The electric car design paradigm needs to change from status symbol boutique disposable/integrated which is what they have today to affordable and modular. And via a hybrid to electric adoption path.

I wouldn't consider either the Model Y or 3 to be status symbols at all at this point. They certainly aren't priced like status symbols.

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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It's a bit fascinating that there are even today a similar number of Pontiacs on the road vs. Tesla's.

Indicative as well of the fact that aging vehicle safety/reliability figures are still to come for BEV's, given Tesla's respective market share in new vehicle sales.

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I agree that it will be harder for do it yourself grease monkeys to keep EVs running after 25-30 years like the teenager next door who has a 30 year old F-150. Of course, he thinks that he wouldn't be able to do the same thing with any vehicle built in the last 10-15 years because of the increasing use of electronics and this guy is studying to be a diesel mechanic so I think he has a good idea of what he is talking about. He says the cars of today are built better but you can't MacGyver them like his old F-150 which makes sense. You see under the hood and it is so much simpler than a new vehicle.

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Problem is the circuit boards and repairing or replacing those. I'm sure after market controls may arise, but will be expensive. Mechanics will have to be multi person teams with an electronics tech.

With all of these sensors limiting functionality I'm sure eventually people with the know how will begin to send false signals to the ECU and just delete some sensors.

Teslag said:

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I would consider either the Model Y or 3 to be status symbols at all at this point. They certainly aren't priced like status symbols.

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Shows the bubble you live in.

A $50k car that requires a home charger is indicative of status. And is usually a households second vehicle, most EV households still have an ICE vehicle as well.

A non status symbol car is in the 25-35k price range. Like a basic Toyota rav 4 or Mazda CX5 which MSRP starting around 30k

The Model 3 is $38k and the Model Y is $43k

They are symbols of relative wealth and political virtue as they still come at a price premium to ICE equivalents. That is diminishing but it is still a statement brand.

The bigger problem is they are designed as a tightly integrated "disposable" unit that "unfortunately" has to be repaired sometimes. Like a consumer electronics device instead of a piece of capital machinery. Ice vehicles increasingly suffer from this design approach also but nothing like a current electric design.

Teslas are built with a battery design life of 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The average price of a new vehicle is around $40k. The Y and 3 are below that.

Damage. Not wear. Minor accidents are five figure affairs, or totals.

nortex97 said:

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It's a bit fascinating that there are even today a similar number of Pontiacs on the road vs. Tesla's.

Indicative as well of the fact that aging vehicle safety/reliability figures are still to come for BEV's, given Tesla's respective market share in new vehicle sales.

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That is fascinating because I'm not sure I've a single Pontiac in about 5 years. Granted, we lived in urban Dallas for the past almost 25 years where you would see gobs of Teslas and luxury cars. Those Pontiacs must be in rural areas.

What percentage of Tesla accidents are five figure or totals? You can round to the nearest whole percentage if you like.

No idea, what do you count? Paint scuffs? Little dings? No. But if the battery or drive train or body structure is compromised, the electric vehicles tend to require very substantial repairs. It could easily be different as electric vehicles in theory can have superior modularity and should be much easier to repair than they are, because of the current appliance design philosophy. Electric is a good technology. It could be used better than it is.

I do understand they are focusing completely on two things: minimal weight for maximum range and attractive styling, and everything else is subordinate to that, and modular design would sacrifice a bit of each of those most likely. The consumers drive this and the type of consumer buying EV's today doesn't care about maintenance, repair, and insurance costs. I get it. I just think it is unfortunate because modularity would make EV much more attractive to me.

YouBet said:

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nortex97 said:

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It's a bit fascinating that there are even today a similar number of Pontiacs on the road vs. Tesla's.

Indicative as well of the fact that aging vehicle safety/reliability figures are still to come for BEV's, given Tesla's respective market share in new vehicle sales.

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That is fascinating because I'm not sure I've a single Pontiac in about 5 years. Granted, we lived in urban Dallas for the past almost 25 years where you would see gobs of Teslas and luxury cars. Those Pontiacs must be in rural areas.

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They probably aren't in the parts of town you or I frequent.

MouthBQ98 said:

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No idea, what do you count? Paint scuffs? Little dings? No. But if the battery or drive train or body structure is compromised, the electric vehicles tend to require very substantial repairs. It could easily be different as electric vehicles in theory can have superior modularity and should be much easier to repair than they are, because of the current appliance design philosophy. Electric is a good technology. It could be used better than it is.

