Range estimates cut to line up with reality (and avoid further lawsuits probably).

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/cars/news-blog/tesla-quietly-cuts-range-estimates-for-some-models-44504488

EV charging times are…not ideal, in real-world conditions still I guess:

Quote:

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An intriguing study out of the U.S. has shed new light on the public charging habits of EV owners in
the United States, revealing that consumers spend far longer plugged into free charging stations than they do paid alternatives.

The study from Energetics analyzed 2.4 million charging sessions over three years ending June 30, 2023, revealing the average paid fast-charging session at a non-Tesla charger was 42 minutes. When factoring in Tesla Superchargers, the average charging time dropped to 31 minutes.

By comparison, the average free public charging session typically takes 1 hour and 18 minutes. Data from EVSession, as reported by Auto News, indicate that the average charging time at a paid non-Tesla fast charger hit nearly 40 minutes in December, despite averaging around 36 minutes in June. Contributing to the slower charging times were the colder weather, improved charging station amenities, and larger EV batteries.

---

The non-Tesla charging stations suck. There is a reason a lot of car companies are switching to the Tesla charging plug because without it, there cars will be almost impossible to use on long distance trips or for local use if you can't charge at home.

You don't think improvements will be made?

Double Diamond said:

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You don't think improvements will be made?

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Probably but it will take a long time which will cost the legacy guys a lot of sales if they don't change. Tesla's network is sizable, highly reliable and they continue to make improvements. You can use an adapter if you still want to use the non-Tesla chargers but given how bad they are, I bet a lot of people won't buy the adapters.

techno-ag said:

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Another day, another 1.6 million Teslas recalled, in China for an autopilot software update.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/01/05/tesla-recalls-over-1point6-million-cars-in-china-over-autopilot-locks.html

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"recalled"

Quote:

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The problems can be fixed through a free over-the-air software update

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Just jump in your Tesla in Orange Texas and stay on I-10 and drive to the Tesla Supercharging Station in West Towne Marketplace in El Paso TX. When you can do that in 12 hrs, then we can talk, until then stop wasting time and tax money, on this pipe dream-money grab.

Your example does not reflect the driving habits of most Americans

Teslag said:

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Your example does not reflect the driving habits of most Americans

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neither does your consistent obtuse posting so what

Many of you don't seem to understand that the future is now. You sound like the people screaming about getting off of horse and buggy.

Double Diamond said:

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Many of you don't seem to understand that the future is now. You sound like the people screaming about getting off of horse and buggy.

---

They didn't set mountains of tax dollars on fire to get off that horse and buggy. Goo ole American capitalism did. Stop subsidizing green companies and see how long this scam stays afloat.

The greenies big lie about doing away with fossil fuels is so much BS. Gas and diesel are pimples on a hogs butt. Unless the elites are willing to live like the Amish it's all a load of crap.

I don't care about the politics. I don't care what liberals or communist are doing to you. The fact is electric is here. It's coming fast. And you all sound just like the horse and buggy crowd saying it'll never work these gas powered cars.

We subsidize oil.

Foreverconservative said:

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Double Diamond said:

---

Many of you don't seem to understand that the future is now. You sound like the people screaming about getting off of horse and buggy.

---

They didn't set mountains of tax dollars on fire to get off that horse and buggy. Goo ole American capitalism did. Stop subsidizing green companies and see how long this scam stays afloat.

The greenies big lie about doing away with fossil fuels is so much BS. Gas and diesel are pimples on a hogs butt. Unless the elites are willing to live like the Amish it's all a load of crap.

---

Just like when we lit money on fire bailing out the automakers in the great financial crisis. This country has an unfortunate history of bailing out and subsidizing many industries rather than let the market decide winners and losers. Stop subsidizing all companies.

Double Diamond said:

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We subsidize oil.

---

Sheldon Whitehouse is that you?

Tax breaks aren't subsides, regardless of the liberal talking points. Letting a company keep their own money is different from flat out cutting a hot check to companies to produce a product they can't profit from otherwise.

Tesla lost tax credits from 2019 to 2022 and managed to be profitable. Make a car people want, in this case the most popular car in America, and you don't need government money.

