Kansas Kid said:tk for tu juan said:
I actually do not want either of those taxes. It was an exaggeration post about how the average American doesn't care about curb weight and tire dust on the ICE vehicles they drive now, why would they care about it for EVs?
Nortex cares about the environment as much as he posts about. He is our resident tree hugger along with techno.
Ag with kids said:Half the people out there are 5 min away from a dead cell phone and their car's low fuel light came on 2 days ago, but they'll be fastidious with how they charge their cars...Ok.hph6203 said:
There is very little upkeep knowledge necessary. It's just follow the warnings the vehicle presents to you. If the vehicle says to charge to 80% daily, charge to 80% daily. If the vehicle says charge to 100% daily, charge to 100%. If the vehicle says DC fast charging past 80% can accelerate battery degradation, don't DC fast charge past 80%. Simple.
Even absent following what the vehicle says with respect to fast charging it is actually a net waste of time for the owner and that would be fairly clear after the first time they do it. The time to charge 10-80% is roughly the same as charging 80-100%.
The argument is basically that a person is going to ignore warnings that they're potentially accelerating battery degradation and that they're going to do that so they can waste their own time. Then they're going to turn around and hack their car to modify the battery health data. Dumb enough to damage it beyond the norm, smart enough to find hacking tools. Seems like a small population.
I can see manipulation of range estimates happening, but that's an easy thing to suss out.
Being facetious with that, but, the point is still there. The next gen of just ordinary buyers will be less careful about how they do things. They'll charge to 100% when it says to charge to 80% (so they don't run out of charge later, etc.). They'll ignore warnings like many people ignore the check engine light.
These are just real world issues - not a ding on EVs at all. These same people will treat their ICE car no better.
BTW, I'm not making a comment on hacking the EV...just human behavioral patterns.
I'm going to ask this because I truly don't know, is an ICE or BEV more likely to spill liquids and other debris that needs to be cleaned or decreasing lifespan of roads?CanyonAg77 said:
Fairest tax would be curb weight x miles driven
But I'm not going to let the govt put on a gps tracker
MaxPower said:I'm going to ask this because I truly don't know, is an ICE or BEV more likely to spill liquids and other debris that needs to be cleaned or decreasing lifespan of roads?CanyonAg77 said:
Fairest tax would be curb weight x miles driven
But I'm not going to let the govt put on a gps tracker
With ICE, The Hubs used kitty liiter to soak up gas and oil, hydraulics. Same with aircraft fires.Quote:
Think about after any frontal accident how often you see leaks on the road.
And just like clockwork...you handwave away issues with, well, that's not the norm....hph6203 said:
You are taking a scenario where the product consumes the whole of the battery passively throughout 24 hours without any use, and if used in a normal capacity will consume the whole of the battery multiple times per day and comparing it to a product where the average person is going to consume around 11-18% of the battery daily inclusive of passive drain (dependent upon what settings the car idles at and range of the vehicle).
Meaning that a person with an EV has 3-6 days for an NCM based battery and 5-8 days with an LFP battery to plug their car in at the end of the day with more consistent memory cues of "I get home, I'm exiting my car, I charge" rather than "I go to bed, I may or may not have my phone on me, I need to get my phone and charge it" and even then the frequency with which people don't actually plug their phone in at night is low. The reason people are perpetually low on charge is not because they are forgetful, but rather the nature of the product itself. Passive battery drain and small battery size relative to normal daily use. If a smartphone battery lasted for 3 days and people were told that charging every day increases the useful life of their phone, you know what they'd do? Charge every day and rarely ever be low on battery.
You are anticipating that people are going to be anywhere from 3 to 6 times more forgetful and that they are then going to resolve that forgetfulness not by visiting a supercharger and charging their $30-80,000 vehicle to manufacturer recommendations when warned that not doing so could degrade the useful life of their vehicle, but that they're going to rectify that lapse in memory by routinely charging beyond recommendations.