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It's not my data point. I figured you researched it in depth and knew since you were relying on it.

I have a terrible hankering to sell the 22 Acura MDX and get a Tesla Model S. Is there something wrong with me?

Imagine the potential; upgrades without complete replacement. Third party enhancements. Cheap and fast repair and maintenance.

But, the manufacturers don't want that. They want the constantly making payments financing model for people that buy new every 3-6 years.

No, they're very nice vehicles. I'm not arguing against it.

They just don't make one I designed like I would prefer.

California about to screw itself and the rest of us with electric mandates that start in 2 days.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188?st=trv24gero5wz5gx&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

So much stupidity and penalties to consumers forcing EV instead of letting the market handle it. Thanks Democrats.

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After Jan. 1, 2024, any new big rigs IMC registers in California have to be powered by hydrogen or electricity. Already, planning the logistics for electric trucks has added 10 to 15 hours a week to Mr. Stanley's workload. California has nowhere near enough chargers to service the number of electric semi trucks that will soon be on the road. Mr. Stanley can't risk a truck running out of battery; getting towed only 10 miles costs $600.

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To find out what this means in practice, I rode along with IMC driver Ariel Ramos, 41.

He and IMC's leaders said they're eager to use cleaner trucks, but they're worried that regulators are pushing electric vehicles too quickly. This truck had recently been out of commission for about a month while the manufacturer replaced its battery, which was recalled because of a fire risk.

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The inefficiency of going 100% electric is going to skyrocket costs for goods and services while reducing pay for drivers. Can only make 2 hauls with EV vs 6 with diesel.

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Mr. Ramos left IMC at 5:30 a.m. He drove 9 miles south to a charging station near the Port of Long Beach, where he remained for an hour, charging the battery from 54% to 90%. He then made his first haul, picking up a container and delivering it to a customer.

A second haul started around noonand that was it for the day. In a diesel truck, Mr. Ramos said, he could have made six hauls. But even the second one required another visit to the charging station33 miles out of his way, and another hour and a half of charging. A diesel semi can fuel up in 15 minutes and then drive 1,000 milesa round trip from Los Angeles to Reno, Nev.before needing to refuel. Making the same trip, Mr. Ramos's electric truck would have to make six recharging stops of at least 90 minutes each.

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Fewer deliveries mean $400 less a month for Mr. Ramos.

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Mr. Ramos also faces the challenge of physically fitting his truck next to the charger. Many stations are in shopping-center parking lots, where a semi pulling a trailer can't comfortably fit alongside passenger cars. Mr. Ramos often leaves the truck's trailer somewhere he won't get a parking ticket, bobtails to the charger (driving the truck's head alone), then goes back to get the trailer.

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Electric trucks weigh significantly more than their diesel counterparts, giving them less carrying capacity.

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Accounting for higher labor costs and inefficiencies, IMC had lost $310 by operating the electric semi instead of a diesel truck. To break even rather than take the loss, IMC tacked a surcharge onto the delivery. California consumers will ultimately pay for that.

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He doesn't have data points, just snarks about anything provided by others unless his feelings align with it.

Regardless, Tesla's hegemony in BEV sales may be well deserved or not, but their behavior toward customers has been problematic, as has their attitude/positions regarding right to repair/standardizing codes etc:

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Lost a bit in the holiday rush here at TTAC was a new Reuters story about Tesla blaming the buyers of its cars for parts failures.

It's a long, thoroughly investigated piece and I am still working through it. We didn't cover it due to our small staff and the holiday blur -- we almost certainly have hit it any other week. But from what I've seen so far, Tesla has a lot of explaining to do.

I could write a screed like this just about every week -- it seems like we're constantly hearing about Tesla or one of Elon Musk's other companies cutting corners when it comes to safety, presumably in order to keep the stock price juiced. Indeed, the Reuters piece references safety problems at SpaceX.
In this case, Tesla is accused of blaming customers for abusing vehicles even though the company knew its parts had flaws.

In other words, the company is being accused with knowing that its parts were either poorly designed or defective, and instead of taking responsibility, it blamed customers and claimed the customers did the damage via "abuse."

We at TTAC, myself especially, have been accused as Tesla and/or Musk haters. I can assure you I have no anti-Tesla or anti-Musk bias. That said, this kind of stuff makes my blood boil. I do have a bias against companies that ignore safety concerns and then try to blame their customers -- putting the customers both at a safety risk and on the hook financially for expensive repairs that should be covered under warranty. I would say the same about Ford or GM or Toyota or Honda or Kia -- had I been working here during the GM ignition switch recall, ho boy.