Kansas Kid said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Double Diamond said:

---

Many of you don't seem to understand that the future is now. You sound like the people screaming about getting off of horse and buggy.

---

They didn't set mountains of tax dollars on fire to get off that horse and buggy. Goo ole American capitalism did. Stop subsidizing green companies and see how long this scam stays afloat.

The greenies big lie about doing away with fossil fuels is so much BS. Gas and diesel are pimples on a hogs butt. Unless the elites are willing to live like the Amish it's all a load of crap.

---

Just like when we lit money on fire bailing out the automakers in the great financial crisis. This country has an unfortunate history of bailing out and subsidizing many industries rather than let the market decide winners and losers. Stop subsidizing all companies.

---

Ford didn't get bailed out and it was Henry Ford that retired the horse and buggy business. Before Ford produced affordable cars onlt the elites had them. Fast forward to the big bailout, Ford stood alone as GM and Chrysler were bailed out, interesting coincidence

Teslag said:

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Tesla lost tax credits from 2019 to 2022 and managed to be profitable. Make a car people want, in this case the most popular car in America, and you don't need government money.

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You've pushed this lie before but carry on......

Double Diamond said:

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We subsidize oil.

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Oh, FFS....no. no, we don't.

Tesla is the most popular car in the country. How's this a lie?

Foreverconservative said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Double Diamond said:

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Many of you don't seem to understand that the future is now. You sound like the people screaming about getting off of horse and buggy.

---

They didn't set mountains of tax dollars on fire to get off that horse and buggy. Goo ole American capitalism did. Stop subsidizing green companies and see how long this scam stays afloat.

The greenies big lie about doing away with fossil fuels is so much BS. Gas and diesel are pimples on a hogs butt. Unless the elites are willing to live like the Amish it's all a load of crap.

---

Just like when we lit money on fire bailing out the automakers in the great financial crisis. This country has an unfortunate history of bailing out and subsidizing many industries rather than let the market decide winners and losers. Stop subsidizing all companies.

---

Ford didn't get bailed out and it was Henry Ford that retired the horse and buggy business. Before Ford produced affordable cars onlt the elites had them. Fast forward to the big bailout, Ford stood alone as GM and Chrysler were bailed out, interesting coincidence

---

They took a loan from the government and I think we all know the government loans are at market which is why they step in when private lenders won't do it.

In September 2009, Ford entered into an agreement with the Department of Energy and borrowed $5.9 billion as part of a loan program created to finance automotive projects designed to help vehicles built in the U.S. meet higher mileage requirements and lessen U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

Ford didn't take the big bailouts that GM and Chrysler did but the reality is the auto industry has been subsidized as well. End them all.

Double Diamond said:

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Tesla is the most popular car in the country. How's this a lie?

---

nevermind

Let them keep their money. Jeez I'd love to keep my money.

Foreverconservative said:

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Double Diamond said:

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We subsidize oil.

---

Sheldon Whitehouse is that you?

Tax breaks aren't subsides, regardless of the liberal talking points. Letting a company keep their own money is different from flat out cutting a hot check to companies to produce a product they can't profit from otherwise.

---

If I buy an EV and get a $7,500 tax credit, that must not be a subsidy because I am just getting to keep my own money. I guess Biden should have written the code to exempt all EV makers from all taxes forever because that wouldn't be a subsidy.

Kansas Kid said:

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Foreverconservative said:

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Double Diamond said:

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We subsidize oil.

---

Sheldon Whitehouse is that you?

Tax breaks aren't subsides, regardless of the liberal talking points. Letting a company keep their own money is different from flat out cutting a hot check to companies to produce a product they can't profit from otherwise.

---

If I buy an EV and get a $7,500 tax credit, that must not be a subsidy because I am just getting to keep my own money. I guess Biden should have written the code to exempt all EV makers from all taxes forever because that wouldn't be a subsidy.

---

Well KK do you actually think Big Oil or the Big Three in Detroit are exempt from ll taxes?

I have zero issues with you or anyone getting a tax break to buy your EV. I do have an issue with the USGov giving multi billion dollar grants and flat out hot checks to build EVs Windmills Solar farms or ICE Cars. Grants are subsides whether that other dishonest poster wants to admit it or not, so are cash influxes.

If they want to give tax break solely, have at it.

