Build It said:

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You folks all miss the point. You all really like arguing. The fact is Tesla makes a 2.3 second car. This makes me want one. No other big green reason.

2.3 seconds! I love my Ford Truck despite their bull**** supply issues, but seriously. 2.3 seconds. Who doesn't love that.

Politics be damned. I like going fast. I don't own one but really trying to convince the wife she needs one.

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But some people can't see past the issues of the mandate to understand there are a lot of people like you that love the performance. If you did get one, go for Plaid mode. You might as well get to 60 in under 2 seconds. Just warn your passengers when you floor it to make sure their heads are against the head rest. You don't want to be sued for causing whip lash.

Fast forward to 5:25 to get past the ad

Double Diamond said:

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I don't care about the politics. I don't care what liberals or communist are doing to you. The fact is electric is here. It's coming fast. And you all sound just like the horse and buggy crowd saying it'll never work these gas powered cars.

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Because Biden and European governments are mandating it, unnecessarily. It's government interference. Let the market take us there. Let this happen organically and everyone gets on board when it makes sense to.

And if the future is now we better do something about future proofing our grid right now.

YouBet said:

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Double Diamond said:

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I don't care about the politics. I don't care what liberals or communist are doing to you. The fact is electric is here. It's coming fast. And you all sound just like the horse and buggy crowd saying it'll never work these gas powered cars.

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Because Biden and European governments are mandating it, unnecessarily. It's government interference. Let the market take us there. Let this happen organically and everyone gets on board when it makes sense to.

And if the future is now we better do something about future proofing our grid right now.

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We need to future proof the grid but vehicles are far from the biggest reason to do it. Modern society doesn't function without electricity and we don't really have the capability to live in it the way they did in the 1800s and before.

Kansas Kid said:

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YouBet said:

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Double Diamond said:

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I don't care about the politics. I don't care what liberals or communist are doing to you. The fact is electric is here. It's coming fast. And you all sound just like the horse and buggy crowd saying it'll never work these gas powered cars.

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Because Biden and European governments are mandating it, unnecessarily. It's government interference. Let the market take us there. Let this happen organically and everyone gets on board when it makes sense to.

And if the future is now we better do something about future proofing our grid right now.

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We need to future proof the grid but vehicles are far from the biggest reason to do it. Modern society doesn't function without electricity and we don't really have the capability to live in it the way they did in the 1800s and before.

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Yes, but mass EV adoption is just one more unnecessary strain on the system. I do find it encouraging that we are more actively pursuing nuclear...finally. The problem is that nuclear is years away from adding value to the grid.

There are a number of utilities and engineers that have pointed out EVs can potentially improve grid reliability as they flatten load demand by mostly charging at night assuming people have the ability to charge where they live. Many utilities offer time of day rates to further encourage charging during off peak times.

"The convenience and flexibility of electric vehicle charging actually provides a great opportunity to improve grid resilience," said Morelli, echoing a common observation among utility officials who note EVs' ability to charge during non-peak times, as well as the growing prevalence of energy storage, able to offload power when the grid is feeling stressed.

"EVs are flexible load. And because they are flexible load, they have the ability to improve grid resilience," said Chanel Parson, director of electrification at Southern California Edison, another of the large California electric utilities.

Kansas Kid said:

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There are a number of utilities and engineers that have pointed out EVs can potentially improve grid reliability as they flatten load demand by mostly charging at night assuming people have the ability to charge where they live. Many utilities offer time of day rates to further encourage charging during off peak times.

"The convenience and flexibility of electric vehicle charging actually provides a great opportunity to improve grid resilience," said Morelli, echoing a common observation among utility officials who note EVs' ability to charge during non-peak times, as well as the growing prevalence of energy storage, able to offload power when the grid is feeling stressed.

"EVs are flexible load. And because they are flexible load, they have the ability to improve grid resilience," said Chanel Parson, director of electrification at Southern California Edison, another of the large California electric utilities.

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Well, we are going to find out, aren't we. With mass adoption (a high percentage of drivers are relying on EV), do off-peak times still remain off-peak times if everyone is tapping the grid at night just like they do in the day? When load gets flattened, then you will no longer see incentives to charge at night.

Better hope these folks are correct.

Tesla Model Y tested on a 16 hour trip from Chicago to New York...aside from looking hideous, even with superchargers they just don't compare to ICE's.

