Quote:

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The Chinese were also going to build some plants in partnerships here for Biden bucks/subsidies but some of those got shelved due to…wait for it, lack of demand.

---

So the Chinese are reducing production due to lack of demand as US production ramps up...


Carry on providing data points against yourself.

nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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hph6203 said:

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I'm treating you like a witness on a witness stand, because you're claiming that it is an important metric to consider in the transition to this new mode of transportation, and I'm just asking you to define how important it is since you claim it's so important and are in you're the self proclaimed resident battery expert. I don't particularly care how much it is, because based upon what I know about the amount of money directed to the refinement of materials they are not getting anywhere near rich off of completing those tasks. Certainly not compared to the total efficiency gains from the shift to electric.


And as the resident battery expert I'm sure you're aware that the price that a repair shop charges to the customer for parts is not the same as the price they pay to the supplier, and the price that a repair shop pays for the parts is not the same as the price that the manufacturer pays through the systematized supply chain for the manufacture of the vehicle. So quoting prices that appear on invoices for battery repair isn't exactly representative of the price the manufacturer actually pays when manufacturing the vehicle. But you know that, because you're the battery expert. Right?


So help me out battery expert, what is the collective enrichment of the refiners in China for the raw materials in batteries if the battery pack is manufactured in the U.S.? You like to ask questions, but when they're directed to you it turns into a pivot to the same talking points that bear little relevance to the question being asked.

---

You mean our resident battery expert that thinks there are rare earth elements in batteries?

---

I really feel like I am deserving of a stipend for helping to educate so many EV fans here; many EV's will still be needing these in 2025+, yes, and all of them will need escalating, not decreasing copper supply too which…is a problem.

Quote:

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Rare Earth Elements

• Top producer: China
• Uses: Permanent magnets for EV motors, wind turbines, electronics

Rare earth elements (REEs) such as dysprosium, terbium, and neodymium are essential for making permanent magnets for EV motors, wind turbines, national defense, electronics, and more.

China is the largest producer of REEs, accounting for 70% of production and 90% of processing in 2022 and into 2023. The U.S., Australia, and Canada funded domestic REE mining and processing plants in 2022 to reduce dependence on China

---

Quote:

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Cobalt

• Top producers: Democratic Republic of the Congo, Indonesia, China
• Uses: EVs, tablets, smartphones, tools, nickel-based alloys

Cobalt is another important metal primarily used to make batteries for EVs, smartphones, and tablets.12 Demand for cobalt jumped 70% from 2017 to 2022, and continues to rise as clean energy applications for cobalt rose to 40% over the same period. Demand for cobalt is expected to increase in the future due to its importance in making EVs and for energy storage.1

The Democratic Republic of the Congo is the leading producer of cobalt, and made up more than 70% of the world's cobalt production in 2022. Indonesia is another top producer of cobalt, and tripled its cobalt production in 2022. China also made up more than 75% of the world's refined cobalt output in the same year.13

Copper

• Top producers: Chile, Peru, China
• Uses: Electricity, wind turbines, solar power, energy storage, EVs

Copper is essential for any technology related to electricity, and is a key element in the transition to clean energy. Copper is used widely for energy storage, generates power from solar and wind sources to deliver clean energy, and is used heavily in EV production. The motor coils that drive the engine in electric cars, the battery, and the cables for charging stations all rely on copper.14

After several years of remaining relatively flat, copper production picked up in 2022. However, due to challenges such as water shortages, declining ore grade, and protests from local communities in major copper-producing countries Chile and Peru, growth may decline after 2024. The top producers of copper are Chile, Peru, and China.

---

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That's a lot of stuff that needs to be taken into account, for sure.

Still, I have no doubt that Elon and others already know this and are putting their big brains into making sure they'll be able to make sure there's an EV for everyone who wants one in spite of those challenges.

Teslag said:

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Has Nortex given up his smartphone, power tools, laptop, anything else with lithium powered?



Or is supporting the CCP acceptable when done in smaller quantities?

---

If the Anti-CCP people actually walked their talk in regards to being anti-China, they'd be living a very different life than they currently are. And until then, they're part of the problem they see in anyone else doing business with China. In for a penny and all that.

To those who make sure every part/ingredient of every purchase has nothing from China in it, more power to them.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if most are highly selective in the things they ban from China coming into their lives and homes. iPhone good. "Green" EV bad, but not bad because liberal, but because battery or anything imaginable, but not because liberal.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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The Chinese were also going to build some plants in partnerships here for Biden bucks/subsidies but some of those got shelved due to…wait for it, lack of demand.