That idiot Biden just granted billions to that stupid train to nowhere in CA just so he can say he created some "Good Paying Union Jobs". That train that was suppose to be $16 billion originally was shut down after it exceeded $170 billion and wasn't even half way finished. That money he just threw at them to but votes in a deep blue state he'll win easily, will build a few more miles and might get it past the halfway mark.

Look I don't want to derail this worthless thread anymore than I already have but I'll close this portion of the discussion with this, In the early seventies Delaware's corporation laws and statues were in line with business laws in other states. But a certain Senator from that state began pushing new laws for hs home state to adopt that made huge loopholes for big corporations to get out of paying higher taxes like other states. Today more than 65% of all Fortune 500 companies and more than half of all U.S. publicly-traded companies are incorporated in the state of Delaware, and more startups are incorporating in Delaware every day. Those that aren't incorporated in Delaware are incorporated in Nevada that also adopted similar laws. FUnny thing about that whole setup in Delaware is that now former Senator's favorite saying is, "They aren't paying their fare share" when he literally crafted them the sanctuary to get out of paying it. Liberals lie when the truth sounds better.

Double Diamond said:

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I don't care about the politics. I don't care what liberals or communist are doing to you. The fact is electric is here. It's coming fast. And you all sound just like the horse and buggy crowd saying it'll never work these gas powered cars.

---

The horse and buggy analogy is one of the weakest arguments electric car proponents use. Apples and oranges

I hate all of the handouts, grants and other distortions of the market. I didn't say the automakers don't pay taxes, I took issue with the handouts and government loans they took. I also stand by targeted tax credits and breaks given to individuals or private industry are handouts. I'm sure Nortex and others view the $7,500 tax credit as a handout to EVs that need to end and I agree with them.

Btw, a lot of the subsidies for windmills and solar are in the form of sizable tax credits.

Double Diamond said:

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You don't think improvements will be made?

---

The issue of charging EV's will remain, period, and that also includes maintaining a charge if they are outside in the heat/cold. The intricate cooling/heating systems breaking down somewhere along the lines are where the thermal run away (fire) hazards really come from. Over time, that's the risk of owning/operating one, especially if kept in a dwelling structure.

The battery technology could improve tangibly if dry/solid state batteries can finally be produced;

Quote:

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Solid-state batteries promise to deliver much greater range, shorter charging times, lower costs, and improved safety for electric vehicles, though hurdles remain to getting the technology ready for the rough requirements of automotive use.

One of those hurdles has been durability, but Volkswagen Group in its latest testing of a solid-state battery cell supplied by U.S. startup QuantumScape, which counts the automaker as a major shareholder, appears to have overcome this challenge.

VW Group, via its in-house battery company PowerCo, has successfully completed more than 1,000 charging cycles of the QuantumScape battery cell, which the automaker said corresponds to a total mileage of more than 310,000 miles for a typical EV, or much more than the average life of a vehicle, regardless of its powertrain type.

According to VW Group, the cell barely aged and still had 95% of its capacity (or discharge energy retention) at the end of the test, or well above the typical industry requirement of 80%. The test, which ran for several months, took place at PowerCo's battery lab in Salzgitter, Germany.

---

We are a long ways from seeing millions of those on the road, but it is plausible they could be getting produced toward 2030, imho…and one of the keys to BEV's actually working would be such batteries and as well a robust competition among the major auto manufacturers, not limited to any single boutique brand, and much more divorced from China and the Chinese monopoly of precious metals used in the batteries.

hph6203 said:

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Does it bother you that every single post you have on this thread has an aspect of dishonesty?

Here's why Tesla's EV range numbers dropped today on their website:

The EPA now mandates all EV manufacturers that sell in the U.S. to test acceleration and ride height modes in both best and worst-case scenarios. Averaging these modes results in increased consumption and a… pic.twitter.com/FZJpVfzfjh

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 5, 2024

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You have missed the lawsuit filed against Tesla for misrepresenting their range. You see, drivers would start out with a full charge and a rosy expectation of mileage by the car. Then start driving and the real world range is considerably less.

The dishonesty lies with Tesla.

https://milberg.com/news/tesla-ev-range-lawsuit/

Yeah I dunno how Tesla (and others) being held to account by regulators as to the actual ranges of their vehicles makes you dishonest for noting it. Weird slam/claim, is all I would say.