"You know, I have a little bit of a bias. I like electric cars. It's been a fun drive, but that white-knuckle situation with knowing if you were going to run out of charge or not," Flock stressed.

"Do your homework" was Flock's major takeaway from the journey.

"The technology is cool, but you better figure it out and don't trust the range estimates," he noted.

According to Tesla's navigation, the trip from Chicago to New York would be about 16 hours compared to the 13-hour trip for a gas-powered vehicle.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/ev-excursion-chicago-new-york-tesla-tests-charging-effectiveness


Tesla Signal Activate!

Seems like even a person that that doesn't know the name of the vehicle they're driving can manage to make a long distance trip in a Tesla.

“We’ve rented this Tesla Model W”

💀😂 pic.twitter.com/o9D7l5iUZ1

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 7, 2024

Top spec E8 starts at $32k USD.

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 7, 2024

For those unfamiliar. That range is the WLTP test, EPA would be around 300 miles. EVs are going to be cheaper than ICE.

You can’t make this up

Tesla ended 2023 at exactly 4.20% market share.

(Source: Kelly Blue Book) pic.twitter.com/p2NuWXyr3K

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) January 8, 2024

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You can’t make this up

Tesla ended 2023 at exactly 4.20% market share.

(Source: Kelly Blue Book) pic.twitter.com/p2NuWXyr3K

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) January 8, 2024

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At least we know how he will celebrate.

hph6203 said:

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Top spec E8 starts at $32k USD.

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 7, 2024

For those unfamiliar. That range is the WLTP test, EPA would be around 300 miles. EVs are going to be cheaper than ICE.

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I was not aware that Volvo was owned by China now. They are absolutely on the no buy list going forward.

tk for tu juan said:

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FYI

Elon, because of Space-X has drug tests done periodically...he's never failed a test!

hph6203 said:

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Top spec E8 starts at $32k USD.

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 7, 2024

For those unfamiliar. That range is the WLTP test, EPA would be around 300 miles. EVs are going to be cheaper than ICE.

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EVs will be for LOLpoors. The rest of us will keep driving ICE.

Teslas don't go as far as they once said they do.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-y-model-x-model-s-range-estimations-reduced-doj-probe/amp/

Quote:

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It turns out, however, that those range figures that helped Tesla sell so many cars might not have been accurate. Tesla has been called out by Reuters for exaggerating the range of its vehicles. While Tesla has remained mostly silent against those allegations, the automaker just quietly adjusted the expected range for several vehicles on its website. The estimated range numbers for the Model X, Model Y, and Model S have all been reduced. The change was quickly picked up on by Electrek via The Verge.

The Model Y Performance now shows a 285 mile range, which is down from its previous estimate of 303 miles. The Model Y Long Range now shows a 310 mile range which is 20 miles down from its previous 330 mile estimate. The Model X Plaid range sees a marginal drop from 333 miles of range to 326 miles. Tesla's reduction of the Model S Plaid's range (with the 19-inch wheel option) by 37 miles marks the biggest cut, with its estimated range dropping from 396 miles to 359 miles.

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EV owners leave a lot more 1 star reviews;

Quote:

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It's not a great time to be an EV consumer, as the retail experience leaves a lot to be desired. According to a new study, buyers in the market for an EV are leaving a lot of one-star reviews at dealerships. However, removing them from the equation only increases the ratio of negative reviews.

Widewail, which makes customer review and reputation management products, looked at more than 800,000 Google reviews of both dealerships and retail locations, and found that EV buyers have a lot more to complain about than their internal combustion counterparts.

Across the entire industry, seven percent of reviews left for dealerships had a one-star rating. EV buyers and owners left twice as many (14 percent) one-star reviews. Meanwhile, those dealing with a direct to consumer retailer, such as Tesla or Rivian, left a one-star review in 25 percent of cases.

"Given Tesla's strong brand, high virality, and top marks from trusted consumer media, it was surprising to see that their Google reviews revealed such a high percentage of unsatisfied customers," said Matt Murray, CEO of Widewail. "More surprising was that even EV buyers from traditional dealerships left substantially more negative reviews."

While it's clear that a higher proportion of EV buyers are being frustrated by the people who sell them, there are some mitigating factors for Tesla, Rivian, and their ilk. For starters, EV drivers leave fewer reviews.

