hph6203 said:

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That turned out…. Poorly for you.

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Him posting overtly false info is kind of a theme here and on the Ukraine threads. Community notes have not been kind to people that love false info.

It's the hallmark of someone who has formed a narrative and then simply searches the internet for anything to support that narrative. And then presents the information as some objective arbiter of truth.

Teslag said:

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It's the hallmark of someone who has formed a narrative and then simply searches the internet for anything to support that narrative. And then presents the information as some objective arbiter of truth.

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Hey, if it is on the internet, it must be true. When will you ever learn?

Cybertruck spotted hauling some cargo

TexAgs91 said:

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Cybertruck spotted hauling some cargo

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With that heavy duty SpaceX option package, I would say 0-60 in 0.3 seconds.

TexAgs91 said:

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Cybertruck spotted hauling some cargo

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Saving the planet with carbon reduction.

Jalopnik (EV-fan site): there aren't enough electricians to fix America's broken EV chargers.

Quote:

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I know we say it a lot but it's the truth: EV adoption still sucks. Sure, some new chargers are being built, but there are never enough. Now comes word of another hurdle we have to clear before EVs catch on: Broken chargers that very few people are qualified to repair, Automotive News reports.

Using data from the Department of Energy, Auto News pointed out that as of October 3, there were nearly 4,000 EV chargers that have over 7,000 charging ports out of commission. That works out to an over six-percent outage rate. And even that might be conservative:

Quote:

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The DOE estimate may be modest. Here Technologies, which pulls real-time data from connected chargers, says 4,673 chargers were out of order, but it expects many more "unconnected" charge points were inoperable.

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LOL.

nortex97 said:

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Jalopnik (EV-fan site): there aren't enough electricians to fix America's broken EV chargers.

Quote:

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I know we say it a lot but it's the truth: EV adoption still sucks. Sure, some new chargers are being built, but there are never enough. Now comes word of another hurdle we have to clear before EVs catch on: Broken chargers that very few people are qualified to repair, Automotive News reports.

Using data from the Department of Energy, Auto News pointed out that as of October 3, there were nearly 4,000 EV chargers that have over 7,000 charging ports out of commission. That works out to an over six-percent outage rate. And even that might be conservative:

Quote:

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The DOE estimate may be modest. Here Technologies, which pulls real-time data from connected chargers, says 4,673 chargers were out of order, but it expects many more "unconnected" charge points were inoperable.

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LOL.

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Maybe about a million of our newest residents can train to be electricians. Somebody gotta do the work.

oh no said:

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I'm sure having a frunk to store your groceries and beating other drivers off the line more than make up for the fiery death risk, and the shorter life/poor resale/expensive battery replacement, and the long lines to charge, long times to charge, and driving around with range anxiety. That's all before you even consider the green zero emissions climate saving virtue signaling you get to do if you ignore the child labor and china dependency mining lithium and cobalt and charging on a grid fueled by coal and natural gas fired power plants.

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Well said. I think I've got the electric bus problem solved. Buy twice the number of EV buses (at twice the cost of trad buses). They'll only run for four hours then charge 10-12, so run them in shifts.

Voila. Twice the taxpayer money, with three times more problems. YW.

Takes some serious faith to buy a narrative that there aren't enough electricians in this country to repair 4000 charging stations. That is just an immense avoidance of critical thinking.

There are 1.1 million licensed electricians in this country and they're so damn busy that they can't replace a charging cable on a revenue producing charging port, because they're too busy installing a GFCI in a person's house.

OR alternatively the largest non-Tesla charging network in the country was actually mandated as part of a settlement between the U.S. government and Volkswagen for fraudulently defeating emissions tests, and they didn't view the charging network as a viable business and did very little maintenance and monitoring to ensure it was reliable as it didn't serve their parent company's vehicles until recently. Could be that instead of the overwhelming amount of work involved with replacing a charging cable that is likely minimally more complicated than installing a power cable on an oven.



Even if it were true, which it almost certainly isn't, that's a market opportunity for people to stop delivering McDonald's for a living.

So jalopnik is in on the anti bev conspiracy. Thx.

Wouldn't be the first nonsense article from them.

nortex97 said:

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So jalopnik is in on the anti bev conspiracy. Thx.

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Or maybe you could use some common sense. Like he said, there are over 1mm electricians in the US and your article says there are 4000 chargers out of order. Even if it took 1 full time electrician for each one, that would 0.3% of the total electricians in this country. Needless to say, it wouldn't take anywhere near that. Maybe use your brain instead of just posting stuff you randomly find on the internet.