OK, preventative defense against accusations of bias aside, back to Tesla. Internal documents seem to show that the company knew about defects and kept both consumers and safety regulators in the dark.
It's also worth noting here that Tesla, unlike other automakers, doesn't use an independent dealer network to sell or service its cars. That matters because, in theory, Tesla would know about defects and warranty claims more quickly than other automakers. Having worked in the dealer world, admittedly over 15 years ago, I can say this is probably true. Legacy automakers do have representatives that check in with dealers and monitor claims to spot trends, to be clear, and these folks would likely notice company-wide problems pretty quickly, but it would presumably happen even faster if the service centers were owned and managed by the automaker.

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Posting the prices of vehicles to counter the claim they are "status symbols" is quite literally a data point. But carry on.

Without a doubt this is lunacy on the part of CA that will bite them the most but the rest of us will feel it although I bet a lot of interstate trucking will only be done with out of state registered trucks so hopefully it doesn't impact us much.

And if someone says that minor accidents result in totals or five figure repairs I at the very least expect data showing a rate of occurrence.

EV mobility adventures in Germany. Legend has it if you recharge at a Porsche dealership, your Kia gets quicker too. pic.twitter.com/IbK0ZPAV0z

— Alex Luck (@AlexLuck9) December 31, 2023

NEWS: The IRS has released the full list of vehicles that are eligible for the Fed EV tax rebate in 2024. The number of eligible EVs in 2024 has dropped 50% vs 2023. Only 7 models currently qualify.

Full list:
• Rivian R1S & R1T: $3,750
• Chevy Bolt EV & EUV: $7,500
• Ford… pic.twitter.com/Pm0Hke2o0f

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) January 1, 2024

Looks like the model Y will continue to be America's favorite car again in 2024

Assuming I counted correctly, that is 13 more vehicles than it should be.

https://ace.mu.nu/archives/407691.php

Sotero-Judges said:

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https://ace.mu.nu/archives/407691.php

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If this is a major concern for you, you actually should buy an EV like a long range model 3. 50% of Tesla's produced today already don't use cobalt. Some of the European EVs as well. As for US integrated refineries, essentially all of them use cobalt as a catalyst so all gasoline, diesel and av gas in the US relies of child labor to be produced.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-batteries-in-half-new-cars-produced/

BYD now sells more than Tesla. It was only a matter of time.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/02/cars/china-byd-ev-sales-increase-tesla-intl-hnk/index.html

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BYD overtook Tesla to become the world's biggest electric car company in the final quarter of 2023.

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or the first 11 months of last year, China's car industry recorded a profit margin of just 5%, lower than 2022's 5.7% and 2021's 6.1%, according to figures published by the Chinese Passenger Car Association, a government-backed industry group.

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Model Y RWD still gets the tax credit but the Model 3 RWD fell off? Guessing the Model 3 refresh is coming soon and they used a "tax credit going away" approach to push as much remaining inventory out the door before 12/31.

Porsche back on their rightful Nurburgring top spot for EVs:

Model 3 RWD and Long Range use LFP batteries. The RWD Model Y uses 2170 batteries from the Tesla/Panasonic's Nevada factory. LFP batteries are from CATL, so they're not eligible.

My guess is they're going to dump the long range Model 3 again, reduce the RWD version price a thousand or two, and add a plaid version overtop of the performance model with a 3rd motor.

So you'll have $37,000 RWD with 300 miles range (after refresh) with no credit. $49,000 Performance with 315 miles range ($41,500 post credit) and a Plaid at 54,990 ($47,490 post credit).

I figured the Model Y RWD was LFP since it had similar range and reduced max charging (170 kW) like the Model 3 RWD pack. Seems like articles when it was reintroduced thought the same thing. Oh well, guess I learned something new

That's my most recent understanding, I may be wrong. The rumor for awhile was that it was the exact same pack as the Long Range, but software limited to 260 miles, but I think that turned out to not be accurate.

It's possible they shift from LFP batteries to NMC batteries for the Long Range, keep the Performance price the same and do a Plaid outside the credit range of the credit. Plaid is definitely rumored to be coming with the refresh.

Another day, another 1.6 million Teslas recalled, in China for an autopilot software update.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/01/05/tesla-recalls-over-1point6-million-cars-in-china-over-autopilot-locks.html