Prices go up on some variants as previous cuts subside. I guess this blows the whole "it's high tech and that always goes down in price" argument.

https://www.autoblog.com/2024/03/01/tesla-raises-prices-of-some-model-y-vehicles-in-us/

The supercharged 5.2L should have been put in a lowered regular cab short bed F150 like the 2nd Gen Lightning. Might have been a fair fight then…

techno-ag said:

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Prices go up on some variants as previous cuts subside. I guess this blows the whole "it's high tech and that always goes down in price" argument.

https://www.autoblog.com/2024/03/01/tesla-raises-prices-of-some-model-y-vehicles-in-us/

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You guys point to falling prices as a flaw for EVs. Now rising prices are a flaw. Which is it?

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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Prices go up on some variants as previous cuts subside. I guess this blows the whole "it's high tech and that always goes down in price" argument.

https://www.autoblog.com/2024/03/01/tesla-raises-prices-of-some-model-y-vehicles-in-us/

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You guys point to falling prices as a flaw for EVs. Now rising prices are a flaw. Which is it?

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Sorry your talking point lost. Again.

Better pack design, higher voltage charging, better cell manufacturing and some disregard for the battery longevity because batteries are getting as good as they are. Long term EVs are going to be known for their durability, efficiency, and cost competitiveness relative to ICE, because there's limited number of parts and and endless number of configurations available to match product with consumer. From that stupid, but effective BYD Seagull to the next Tesla Roadster.

Discussing whether Fisker, or Lucid, or Rivian are going to survive or not is a red herring or just total lack of knowledge.

It's why when people say "no one believes EVs are going to totally replace ICE vehicles." I do. I don't think it will be by 2035, but I believe that the tipping point between ICE and EVs is a foregone conclusion and the only thing that would stop it is outright lies.


This is Tesla's battery research partner Jeff Dahn discussing how to care for current batteries and opportunities on how to build better batteries.




Personally, my hope is that Tesla's Model Y refresh includes a LMFP battery that gets 300+ miles and has V2L capabilities. If it does it will probably be the last car I ever buy and I expect it will last me 20+ years at which point I'd bet a large proportion of driving is done by computer rather than people.

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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Prices go up on some variants as previous cuts subside. I guess this blows the whole "it's high tech and that always goes down in price" argument.

https://www.autoblog.com/2024/03/01/tesla-raises-prices-of-some-model-y-vehicles-in-us/

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You guys point to falling prices as a flaw for EVs. Now rising prices are a flaw. Which is it?

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Whatever meets their arguing point at any given time. He's not attentive enough to know that it was discounted pricing announced on February 11th to induce the purchase of the Model Y, because Tesla is ramping production of their refreshed Model 3 and they didn't want to experience lower than normal sales for the quarter while production ramps.

Up tick Model Y sales to offset lower Model 3 sales until Model 3 refresh ramps and he thinks it's in any way associated with cost to produce. He doesn't know or even care to know what he's talking about. He proves it over and over again. No shame, kind of like a cultist.

Full Self Driving: after two years and a dozen recalls/updates, it's still in beta and lacks a lot to be desired.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/02/teslas-full-self-driving-beta-v11-4-7-3-over-2-years-later/

Quote:

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Lately, we have been hearing statements from Elon Musk about how good the next software version, in particular FSD V12, will be. He promised it by the end of 2023. He also promised that it would no longer be designated as a Beta version. I understand that the current version of FSD Beta has hundreds of thousands of labels inserted manually by experts which allow it to handle most situations. We hear that Tesla plans to release a complete rewrite of the software (V12) using AI (Artificial Intelligence) principals that will try to mimic how a human driver drives. However, those of us who have experienced over 10 versions of the software and have seen a number of serious issues persist will not be waiting with bated breath.

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That's an additional $12,000 and they'll take it away if the car's cameras sense you "misusing" FSD too often.

Quote:

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Tesla has two methods to determine if you are paying attention to the road: 1) You have to apply a little torque to the steering wheel. 2) There is a camera below the mirror looking at your face. If you look at the navigation screen to your right or down at your phone too long, it will ding you. If you continue to fail to apply torque to the steering wheel for too long, or look away from the road for too long, or exceed 85 mph, you will get what is called a "forced disengagement." You will know you have a forced disengagement because neither FSD Beta nor Autosteer nor Smart Cruise will work until you bring your car to a complete stop, put it in park, and start up again. If you get 5 forced disengagements, you will lose access to FSD Beta for two weeks. Then the forced disengagement counter is reset to zero.

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No thanks.

You can defeat that with a $10 cheat device from amazon

Teslag said:

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We are typical EV owners. We rarely take it on road trips and use it mainly for commuting. You can see how often we use a supercharger.