There is a shortage of all skilled tradesmen. Ask any contractor or engineer in construction.

"Thats not true! I use simple logic" is completely on brand from EV fans though.

Quote:

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Maybe use your brain instead of just posting stuff you randomly find on the internet.

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Are you new here?

There's a big difference between a shortage of tradesmen and a billion dollar operation being unable to find tradesmen to repair revenue producing infrastructure. The replacement of a charging cable on a Tesla Supercharger is removing the shell (~8 screws), removing 4 more screws to remove the LED housing behind the Tesla logo, and then removing 4 more screws to remove the cable and then replacing it with a new cable and reversing the process. That's the most common failure point and beyond that it's generally a failing of the upstream engineering (bad software, poorly chosen components). It's why Tesla's uptime is near 100% and their competitors who have half assed efforts are much worse off.

There's a big difference between "these already installed chargers don't have enough electricians to service them" and the need for more electricians to install them in the first place. Not enough electricians to install the planned charging stations, I can believe that because it likely requires a higher certification. Not enough electricians to do a job that a non-licensed technician should be able to do? Right.

It's why Tesla's current method for installing super chargers is to pre-fabricate them in their factory into a concrete block, drop the block into the parking lot and back fill with concrete and do a single interconnect on site limiting the number of hours needed for a more skilled tradesman.

As a point of reference, each charging port on Tesla's network did, on average, 5 charges per day in 2022. Over 7,000 charging ports would be 35,000 charging sessions per day, for $.30 per kWh (low end on the non-Tesla network) at 50 kWh (low end of per charge amount) that's half a million in lost revenue per day.

And you, Nortex, and Jalopnik are saying that they can't find an electrician to change a cable. And I could get an electrician to my house to crawl around my attic to install a 240v in my garage by the end of the week. That's nonsense.

Read that insurance is skyrocketing on electric cars, Govt will probably subsidize the green car hazard insurance. Brrrrrrrrr more printing.

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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So jalopnik is in on the anti bev conspiracy. Thx.

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Or maybe you could use some common sense. Like he said, there are over 1mm electricians in the US and your article says there are 4000 chargers out of order. Even if it took 1 full time electrician for each one, that would 0.3% of the total electricians in this country. Needless to say, it wouldn't take anywhere near that. Maybe use your brain instead of just posting stuff you randomly find on the internet.

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Not every electrician can work on these chargers, clearly. Some of it is no doubt that operators just don't keep up with maintenance, which is as surprising as finding out a gas station has a filthy bathroom, really, basically just common sense:

Quote:

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So while you may drive your EV and charge it just fine at home, public charging is and has been a whole other issue, as detailed in a latest report by J.D. Power, via USA Today.

The report is part of a larger one done on EV leasing rates and vehicle availability showing that 20.8 percent of EV owners said they had problems with public charging in the first quarter of 2023. Many said the chargers just didn't work, which if you're edging really close to zero percent power on your battery, and this is the one charger you can get to, it certainly creates a big problem.

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Quote:

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Companies like Electrify America says that they plan to replace 600 aging EV chargers by the end of the year, but more needs to be done industry wide, and of course, more chargers also need to be built. In the interim, Gruber says the best thing EV drivers can do until charging improves is to plan ahead and "prepare for the unexpected."

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nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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So jalopnik is in on the anti bev conspiracy. Thx.

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Or maybe you could use some common sense. Like he said, there are over 1mm electricians in the US and your article says there are 4000 chargers out of order. Even if it took 1 full time electrician for each one, that would 0.3% of the total electricians in this country. Needless to say, it wouldn't take anywhere near that. Maybe use your brain instead of just posting stuff you randomly find on the internet.

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Not every electrician can work on these chargers, clearly. Some of it is no doubt that operators just don't keep up with maintenance, which is as surprising as finding out a gas station has a filthy bathroom, really, basically just common sense:

Quote:

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So while you may drive your EV and charge it just fine at home, public charging is and has been a whole other issue, as detailed in a latest report by J.D. Power, via USA Today.

The report is part of a larger one done on EV leasing rates and vehicle availability showing that 20.8 percent of EV owners said they had problems with public charging in the first quarter of 2023. Many said the chargers just didn't work, which if you're edging really close to zero percent power on your battery, and this is the one charger you can get to, it certainly creates a big problem.