---

So the Chinese are reducing production due to lack of demand as US production ramps up...


Carry on providing data points against yourself.

---

Your reading of links and summation of something I said is again poor/dishonest. But, I will in this case also admit I forgot they brought it back somewhat in scaled down form. Though Biden has depressed demand via his Ukraine war on our economy, in fact a scaled down version of the plant is planned still now. The controversy also involved of course that so much was going to go to Ford's CCP partner, CATL. Ah well.

Quote:

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DETROIT, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Ford Motor (F.N) will scale back the investment, capacity and the number of jobs planned for an electric-vehicle (EV) battery plant in Michigan that has drawn fire from U.S. lawmakers for its use of technology supplied by Chinese battery maker CATL (300750.SZ), the automaker said on Tuesday.

Ford said it would restart construction of the factory near Marshall, Michigan, after being paused two months ago.

The No. 2 U.S. automaker plans to start producing low-cost lithium-iron batteries by 2026 based on technology licensed from CATL. Ford will own the factory, and has agreed to give the United Auto Workers the opportunity to organize the plant's workers without a vote.

The company's ties with CATL have drawn fire from U.S. lawmakers, who oppose the country's EV subsidies flowing to a Chinese entity.

Representative Mike Gallagher, a Republican who chairs House committee on China, said on Tuesday Ford's reported decision was disappointing.

"The American people deserve better from an iconic U.S. company that receives massive taxpayer subsidies. Ford needs to call off this unethical deal for good," Gallagher said.

Ford is pushing for the U.S. Treasury Department to approve lithium-iron, or LFP, batteries made at the Michigan factory to qualify for Inflation Reduction Act EV subsidies. Ford is already using imported LFP batteries in its Mustang Mach-E electric SUV.

---

And yes, size matters, in terms of what is bought/depended on from China, among other things.

Tesla's next generation drivetrain removes all rare earths from it's construction. This was announced at their investor day in March, with initial integration likely starting with their next generation vehicle, but we'll see if it makes it to the Cybertruck/3/Y first.

This market moves fast.

Timestamps in the description. You're looking for "Powertrain with Colin Campbell" the announcement that they are removing rare earths from the motors is right at the 1 hour mark.

hph6203 said:

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Tesla's next generation drivetrain removes all rare earths from it's construction. This was announced at their investor day in March, with initial integration likely starting with their next generation vehicle, but we'll see if it makes it to the Cybertruck/3/Y first.

This market moves fast.

Timestamps in the description. You're looking for "Powertrain with Colin Campbell" the announcement that they are removing rare earths from the motors is right at the 1 hour mark.

---

By 75% via the motor, if it works as advertised (permanent magnet using a mystery substance), yes. But others haven't.

In any case, any BEV fan wants to see a growth of competitors, and a huge 'investment' in charging infrastructure/power generation too which will all drive more rare earth demand.

I drag on some due to the snark/obsession from certain quarters, but I do think Tesla's ability to innovate and put stuff into mass production is incredible. Cutting rare earth element demand from their family of BEV's is great, but a smaller net shift than some believe imho.

I will admit to not having time to watch that or dive into non-rare earth minerals...but is the idea simply whatever is used to build these magnet motors is easily found throughout the US or at least non-China countries? Does it require mining or less mining interruption? Or no mining at all? I assume then too are we talking less carbon footprint for end-of-life battery?

Teslag said:

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Has Nortex given up his smartphone, power tools, laptop, anything else with lithium powered?



Or is supporting the CCP acceptable when done in smaller quantities?

---

Honestly, I think he's just trolling.

Would it be reasonable to even just have people admit we all know China is involved with a large chunk of our lives currently (what we wear, use, etc)....but maybe it is wise to consider avoiding getting further in bed with them when possible...especially when it comes to energy / fuels....i think the concern may just be "how quick can we get out from under them" to which there is no real clear answer just yet....

Teslag said:

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Has Nortex given up his smartphone, power tools, laptop, anything else with lithium powered?



Or is supporting the CCP acceptable when done in smaller quantities?

---

We all know the answer to that. Just like oil production is totally clean with no environmental issues. I appreciate him wanting to limit choice in the marketplace like a good Marxist. Heck, he will so far as to inform his neighbors their EVs aren't welcome.