For example, Tesla's retail and service centers average just 2.6 reviews per month, as compared to the industry average of 9.6 per month. That tends to lower average review rates, as it highlights customers who have had bad experiences.

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"Surprising."

"However, the numbers indicate that 96 percent of all EV owners are so satisfied with their vehicles that they will only buy another EV, according to an AAA study. According to that same study, once people buy an EV, 43 percent of them drive more than they did when they had an ICE vehicle.

Despite 78 percent of EV owners also having ICE vehicles at home, they tend to favor their EV; over 85 percent say they do the majority of their driving using their EV."

I think the 96% is high because a lot of EV owners will have both powertrains as shown by the second paragraph. I also think satisfaction is lower this year with the new vehicles from the legacy automakers which are clearly lacking with some buyers.

This article also reinforces many comments about the need to be able to charge at home.
https://www.realsimple.com/work-life/money/money-planning/electric-car-costs

Devastating.

techno-ag said:

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Devastating.

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I know. Google reviews have such a great track record of accuracy. Go ask a Christian baker in Colorado.

"Unlimited raves or rants available for a fee, and Big Tech isn't keeping up, say critics".

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6033859

This photo below is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car. To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be extracted from sea water)
-- 5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made as a byproduct… pic.twitter.com/1ykPe0SefX

— GayPatriot 🇺🇸 🇮🇱 🌈 (@GayPatriot) January 9, 2024

Quote:

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This photo below is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car. To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be extracted from sea water)
-- 5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made as a byproduct of processing copper and nickel ores. It is the most difficult and expensive material to obtain for a battery.)
-- 3 tons nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore

You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt

To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic
-- 112 pounds of graphite

The Caterpillar 994A is used to move the earth to obtain the minerals needed for this battery. The Caterpillar consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.

The bulk of necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labor in Africa is done by children. When you buy an electric car, China profits most.
The 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost). The cost of Tesla batteries are:

Model 3 -- $14,000+ (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000+ (Car MSRP $79,990)

It takes 7 years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the battery is 10 years (average). Only in the last 3 years do you start to reduce your carbon footprint, but then the batteries must be replaced and you lose all gains made.

But by all means, get an electric car. Just don't sell me on how awesome you are for the environment. Or for human rights.

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The more we learn about EVs the less likely folks are to buy these environmental disasters. Seriously, all the libs can think about is tailpipe emissions.

techno-ag said:

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The more we learn about EVs the less likely folks are to buy these environmental disasters. Seriously, all the libs can think about is tailpipe emissions.

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Just imagine when they realize all cars are enviro disasters. Oh what will we do?

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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The more we learn about EVs the less likely folks are to buy these environmental disasters. Seriously, all the libs can think about is tailpipe emissions.

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Just imagine when they realize all cars are enviro disasters. Oh what will we do?

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Maybe in general, but EVs are particularly egregious. Read the post a couple above yours.

techno-ag said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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The more we learn about EVs the less likely folks are to buy these environmental disasters. Seriously, all the libs can think about is tailpipe emissions.

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Just imagine when they realize all cars are enviro disasters. Oh what will we do?

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Maybe in general, but EVs are particularly egregious. Read the post a couple above yours.

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You mean the post that talks about how much ore is moved to make lithium when a lot of it is from using brining which doesn't involve pulling ore from the ground (yes, the mine in Nevada will use ore extraction but you guys only focus on current supplies)? Also the post that doesn't mention that over half of Tesla vehicles produced today don't use cobalt or nickel yet the gasoline or diesel in your car requires cobalt to be used so if your concern is child labor in the Congo, go buy a standard range Tesla? It also doesn't show how much steel and aluminum is used to make an ICE so it there a net difference?

It also implies that almost all of the money is made in refining the metals which is what China does. The reality is most of the money goes to the extractors of the minerals which for the most part isn't China (see oil as further proof where the bulk of the money is made in extraction and not refining). Look where a lot of money goes for in producing oil in the world. A large amount of it is in countries I trust less than China but maybe you trust Iran, Russia, Qatar, Saudi and the like more which is your right. EVs need oil but they need a lot less than ICE. You can say the US is energy independent but how about the rest of the world?

Will EVs save the environment? No, but they won't destroy it either or are you suddenly one of those that think the environment is on the brink. All transportation requires a large quantity of metals, water, trucking, etc.