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Quote:

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Companies like Electrify America says that they plan to replace 600 aging EV chargers by the end of the year, but more needs to be done industry wide, and of course, more chargers also need to be built. In the interim, Gruber says the best thing EV drivers can do until charging improves is to plan ahead and "prepare for the unexpected."

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30,000 Tesla super chargers and destination chargers in the US. Over 100,000 individual charging ports in the US (I have a Level 2 charger I installed myself).

and we're talking about the number of electrians and 4000 chargers out of order LMAO.....I'm starting to believe in my Tesla again nortex97...you're losing your mojo. keep searching twitter for better articles!!!

Somehow I knew the next response would be "but Tesla!"

nortex97 said:

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Somehow I knew the next response would be "but Tesla!"

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should i include all the non-Tesla EV chargers out there...because then your 4000 'out of order' charger number gets even less meaningful LMAO!

This does make sense as an explanation; EV charging stations just are not really 'good' business models:

Quote:

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The Dept. of Transportation announced a new $100 million program to fund repair of the all-too-many broken public EV chargers in the USA. An August report from J.D. Power reported about 20% of non-Tesla charging sessions fail in some way, with a number of 4% for Tesla. The funds will go to service around 6,000 charging stations marked as "temporarily unavailable."

Yesterday, I reported on a long road trip in Utah and Nevada far from pubic charging, including reports of several failed charging sessions or broken CCS stations. While the Tesla experience is generally highly dependable, the same is not true for cars with only CCS charging.

The federal subsidy program reflects several elements of "gasoline thinking" and does not account for the reason all these stations are broken in the first place. Many of these broken stations were put in with subsidies, and a serious fraction were put in without a significant business reason. Very few of them are a viable business, selling electrical energy at a profit.

When a station is not put in for a business reason, and it's not bringing in earnings like a business, it is unfortunately a natural consequence that there is little motivation to maintain it when it breaks. As a result, it is not uncommon to find broken stations, and indeed stations that have sat broken for days, weeks and even months. Owners don't care or don't have the funding for maintenance.

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Quote:

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The main useful type of public charging is fast charging. Drivers with home or office charging do not use fast charging in their home city, only on road trips. The Tesla network was not created to sell electricity as a business, the way a gas station might. Rather, at first it was free to Tesla drivers and built for the different business reason of selling cars. Today, most drivers are charged by the kWh for their fast charging at what Tesla says is a break-even basis, but the original purpose of selling cars remains. People buy Teslas because they are the only cars that reliably have low-hassle road trips. This will fade as Tesla opens up its network to other cars, and several major OEMs have agreed to switch to using Tesla's NACS connector and network.

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I'm sure the Forbes writer was just wrong about his assertion that there could be future negative consequences within the Tesla network, as everything is always great for Tesla drivers, but otherwise this is a real concern about the long term challenges around public chargers.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446.amp

https://news.sky.com/story/luton-airport-fire-emergency-crews-respond-to-huge-blaze-at-car-park-12981928

Giant airport parking garage catches fire, causes structural damage.

EV spontaneously combust?


(Edited to add sky News link.... which actually has the story on the Luton airport fire in the link)

Dawnguard said:

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www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446.amp

Giant airport parking garage catches fire, causes structural damage.

EV spontaneously combust?

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Per the article
"He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" car and then spread through the building."

So much for Nortex's theory that EVs are the only ones that cause major fires.

Yes - looks like it's being reported that it was not an ev now. That's what I get for posting before coffee.

Kansas Kid said:

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Dawnguard said:

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www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446.amp

Giant airport parking garage catches fire, causes structural damage.

EV spontaneously combust?

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Per the article
"He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" car and then spread through the building."

So much for Nortex's theory that EVs are the only ones that cause major fires.

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If you could kindly refrain from lying about what I believe or have stated I'd appreciate it. It drags the conversation down to have to address such ad homs.

Specifically as to fires, EV's represent something like 2 percent of the vehicles on the road today, and again even fewer of the total vehicles by percent that are over 10 years old (I'm feeling too lazy to look up precise figures).

EV's are not the only vehicles that cause major fires.

EV fires are much more dangerous than ICE vehicle fires due to their thermal runaway and ability to start not just when the vehicle is hot/just parked but anytime, charging or not, due to the battery thermal management issues that can arise. They require massive amounts of water to extinguish or are left to burn for sometimes days.