You should watch the video. You have the primary source for the blog you're quoting, which is using a secondary source written 8 months ago that misquoted the information provided by the former head of powertrain to generate their own article. It's right in front of you and you decide to search for someone's interpretation of an interpretation of the information rather than the primary source of the information.

Total removal of rare earths from the motor. That's what he says, and the video is right there for you to watch. The 75% reduction is for silicon carbide, which is achieved from designing their own chips for their power management system instead of using off the shelf components. The motor removes all rare earth materials. Both pieces of information are in that video, at the timestamp.


I'm also failing to understand how the utilization of rare earths is concerning, but the market leader that represents 60% of domestic EV sales removing them is not a consequential thing? Is it a problem or isn't it?

planoaggie123 said:

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I will admit to not having time to watch that or dive into non-rare earth minerals...but is the idea simply whatever is used to build these magnet motors is easily found throughout the US or at least non-China countries? Does it require mining or less mining interruption? Or no mining at all? I assume then too are we talking less carbon footprint for end-of-life battery?

---

the idea is to domestically produce as much of the materials needed as possible.....

even more importantly is the amount of materials Tesla is able to recycle from old battery packs.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1402212/tesla-raw-materials-recovered-for-recycling/

planoaggie123 said:

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I will admit to not having time to watch that or dive into non-rare earth minerals...but is the idea simply whatever is used to build these magnet motors is easily found throughout the US or at least non-China countries? Does it require mining or less mining interruption? Or no mining at all? I assume then too are we talking less carbon footprint for end-of-life battery?

---

Most lithium is mined in Austrailia. Much of it is refined in china but that is changing as more US production comes online. Tesla plans to refine enough lithium in Texas to produce 1 million cars a year.


The only people still clinging to the CCP narrative are those with an axe to grind while excusing their own dependence on middle eastern countries and china itself.

hph6203 said:

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You should watch the video. You have the primary source for the blog you're quoting, which is using a secondary source written 8 months ago that misquoted the information provided by the former head of powertrain to generate their own article. It's right in front of you and you decide to search for someone's interpretation of an interpretation of the information rather than the primary source of the information.

Total removal of rare earths from the motor. That's what he says, and the video is right there for you to watch. The 75% reduction is for silicon carbide, which is achieved from designing their own chips for their power management system instead of using off the shelf components. The motor removes all rare earth materials. Both pieces of information are in that video, at the timestamp.


I'm also failing to understand how the utilization of rare earths is concerning, but the market leader that represents 60% of domestic EV sales removing them is not a consequential thing? Is it a problem or isn't it?

---

Yes, and I have followed a few Tesla/Musk-related quarterly/annual presentations where the promises/timelines were...not quite the reality.

And as I stated, removal from the magnets in the motor is fine, but there are other rare earth requirements for this notional/planned expansion of BEV adoption, to include not just Tesla motors but the infrastructure and other manufacturers.

In short, trying to make this simple, even if Tesla does achieve an elimination of rare earth metals from their motors, if adoption is even close to 50% of what is forecast for BEV's we will be more dependant than ever before on China for those refined rare earth metals etc.

Anyway, the EV reckoning may even be driven by the Tesla price war. Could be interesting.

Quote:

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Electric car prices have taken a nosedive this year, led by Tesla's price cuts and deepened further by economic changes that have made shoppers more frugal. A change in the average EV shopper and buyer is also rocking the market, as the well of wealthy early adopters dries up and dealers are left to try to pitch EVs over hybrids and gas-powered vehicles. At the same time, a proliferation of new EVs has given shoppers more choices than ever before.

All of this has culminated in what can feel like contradicting outcomes: the electric vehicle market is going to notch another record year of growth, and at the same time, demand for these cars is showing early signs of slowing down.

The EV price war

At the start of the year, in response to bloated inventory and slowing sales, Tesla CEO Elon Musk slashed prices on his most popular models. This kicked off a price war in the segment that dragged down the value of new EVs from Ford and GM.

Overall, the price war has brought down the average price paid for an EV by more than 17% this year. But even with this drop, the average price paid for an electric car still hovered above $50,000 this fall, well out of reach for many car shoppers.

---

More as usual at the link, for those who like to cry that I didn't paste an entire article. To me it's interesting that with this huge slush fund to invest in "American made" batteries etc. for subsidies (Inflation reduction act graft to Democrats), the new Dem-UAW communist labor agreements with the "American" manufacturers, and then Tesla's CCP-driven price cuts (they get a better deal from China thanks to making 53 percent of their cars there), the net result is a pending disaster in the segment to other manufacturers. Weird, the politics involved, since people just can't wait for all this great technology.

