real world fuel economy. They'll have turbo lag, a flat mid range torque curve then run out of steam up top. Sufficient movers but about the most boring power curve imaginable outside of the EV world.

Fairest tax would be curb weight x miles driven

But I'm not going to let the govt put on a gps tracker

You could just have an odometer inspection with harsh penalties for tampering.

I actually do not want either of those taxes. It was an exaggeration post about how the average American doesn't care about curb weight and tire dust on the ICE vehicles they drive now, why would they care about it for EVs?

hph6203 said:

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There is very little upkeep knowledge necessary. It's just follow the warnings the vehicle presents to you. If the vehicle says to charge to 80% daily, charge to 80% daily. If the vehicle says charge to 100% daily, charge to 100%. If the vehicle says DC fast charging past 80% can accelerate battery degradation, don't DC fast charge past 80%. Simple.

Even absent following what the vehicle says with respect to fast charging it is actually a net waste of time for the owner and that would be fairly clear after the first time they do it. The time to charge 10-80% is roughly the same as charging 80-100%.

The argument is basically that a person is going to ignore warnings that they're potentially accelerating battery degradation and that they're going to do that so they can waste their own time. Then they're going to turn around and hack their car to modify the battery health data. Dumb enough to damage it beyond the norm, smart enough to find hacking tools. Seems like a small population.

I can see manipulation of range estimates happening, but that's an easy thing to suss out.

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Half the people out there are 5 min away from a dead cell phone and their car's low fuel light came on 2 days ago, but they'll be fastidious with how they charge their cars...Ok.

Being facetious with that, but, the point is still there. The next gen of just ordinary buyers will be less careful about how they do things. They'll charge to 100% when it says to charge to 80% (so they don't run out of charge later, etc.). They'll ignore warnings like many people ignore the check engine light.

These are just real world issues - not a ding on EVs at all. These same people will treat their ICE car no better.

BTW, I'm not making a comment on hacking the EV...just human behavioral patterns.

tk for tu juan said:

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I actually do not want either of those taxes. It was an exaggeration post about how the average American doesn't care about curb weight and tire dust on the ICE vehicles they drive now, why would they care about it for EVs?

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Nortex cares about the environment as much as he posts about. He is our resident tree hugger along with techno.

Ag with kids said:

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hph6203 said:

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There is very little upkeep knowledge necessary. It's just follow the warnings the vehicle presents to you. If the vehicle says to charge to 80% daily, charge to 80% daily. If the vehicle says charge to 100% daily, charge to 100%. If the vehicle says DC fast charging past 80% can accelerate battery degradation, don't DC fast charge past 80%. Simple.

Even absent following what the vehicle says with respect to fast charging it is actually a net waste of time for the owner and that would be fairly clear after the first time they do it. The time to charge 10-80% is roughly the same as charging 80-100%.

The argument is basically that a person is going to ignore warnings that they're potentially accelerating battery degradation and that they're going to do that so they can waste their own time. Then they're going to turn around and hack their car to modify the battery health data. Dumb enough to damage it beyond the norm, smart enough to find hacking tools. Seems like a small population.

I can see manipulation of range estimates happening, but that's an easy thing to suss out.

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Half the people out there are 5 min away from a dead cell phone and their car's low fuel light came on 2 days ago, but they'll be fastidious with how they charge their cars...Ok.

Being facetious with that, but, the point is still there. The next gen of just ordinary buyers will be less careful about how they do things. They'll charge to 100% when it says to charge to 80% (so they don't run out of charge later, etc.). They'll ignore warnings like many people ignore the check engine light.

These are just real world issues - not a ding on EVs at all. These same people will treat their ICE car no better.

BTW, I'm not making a comment on hacking the EV...just human behavioral patterns.

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Electric cars will need to have a way to keep track of this. Data logs could easily spit out statistics if nothing else. It's past time for vehicles to have due diligence packages that are more robust than Carfax. Especially considering the high purchase price, high repair price, and complexity of modern vehicles. This equally applies to ICE and EVs.

I doubt it'll happen though because it would hurt the dealers and fleet operators. It would be highly beneficial to the people that maintain their vehicles and motivate those who typically don't.

tk for tu juan said:

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I actually do not want either of those taxes. It was an exaggeration post about how the average American doesn't care about curb weight and tire dust on the ICE vehicles they drive now, why would they care about it for EVs?

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I got you, I actually would prefer curb weight to be a bigger factor or maybe less of a factor at least in regards to CAFE standards. I hate that performance cars hurt fleet averages more than trucks and SUVs with similar or worse fuel economy or emissions due to the differences in curb weight. It's killing the ICE performance car segment and leaving it with nothing but expensive low production halo cars or tiny underpowered cars. Many are being converted to EV only or losing cylinders and character. All while prices skyrocket across the board.

Yeah, that is a late 70's or early 80's gift (herpes) that keeps on giving (or maybe I'm thinking of the gas guzzler tax that trucks/SUVs are exempt from). I just want to be able to buy and register an Ariel Atom in the State of Texas while they still exist.

Ford's EV sales in February increased 81% compared to Feb '23. Still a small portion of their overall sales. F-Series sales are down on the year so far, good for buyers looking for a new truck.

Ford Sales Report Feb '24
https://s201.q4cdn.com/693218008/files/doc_news/2024/Mar/04/feb-2024-ford-u-s-sales.pdf