The marketing types (generally not the smartest tools in the shed) could make their lives easier from these sorts of headlines if they'd just under-claim their ranges/MPG's, instead of the temptation to do the opposite.

techno-ag said:

---

hph6203 said:

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Does it bother you that every single post you have on this thread has an aspect of dishonesty?

Here's why Tesla's EV range numbers dropped today on their website:

The EPA now mandates all EV manufacturers that sell in the U.S. to test acceleration and ride height modes in both best and worst-case scenarios. Averaging these modes results in increased consumption and a… pic.twitter.com/FZJpVfzfjh

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 5, 2024

---

You have missed the lawsuit filed against Tesla for misrepresenting their range. You see, drivers would start out with a full charge and a rosy expectation of mileage by the car. Then start driving and the real world range is considerably less.

The dishonesty lies with Tesla.

https://milberg.com/news/tesla-ev-range-lawsuit/

---

GM was sued over EPA range
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/06/lawsuit-targets-gas-mileage-gms-older-crossovers/

Ford was sued over EPA range of the F150
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2019/07/22/1-2-billion-lawsuit-ford-falsified-f-150-fuel-economy-tests/1799619001/

Chrysler sued and settled over lying about vehicle emissions.
https://www.carpro.com/blog/fiat-chrysler-agrees-to-300m-settlement-over-diesel-probe?hs_amp=true

Dishonesty lies within the auto industry although a lot of it is lawyers trying to make a lot of money.

nortex97 said:

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Yeah I dunno how Tesla (and others) being held to account by regulators as to the actual ranges of their vehicles makes you dishonest for noting it. Weird slam/claim, is all I would say.

The marketing types (generally not the smartest tools in the shed) could make their lives easier from these sorts of headlines if they'd just under-claim their ranges/MPG's, instead of the temptation to do the opposite.

---

The methods used for this and EPA mileage is dictated by the EPA. If they don't report the results from that testing (even if they report lower), they are at risk of fines and litigation for falsifying data. To add to the stupidity, the EPA has their test done on a dyno. Last time I checked, there isn't a lot of wind resistance in a dyno lab.
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fuel-economy-and-ev-range-testing#:~:text=An%20EV%20achieves%20200%20miles,aggressive%20driving%20and%20HVAC%20use.

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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Yeah I dunno how Tesla (and others) being held to account by regulators as to the actual ranges of their vehicles makes you dishonest for noting it. Weird slam/claim, is all I would say.

The marketing types (generally not the smartest tools in the shed) could make their lives easier from these sorts of headlines if they'd just under-claim their ranges/MPG's, instead of the temptation to do the opposite.

---

The methods used for this and EPA mileage is dictated by the EPA. If they don't report the results from that testing (even if they report lower), they are at risk of fines and litigation for falsifying data. To add to the stupidity, the EPA has their test done on a dyno. Last time I checked, there isn't a lot of wind resistance in a dyno lab.
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fuel-economy-and-ev-range-testing#:~:text=An%20EV%20achieves%20200%20miles,aggressive%20driving%20and%20HVAC%20use.

---

The thing they have to do by regulation/law is put that number on a Monroney (sp?) sticker, but they don't have to run ads or otherwise provide further support to that claim, they could advertise/market it lower on their website for instance with a disclaimer ('real world range likely 250 miles in winter' testing conducted by us).

Yes, I know tesla doesn't 'advertise' (directly), and all the car marketing folks play this stupid EPA rated game. The EPA is dumb, inarguably. Don't get me started with ethanol and HP ratings either.

What number would you advertise? Real world mileage varies widely depending on the driver, where you drive, how well you maintain your car etc. Driving the same vehicle on a trip, my wife and I get 10-15% different gas mileage.

The EPA is a joke especially on issues like this.

You folks all miss the point. You all really like arguing. The fact is Tesla makes a 2.3 second car. This makes me want one. No other big green reason.

2.3 seconds! I love my Ford Truck despite their bull**** supply issues, but seriously. 2.3 seconds. Who doesn't love that.

Politics be damned. I like going fast. I don't own one but really trying to convince the wife she needs one.