Quote:

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The age of electric vehicles is coming, but it is not coming nearly as fast as expected a couple of years ago. I spoke last week with two CEOs who are in the middle of the transition: Chrissy Taylor, CEO of Enterprise Mobility in St. Louis, and Masahiro Moro, CEO of Mazda in Hiroshima, Japan. Both cited lack of charging stations as a major reason. Taylor, who drives an electric car, said this:

"Quite honestly, the demand has always been low. It's just slow. It's not where it needs to be. The demand is low because the infrastructure is low."

Moro echoed Taylor's comments.

"EV is absolutely important technology, and we are developing it. But [in the U.S.] EVs last year [were] about 6% of the market. This year it is 8%. And out of that 8%, 57% was Tesla. Other EVs are not taking off, inventory is piling up."

Egged on by the success of Tesla and facing pressure to act on climate change, big auto makers like GM and Ford set ambitious targets for their electric vehicles. Two years ago, General Motors CEO Mary Barra said GM would only produce emissions-free vehicles by 2035. But smaller players, like Mazda and Enterprise, are taking their cues from the market. And the market isn't on track for hitting zero in 2035. Said Taylor:

"For us, it is an evolution, and the customer has to drive it. We have not put a goal on it. We will move as fast as the customer. We never want to surprise them with new technology."

---

I'll continue to question the narrative, like most Americans.

Questioning a narrative is absolutely warranted. But you are trying to write your own narrative with confirmation bias and cherry picked cut and pasted to support it. Pretty sad actually.

RoyVal said:

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Questioning a narrative is absolutely warranted. But you are trying to write your own narrative with confirmation bias and cherry picked cut and pasted to support it. Pretty sad actually.

---

Not sure what I said is sad to you.

You did cherry pick some hopeful piece just above about Tesla recycling material. Maybe that will happen some day. No one has shown it as economic at scale, for wet electrode batteries, least of all a current auto producer focused on low cost of goods. Your belief/faith/trust in our federal slush fund of hundreds of billions to make this product make sense competitively in the market is very much an example of confirmation bias, imho.

I continue to stick by my earlier predictions that EVs peak at 25% participation and settles out around 20% regardless of advances in batteries. By the time batteries reach full potential I anticipate alternative fuel sources and / or transportation methods will keep EVs from rising higher than that peak of 25%.

These recent signs all point to this being a fairly likely outcome.

I am not sure if 25% or 15 or 30 is right but somewhere in there is most likely. There will be a peak when subsidies are pulled back and folks frustrated with various 'not quite what I thought' growth in charging ease etc.

Plus, oil prices are likely to drop at some point too, once Bidenflation recedes in the mirror, I'd like to hope.

I have to pick a number or people will just say I am moving goal posts, strawmanning, or whatever nonsense they come up with these days when you say things certain people don't like hearing.

'Electric vehicles less reliable than gas-powered cars, trucks: Consumer Reports'
https://nypost.com/2023/11/29/business/electric-vehicles-less-reliable-than-gas-powered-cars-trucks-consumer-reports/

Quote:

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Electric vehicles have proved far less reliable, on average, than gasoline-powered cars, trucks, and SUVs, according to the latest survey by Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from 2021 through 2023 model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than vehicles propelled by internal combustion engines.

Consumer Reports said EV owners most frequently reported troubles with battery and charging systems as well as flaws in how the vehicles' body panels and interior parts fit together.

The magazine and website noted that EV manufacturers are still learning to construct completely new power systems, and it suggested that as they do, the overall reliability of electric vehicles should improve.

---

Interesting if true...

I don't keep up with this thread that much, so SIAP

Funny thing is from a few years ago I have presentations from motor suppliers using rare earth minerals as a selling point

fka ftc said:

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I continue to stick by my earlier predictions that EVs peak at 25% participation and settles out around 20% regardless of advances in batteries. By the time batteries reach full potential I anticipate alternative fuel sources and / or transportation methods will keep EVs from rising higher than that peak of 25%.

These recent signs all point to this being a fairly likely outcome.

---

Seeing as how a decade or so ago anything over 0% would've been seen as a miracle, that's not a bad percentage even if it is the final amount of EVs on the road.

Would that make gas prices be 20% less as well?

nortex97 said:

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I am not sure if 25% or 15 or 30 is right but somewhere in there is most likely. There will be a peak when subsidies are pulled back and folks frustrated with various 'not quite what I thought' growth in charging ease etc.