I stand by the reason to buy an EV is because you like the performance, the convenience of filling up overnight, you think they save you money over the life of the car, you have seen the safety stats and think they are safer, or any other reason you want. It isn't to save the environment but don't think an ICE will either.

The GayPatriot's research is above reproach!


Have you done any investigation into the total amount of environmental impact caused by the material extraction to build a gas vehicle or the environmental impact of the material necessary to build and maintain oil extraction and refinement? Or the ongoing maintenance of a gas vehicle?

No. Because it's not the environment that you care about with respect to vehicle technology. In that we have something in common, but I'm honest about it.

hph6203 said:

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The GayPatriot's research is above reproach!


Have you done any investigation into the total amount of environmental impact caused by the material extraction to build a gas vehicle or the environmental impact of the material necessary to build and maintain oil extraction and refinement? Or the ongoing maintenance of a gas vehicle?

No. Because it's not the environment that you care about with respect to vehicle technology. In that we have something in common, but I'm honest about it.

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Hey, he is a card carrying member of Green Peace. So is Nortex.

What will be interesting is how batteries will be recycled as EVs reach end of life. Given the volume of raw materials, you would think the juice is worth the squeeze to reuse all those materials. I suspect it can have a material effect on the volume of minerals that need to be mined at some point.

MaxPower said:

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What will be interesting is how batteries will be recycled as EVs reach end of life. Given the volume of raw materials, you would think the juice is worth the squeeze to reuse all those materials. I suspect it can have a material effect on the volume of minerals that need to be mined at some point.

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A lot of people already working on it and doing it. Nortex will be on shortly to highlight that about 90% is done in China today but the US and Europe are adding capabilities which haven't been needed historically due to the low volume of spent EV batteries. Due to high costs to transport spent batteries, smaller, regional recycling centers will likely be needed.
"Companies leading the domestic battery recycling industry show high material recovery rates of 9598%."
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/24/ev-battery-recycling-jumping-in/amp/

techno-ag said:

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hph6203 said:

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Top spec E8 starts at $32k USD.

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 7, 2024

For those unfamiliar. That range is the WLTP test, EPA would be around 300 miles. EVs are going to be cheaper than ICE.

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EVs will be for LOLpoors. The rest of us will keep driving ICE.

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What do you mean "will"? Thats exactly what we have now.

What about ISD transportation costs, battery-electric Type A school buses cost around $250,000, compared to $50,000 to $65,000 for diesel or LPG versions. For larger Type C or Type D buses, electric models range from $320,000 to $440,000, while diesel/LPG versions cost about $100,000. Guess who's going to make up that gap???

Foreverconservative said:

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What about ISD transportation costs, battery-electric Type A school buses cost around $250,000, compared to $50,000 to $65,000 for diesel or LPG versions. For larger Type C or Type D buses, electric models range from $320,000 to $440,000, while diesel/LPG versions cost about $100,000. Guess who's going to make up that gap???

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Based on current technology and costs, EVs don't make any sense at all for busses.

Kansas Kid said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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What about ISD transportation costs, battery-electric Type A school buses cost around $250,000, compared to $50,000 to $65,000 for diesel or LPG versions. For larger Type C or Type D buses, electric models range from $320,000 to $440,000, while diesel/LPG versions cost about $100,000. Guess who's going to make up that gap???

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Based on current technology and costs, EVs don't make any sense at all for busses.

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That doesn't stop them though.

https://www.wral.com/amp/21228427/

Quote:

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More North Carolina school buses are going electric.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Clean School Bus Grant Program is giving $26.7 million in federal funds to buy 114 electric school buses, Gov. Roy Cooper's office announced Tuesday.

…
The money comes from more than $1 billion announced by the EPA on Tuesday for electric buses. It's the second round of funding for the program, after North Carolina received funding for 31 electric buses in 2022. In total nationwide, the EPA has provided $1.8 billion toward 5,103 electric school buses to 652 school systems.

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I can't believe this thread is still going.

Last weekend, we took my Buddy's fully charged Model Y for a 190mile round trip golf in CA bay area. We made it 170 miles down to 2% charge. We had to inconveniently exit the HWY to charge.

For me, my time is valuable and I would never sit at a tesla charging station staring at other tesla drivers. And in CA where I live, PG&E rate is over 45 cents per kwh... And it takes how much to fully charge a Y? 80kw?? Ain't cheap.

Not worth it for my life style.