Will that kind of person exist? Sure, it's not going to be the norm. Because the norm person looks at that warning and says "This car takes up 10-40% of my income, I don't want to damage it." It's a comparison that makes sense if you ignore the details, kind of like comparing an EV battery to a power tool battery or golf cart battery and thinking they're relevant comparisons when there is differentiation in how the product is designed and used.
My PHONE tells me what the battery level is and sometimes I forget and I am responsible guy. My GF forgets to charge hers all the time when she has the chance and and her phone often lives on the edge of dying.Teslag said:Ag with kids said:Half the people out there are 5 min away from a dead cell phone and their car's low fuel light came on 2 days ago, but they'll be fastidious with how they charge their cars...Ok.hph6203 said:
There is very little upkeep knowledge necessary. It's just follow the warnings the vehicle presents to you. If the vehicle says to charge to 80% daily, charge to 80% daily. If the vehicle says charge to 100% daily, charge to 100%. If the vehicle says DC fast charging past 80% can accelerate battery degradation, don't DC fast charge past 80%. Simple.
Even absent following what the vehicle says with respect to fast charging it is actually a net waste of time for the owner and that would be fairly clear after the first time they do it. The time to charge 10-80% is roughly the same as charging 80-100%.
The argument is basically that a person is going to ignore warnings that they're potentially accelerating battery degradation and that they're going to do that so they can waste their own time. Then they're going to turn around and hack their car to modify the battery health data. Dumb enough to damage it beyond the norm, smart enough to find hacking tools. Seems like a small population.
I can see manipulation of range estimates happening, but that's an easy thing to suss out.
Being facetious with that, but, the point is still there. The next gen of just ordinary buyers will be less careful about how they do things. They'll charge to 100% when it says to charge to 80% (so they don't run out of charge later, etc.). They'll ignore warnings like many people ignore the check engine light.
These are just real world issues - not a ding on EVs at all. These same people will treat their ICE car no better.
BTW, I'm not making a comment on hacking the EV...just human behavioral patterns.
It's really hard to forget. Our car reminds us to charge on our phones and has a schedule of when we leave for work. Also has the cabin at the right temp ready to go. Even if you leave a door open it will send messages through the phone to remind you to close it.
You're in that upper middle class demo that can afford an EV.Medaggie said:
until you own an EV, you will not understand that charging becomes a habit. Like before I go into the house, I take my shoes off. After I drive out of the garage, I close the door. After I potty, I flush the toilet. After i brush my teeth, I wash my face.
It is really not that difficult to do. I may have forgot to charge twice in the 4 yrs I own it. No big deal b/c both times I had plenty for the next day.
The beauty of having a Tesla in a Tesla Plus ICE household is not only do I not need to pour gas BUT we drop the ICE car pouring to half. The Tesla is the 1st car to leave the garage so the ICE sits idle much more often.
I had a busy sport day, drove 200 miles, drove back home around 10pm with 20 miles left. Plugged in, woke up at 7am with 80% and 250 miles. Once you get a tesla, its hard to ever go back.
In the past, I used to pour gas on both ICE cars b/c my wife hates pouring gas. I can go close to a month without pouring gas now b/c the ICE is only used when both cars are used.
My lifestyle has improved greatly. Its like once you get a microwave, its hard to live without one.
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An EV will likely not exceed five digits on the odometer because the cost to replace the battery in the typical 10-year span of a battery life will exceed the vehicle's resale value, therefore making it economically impractical.
Other authors have all cited valid facts about the impracticality of charging these things on long trips, the stress they will add to a fragile electric grid, the lack of enthusiasm in this country for adding additional reliable energy power plants, etc. None of this has made me want to rush right out and buy an EV, but just for the sake of developing a more complete picture, let's peel another layer off the onion.