Plus, oil prices are likely to drop at some point too, once Bidenflation recedes in the mirror, I'd like to hope.

---

Who doesn't love cheap gas prices, be it from "drill baby drill" or "mine baby mine."

No Spin Ag said:

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fka ftc said:

---

I continue to stick by my earlier predictions that EVs peak at 25% participation and settles out around 20% regardless of advances in batteries. By the time batteries reach full potential I anticipate alternative fuel sources and / or transportation methods will keep EVs from rising higher than that peak of 25%.

These recent signs all point to this being a fairly likely outcome.

---

Seeing as how a decade or so ago anything over 0% would've been seen as a miracle, that's not a bad percentage even if it is the final amount of EVs on the road.

Would that make gas prices be 20% less as well?

---

I doubt it would have a big impact because the cost of capital for drilling and refining has gotten a lot higher due to banks and equity providers pulling back on oil and gas due to dumb ESG views. In essence you need higher oil prices to keep the investments flowing to offset depletion. If oil goes below
$50-60, drilling will drop a lot. The wild card is Russia and Saudi and what they do.

Kansas Kid said:

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No Spin Ag said:

---

fka ftc said:

---

I continue to stick by my earlier predictions that EVs peak at 25% participation and settles out around 20% regardless of advances in batteries. By the time batteries reach full potential I anticipate alternative fuel sources and / or transportation methods will keep EVs from rising higher than that peak of 25%.

These recent signs all point to this being a fairly likely outcome.

---

Seeing as how a decade or so ago anything over 0% would've been seen as a miracle, that's not a bad percentage even if it is the final amount of EVs on the road.

Would that make gas prices be 20% less as well?

---

I doubt it would have a big impact because the cost of capital for drilling and refining has gotten a lot higher due to banks and equity providers pulling back on oil and gas due to dumb ESG views. In essence you need higher oil prices to keep the investments flowing to offset depletion. If oil goes below
$50-60, drilling will drop a lot. The wild card is Russia and Saudi and what they do.

---

That's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Now to see what happens with those two nations.

StandUpforAmerica said:

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'Electric vehicles less reliable than gas-powered cars, trucks: Consumer Reports'
https://nypost.com/2023/11/29/business/electric-vehicles-less-reliable-than-gas-powered-cars-trucks-consumer-reports/

Quote:

---

Electric vehicles have proved far less reliable, on average, than gasoline-powered cars, trucks, and SUVs, according to the latest survey by Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from 2021 through 2023 model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than vehicles propelled by internal combustion engines.

Consumer Reports said EV owners most frequently reported troubles with battery and charging systems as well as flaws in how the vehicles' body panels and interior parts fit together.

The magazine and website noted that EV manufacturers are still learning to construct completely new power systems, and it suggested that as they do, the overall reliability of electric vehicles should improve.

---

Interesting if true...

I don't keep up with this thread that much, so SIAP

---

How can this be? We've been told repeatedly on this thread that EVs have lots less maintenance needs than ICE vehicles.

Automotive gasoline and diesel is only a portion of oil consumption. Petro chemicals, plastics, shipping fuel, and aviation fuel are all taking massive chunks of that pie, not to mention exports. The eco commie pipe dream of eliminating fossil fuels is insanely idiotic and completely ignorant of economic and industrial realities. Minor improvements in fuel economy and emissions for civilian transportation have very little environmental and oil demand impacts in the grand scheme of things.

Gasoline and diesel make up the overwhelming majority

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_pct_dc_nus_pct_m.htm

Stuff like semis and ships and planes aren't switching to electric any time soon. Gasoline is almost half our refining production.

techno-ag said:

---

StandUpforAmerica said:

---

'Electric vehicles less reliable than gas-powered cars, trucks: Consumer Reports'
https://nypost.com/2023/11/29/business/electric-vehicles-less-reliable-than-gas-powered-cars-trucks-consumer-reports/

Quote:

---

Electric vehicles have proved far less reliable, on average, than gasoline-powered cars, trucks, and SUVs, according to the latest survey by Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from 2021 through 2023 model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than vehicles propelled by internal combustion engines.

Consumer Reports said EV owners most frequently reported troubles with battery and charging systems as well as flaws in how the vehicles' body panels and interior parts fit together.

The magazine and website noted that EV manufacturers are still learning to construct completely new power systems, and it suggested that as they do, the overall reliability of electric vehicles should improve.

---

Interesting if true...