Non issue

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The issue is that frequent very high voltage fast charging will increase over time and this is destructive toward battery longevity as second hand buyers will not be able to track it. Your current "usage" is not really pertinent to the point as such. Hth.

nortex97 said:

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Teslag said:

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We are typical EV owners. We rarely take it on road trips and use it mainly for commuting. You can see how often we use a supercharger.





Non issue

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The issue is that frequent very high voltage fast charging will increase over time and this is destructive toward battery longevity as second hand buyers will not be able to track it. Your current "usage" is not really pertinent to the point as such. Hth.

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I see you didn't see the article above where they have studied it and shown that it doesn't affect the battery longevity. Maybe it is all of those rare earth metals that you think are in the battery that prevent that.

nortex97 said:

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Teslag said:

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We are typical EV owners. We rarely take it on road trips and use it mainly for commuting. You can see how often we use a supercharger.





Non issue

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The issue is that frequent very high voltage fast charging will increase over time and this is destructive toward battery longevity as second hand buyers will not be able to track it. Your current "usage" is not really pertinent to the point as such. Hth.

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But that's just it. It won't be frequent since most owners will charge at home.

"Most" doesn't impact the uncertainty about how the battery has been degraded by rapid charging cycles. It's at best am and rode.

nortex97 said:

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"Most" doesn't impact the uncertainty about how the battery has been degraded by rapid charging cycles. It's at best am and rode.

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You can easily check the battery condition and current degradation from the control panel. It's not a secret.

Watch this.

Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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"Most" doesn't impact the uncertainty about how the battery has been degraded by rapid charging cycles. It's at best am and rode.

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You can easily check the battery condition and current degradation from the control panel. It's not a secret.

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And there are endless forums/tricks to hide actual battery data when selling as we are all well aware.

nortex97 said:

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Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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"Most" doesn't impact the uncertainty about how the battery has been degraded by rapid charging cycles. It's at best am and rode.

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You can easily check the battery condition and current degradation from the control panel. It's not a secret.

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And there are endless forums/tricks to hide actual battery data when selling as we are all well aware.

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How do you hide battery degradation when selling a Tesla?

Let's say I'm going to sell it tomorrow. Where do I go on the internet to find out to change the degradation display?

You write it off

/Kramer

"How do I know that a seller changed the oil in their car as scheduled?"


*Difference being that these vehicles are designed to charge at those rates, and no vehicle is designed to drive 200,000 miles without an oil change.

If you won't watch the whole video, watch this section.



The takeaway is not so much charging speed, but rather depth of charge or discharge. Charge to ~75% normally, charge frequently (i.e. daily), and the battery will last longer than the car. Supercharge when you need to and your battery will still last longer than the car, just don't do it past 80% frequently.

Basically for those following along, Teslas have a built in service mode where you can check battery health as seen below.

Nortex is suggesting that Tesla owners can simply hack their vehicles and change the results. And that we are all "well aware" of this. So I'd like him to share how I do that? Or at least where I can find out how.

Numbers were from 2014 battery tech. Below is the video referenced, interesting test on single crystal electrode at 28:30

The issue is there are whole hoops a buyer should rightfully go through to see if the battery data is accurate, including driving it for a while and using a third party app. There's no telling really if an owner properly charged it 'regularly' or just reconditioned/reset the battery stats when selling it, or charged it to 100 percent regularly etc. And heck, even if it's fine when bought used initially, when getting it serviced Tesla might just decide to hack off 80 miles of range down the road as a ransom. There was also a reddit discussion thread about how to hide a battery error in the software when going to car max etc. but I can't remember where it was. About a year ago.

nortex97 said:

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The issue is there are whole hoops a buyer should rightfully go through to see if the battery data is accurate, including driving it for a while and using a third party app. There's no telling really if an owner properly charged it 'regularly' or just reconditioned/reset the battery stats when selling it, or charged it to 100 percent regularly etc. And heck, even if it's fine when bought used initially, when getting it serviced Tesla might just decide to hack off 80 miles of range down the road as a ransom. There was also a reddit discussion thread about how to hide a battery error in the software when going to car max etc. but I can't remember where it was. About a year ago.

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Scams to hide issues with used cars are not new. There are a lot more that can be done on older cars without relatively hard to cheat computer systems. The odometer roll back (or some disconnect it while they drive), disconnect the check engine lights, oversized fuses to stop tripped electrical issue, heavy weight oil to temporarily stop a leak and noise, etc.

Anyone buying a used car that doesn't come with a rock solid warranty better have a trusted mechanic due a detailed inspection and even that isn't a guarantee because their are unfortunately a lot of scam artists out there.