It should come as no surprise that insurance costs are also higher, not only because of their higher sticker price but because of the cost of specialty parts (including batteries), the lack of a specially-trained workforce to fix them, and the possibility that even a younger vehicle may be totaled if there was a damaged battery simply because of the cost of the battery.
Progressive Insurance sums it up nicely:But wait! There's more!Quote:
"Insurance costs for EVs and hybrid cars can be higher than for internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles largely because they can be more expensive to repair and replace. For example, a new EV battery ranges between $4,000 and $20,000 depending on the make and model of your EV, compared to $100-200 for an ICE car battery. If the battery of an EV is damaged in an accident, that's a significantly more expensive replacement cost.
On top of more expensive parts, there also aren't as many repair shops with technicians trained to fix electric vehicles versus traditional vehicles. That means those qualified facilities may charge more for repairs because of the specialized training required."
I serve on my township's Board of Advisors, with responsibility for maintaining a top-notch fire department. We keep a lot of different supplies and chemicals on hand that they may need to address in various residential and commercial situations. I asked our fire chief recently how they would handle an EV fire. His answer, because of the unique danger a battery fire poses, since there's not enough water to extinguish it, and the lack of any recommended protocol from the US Fire Administration or any other resource, is to "try to isolate it and let it burn out."
While much of the press is devoted to claiming that EV fires are rare, I have found no credible statistics that prove they are less rare than comparable ICE vehicle fires. By "comparable," I'm referring to age-corrected vehicle statistics to modern EVs, not overall statistics for vehicles of all ages which is not a fair comparison. We all know that grandpa's 1976 Cadillac with its carbureted engine and rotting rubber fuel hoses will far more likely catch fire than a 2021 fuel-injected Tacoma with stainless steel fuel lines. That being said, regardless of credible, comparable statistics of fire risk there is no argument that the consequence of an EV fire is far more severe because of the difficulty, if not the impossibility, of extinguishing it unlike an ICE vehicle fire and the length of time it will burn.
Quote:
This site works hard to claim it's no big deal, that batteries will cost less in future years, and that aftermarket competition will drive price down, but it also admits they're only good for eight years or 100,000 miles.
This assumes prices will fall dramatically and no regulations will come along to increase prices (a foreign concept in the automotive industry).Medaggie said:
All/most of the issues brought up including cost/range/repair/charging will greatly improve with time. EVs are in their infancy and ice at the end.
Even at its infancy, EVs, imo are better cars than ice in 90% of real driver situations.
Price is the big hurdle and once evs go below 30k and esp below 25k, 95% with a house will get one.
Economics will decide which is a better platform. Maintenance is hands down Evs. At price parity to lower end cars, then it's a no brainer. Once this happens, even apt complexes will add chargers fixing the home charging problem.
hph6203 said:
They are going to sell a ton of those things.
techno-ag said:You're in that upper middle class demo that can afford an EV.Medaggie said:
until you own an EV, you will not understand that charging becomes a habit. Like before I go into the house, I take my shoes off. After I drive out of the garage, I close the door. After I potty, I flush the toilet. After i brush my teeth, I wash my face.
It is really not that difficult to do. I may have forgot to charge twice in the 4 yrs I own it. No big deal b/c both times I had plenty for the next day.
The beauty of having a Tesla in a Tesla Plus ICE household is not only do I not need to pour gas BUT we drop the ICE car pouring to half. The Tesla is the 1st car to leave the garage so the ICE sits idle much more often.
I had a busy sport day, drove 200 miles, drove back home around 10pm with 20 miles left. Plugged in, woke up at 7am with 80% and 250 miles. Once you get a tesla, its hard to ever go back.
In the past, I used to pour gas on both ICE cars b/c my wife hates pouring gas. I can go close to a month without pouring gas now b/c the ICE is only used when both cars are used.
My lifestyle has improved greatly. Its like once you get a microwave, its hard to live without one.
1. You own a home.
2. You own an ICE car.
3. You can afford to indulge in an EV.