I don't keep up with this thread that much, so SIAP

---

How can this be? We've been told repeatedly on this thread that EVs have lots less maintenance needs than ICE vehicles.

---

What does ill fitting body panels have to do with maintenance?

My guess is it's actually primarily engineering issues and battery issues with the Chevy Bolt. It was a survey of subscribers to Consumer Reports, not a broad survey, which means older than dirt and brand loyal. Tesla surely factors in, but timeframe was 2021-2023 model years and GM issued their Bolt recall in 2021.

But yeah, early Model Y and Model 3's had panel gap consistency issues that would, for the most part, go unnoticed and unconsidered for the vast majority of people if not for the internet.

Agree with all that.

His comment just seemed odd. Like what would misaligned body panels have to do with scheduled maintenance intervals.

Car dealers beg Biden; abandon "green" scheme.

Quote:

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Car dealers across the United States are warning President Joe Biden that his "unrealistic" green energy agenda must be abandoned, mainly because Americans are not buying Electric Vehicles (EVs) as the administration expected.

Executives with car dealerships from Massachusetts to Alabama to Wyoming sent a letterto Biden this week, urging his administration to drop EV mandates and green energy requirements on the auto industry, citing a lack of interest among American consumers in EVs.

"… we are asking you to slow down your proposed regulations mandating battery electric vehicle (BEV) production and distribution," the car dealers tell Biden:

Quote:

---

Your administration has proposed regulations that would essentially mandate a dramatic shift to battery electric vehicles (BEVs), increasing year after year until 2032, when two out of every three vehicles sold in America would have to be battery electric. [Emphasis added]
…
The reality, however, is that electric vehicle demand today is not keeping up with the large influx of BEVs arriving at our dealerships prompted by the current regulations. BEVs are stacking up on our lots. [Emphasis added]

---

According to the car dealers, "enthusiasm has stalled" with EVs and the number of unsold EVs sitting on dealership lots are piling up "even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives."

"With each passing day, it becomes more apparent that this attempted electric vehicle mandate is unrealistic based on current and forecasted customer demand," the car dealers write to Biden. "Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace."

---

Commie car resistance is building, great to see!

This thing is going to be expensive to start.

Cybertruck Delivery Event https://t.co/rWd111HvHc

— Tesla (@Tesla) November 29, 2023

Didn't they say it is going to start at $50K?

Beats a Porsche 911 while towing a 911
pic.twitter.com/4YdS1tKQse

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 30, 2023

I am not by any means changing my positions but this…is impressive, purely from a performance standpoint.

4 years ago before all the inflation in the market. Think they also realized that steel is going to be harder to work with, and they've had more trouble with ramping up the 4680 cells that they're going to use in it. Can't remember, but I think the rear-wheel steering was added after the initial announcement as well. They seem to have finally figured the 4680 out to some extent and are now just scaling the production, currently at an annual production rate of about 12,000 vehicles worth and growing at about 50% every couple of months.

Basically, they're throwing a ton of new things at this as a proof of possibilities and they're all converging to increase the prices in the near term. 48v low voltage system that isn't used in any of their other cars (yet), 800v for their high voltage system that isn't used in any of their other cars (yet), bent steel, rear-wheel steering, adaptive air suspension (used in S/X, but this is way more adjustment), and new batteries that are in too low volume to yet realize the cost savings they expected.

My prediction is that these prices won't stay this high forever and you might see 5-10k price reductions across the lineup as the production for those systems increases and gets spread across their current vehicles/their next-generation vehicle. Their goal is to create vehicles with as much overlap in parts as possible.

They've kind of vacillated between practical and impractical cars as Elon seems to get bored with the every person vehicles. The X and the Cybertruck are their "let's do something weird" and the rest are the vehicles targeted at a normal market. Cybertruck is intended to be weird.

BREAKING: Tesla has revealed final Cybertruck pricing, trims and range!

Starting prices (excluding Fed EV credit):
• RWD: $60,990 (250 mile range)
• AWD: $79,990 (340 mile range)
• Cyberbeast: $99,990 (320 mile range) pic.twitter.com/Vom4utKszX

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) November 30, 2023

UPDATE: Cybertruck has a range extender that gives the truck over 470 miles of range. https://t.co/SJx8rWHelf pic.twitter.com/UGLTfuCM2y

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) November 30, 2023

That range extender is the kind of stuff I'd expect for future towing products where you could potentially get a trailer with motors built in and sodium ion batteries to improve the efficiency. That's a long way away.