The key differentiator with BEV's is that the 'trust' in the $20-40K-to-replace battery can be hidden using software/tricks and there is no similarly expensive critical component in an ICE vehicle constituting often half or more of the vehicle's value.

nortex97 said:

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The issue is there are whole hoops a buyer should rightfully go through to see if the battery data is accurate, including driving it for a while and using a third party app. There's no telling really if an owner properly charged it 'regularly' or just reconditioned/reset the battery stats when selling it, or charged it to 100 percent regularly etc. And heck, even if it's fine when bought used initially, when getting it serviced Tesla might just decide to hack off 80 miles of range down the road as a ransom. There was also a reddit discussion thread about how to hide a battery error in the software when going to car max etc. but I can't remember where it was. About a year ago.

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One of your articles is from 2021, which was before Tesla released the service mode update to check battery health. Like I say, always check a Nortex link.

You can not alter the Tesla battery health results to display anything else and one can easily check the health of the battery prior to purchase through the service mode if they are so inclined

nortex97 said:

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The key differentiator with BEV's is that the 'trust' in the $20-40K-to-replace battery can be hidden using software/tricks and there is no similarly expensive critical component in an ICE vehicle constituting often half or more of the vehicle's value.

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Not with a Tesla. It simply can't be done.

Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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The issue is there are whole hoops a buyer should rightfully go through to see if the battery data is accurate, including driving it for a while and using a third party app. There's no telling really if an owner properly charged it 'regularly' or just reconditioned/reset the battery stats when selling it, or charged it to 100 percent regularly etc. And heck, even if it's fine when bought used initially, when getting it serviced Tesla might just decide to hack off 80 miles of range down the road as a ransom. There was also a reddit discussion thread about how to hide a battery error in the software when going to car max etc. but I can't remember where it was. About a year ago.

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One of your articles is from 2021, which was before Tesla released the service mode update to check battery health. Like I say, always check a Nortex link.

You can not alter the Tesla battery health results to display anything else and one can easily check the health of the battery prior to purchase through the service mode if they are so inclined

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Where on the menu do you see battery health/degradation? I haven't found it.

hph6203 said:

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has V2L capabilities.

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V2L or V2H is going to be standard and is going to increase adoption
Personally looking at building a small country house that can function off grid and the V2H EVs like the Nissan Lead seem like a very cost effective way to get a home battery pack that also serves as a second vehicle

JamesE4 said:

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Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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The issue is there are whole hoops a buyer should rightfully go through to see if the battery data is accurate, including driving it for a while and using a third party app. There's no telling really if an owner properly charged it 'regularly' or just reconditioned/reset the battery stats when selling it, or charged it to 100 percent regularly etc. And heck, even if it's fine when bought used initially, when getting it serviced Tesla might just decide to hack off 80 miles of range down the road as a ransom. There was also a reddit discussion thread about how to hide a battery error in the software when going to car max etc. but I can't remember where it was. About a year ago.

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One of your articles is from 2021, which was before Tesla released the service mode update to check battery health. Like I say, always check a Nortex link.

You can not alter the Tesla battery health results to display anything else and one can easily check the health of the battery prior to purchase through the service mode if they are so inclined

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Where on the menu do you see battery health/degradation? I haven't found it.

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Go into the software menu in the control panel. Hold your finger down over the Model "XYZ3" text under your cars image. Then type "service" to enter service mode when the dialogue menu appears. Then in service mode select battery health test. The car will completely deplete itself and then recharge. You'll get a full readout of the battery health and all HV components

Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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The key differentiator with BEV's is that the 'trust' in the $20-40K-to-replace battery can be hidden using software/tricks and there is no similarly expensive critical component in an ICE vehicle constituting often half or more of the vehicle's value.

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Not with a Tesla. It simply can't be done.

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If there's software, it CAN be hacked.

There's a reason cybersecurity is such a huge thing nowadays...

Heck, I wrote a paper last year that dealt with aviation cybersecurity and one of the examples was a researcher (White Hat) that showed he could use an exploit in the Inflight Entertainment system of a commercial airline to potentially alter flight deck data...

Don't think ANYTHING related to software is safe.

But Nortex said we can already do it and it's easy to find on the internet. In fact we were all "well aware" of it.


Then didn't show us how. Or tell us where. So until this fantasy comes true. It can't be done. And when it happens Tesla will just patch the exploit with a software update like they always do.

And that was to support his other ludicrous point that EV's being able to charge way faster than critics would have ever believed just a couple years ago is actually a bad thing

Teslag said:

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But Nortex said we can already do it and it's easy to find on the internet. In fact we were all "well aware" of it.


Then didn't show us how. Or tell us where. So until this fantasy comes true. It can't be done. And when it happens Tesla will just patch the exploit with a software update like they always do.

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Oh I know...but.

However, even if the exploit gets patched, someone will find a new exploit. It's a cat and mouse game.

Not saying that people often do this to mask battery life though, or that it's well known...

Of course and no one really disputes that. But Nortex was trying to say that it's easily and readily available now. And posted a 2021 video as his proof. Yet Tesla didn't release the battery health check until 2023.