It's logical and natural to suspect/be curious about whether any given car/vehicle fire is driven by a huge lithium ion battery or not.

Thanks for the courtesy, and interest in my concerns and my interest in my family and fellow man. God bless and have a great day!

That is horrifying. Yet another ICE vehicle bursts into flames and causes the collapse of a parking garage.

nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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Dawnguard said:

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www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446.amp

Giant airport parking garage catches fire, causes structural damage.

EV spontaneously combust?

---

Per the article
"He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" car and then spread through the building."

So much for Nortex's theory that EVs are the only ones that cause major fires.

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If you could kindly refrain from lying about what I believe or have stated I'd appreciate it. It drags the conversation down to have to address such ad homs.

Specifically as to fires, EV's represent something like 2 percent of the vehicles on the road today, and again even fewer of the total vehicles by percent that are over 10 years old (I'm feeling too lazy to look up precise figures).

EV's are not the only vehicles that cause major fires.

EV fires are much more dangerous than ICE vehicle fires due to their thermal runaway and ability to start not just when the vehicle is hot/just parked but anytime, charging or not, due to the battery thermal management issues that can arise. They require massive amounts of water to extinguish or are left to burn for sometimes days.

It's logical and natural to suspect/be curious about whether any given car/vehicle fire is driven by a huge lithium ion battery or not.

Thanks for the courtesy, and interest in my concerns and my interest in my family and fellow man. God bless and have a great day!

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Aren't you the one that said they would ask their neighbors to keep their EVs outside if they get one?

"It's to the point I think I will have to have a conversation if the neighbor on either side gets one. Don't think it will happen in the next couple years anyway but you never know. I'll probably ask them to keep it outside just out of respect. They are good people, and I think they'd be receptive to hearing about the dangers."

After this fire in Luton, are you going to ask them to keep their diesel vehicles out of their garage as well?

PS. Gasoline is worse because it is easier to have it catch on fire and it's vapors are more explosive if there is a fire.

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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Dawnguard said:

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www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446.amp

Giant airport parking garage catches fire, causes structural damage.

EV spontaneously combust?

---

Per the article
"He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" car and then spread through the building."

So much for Nortex's theory that EVs are the only ones that cause major fires.

---

If you could kindly refrain from lying about what I believe or have stated I'd appreciate it. It drags the conversation down to have to address such ad homs.

Specifically as to fires, EV's represent something like 2 percent of the vehicles on the road today, and again even fewer of the total vehicles by percent that are over 10 years old (I'm feeling too lazy to look up precise figures).

EV's are not the only vehicles that cause major fires.

EV fires are much more dangerous than ICE vehicle fires due to their thermal runaway and ability to start not just when the vehicle is hot/just parked but anytime, charging or not, due to the battery thermal management issues that can arise. They require massive amounts of water to extinguish or are left to burn for sometimes days.

It's logical and natural to suspect/be curious about whether any given car/vehicle fire is driven by a huge lithium ion battery or not.

Thanks for the courtesy, and interest in my concerns and my interest in my family and fellow man. God bless and have a great day!

---

Aren't you the one that said they would ask their neighbors to keep their EVs outside if they get one?

"It's to the point I think I will have to have a conversation if the neighbor on either side gets one. Don't think it will happen in the next couple years anyway but you never know. I'll probably ask them to keep it outside just out of respect. They are good people, and I think they'd be receptive to hearing about the dangers."

After this fire in Luton, are you going to ask them to keep their diesel vehicles out of their garage as well?

PS. Gasoline is worse because it is easier to have it catch on fire and it's vapors are more explosive if there is a fire.

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Yes I said that because it's true. It's also irrelevant to the lie you told about what I stated or believe. I'm starting to think you are the spouse or same person as an ev brand jihadist I've been forced to ignore due to their repeated dishonesty.

Sort of sad really.

nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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Dawnguard said:

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www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446.amp

Giant airport parking garage catches fire, causes structural damage.

EV spontaneously combust?

---

Per the article
"He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" car and then spread through the building."

So much for Nortex's theory that EVs are the only ones that cause major fires.

---

If you could kindly refrain from lying about what I believe or have stated I'd appreciate it. It drags the conversation down to have to address such ad homs.

Specifically as to fires, EV's represent something like 2 percent of the vehicles on the road today, and again even fewer of the total vehicles by percent that are over 10 years old (I'm feeling too lazy to look up precise figures).

EV's are not the only vehicles that cause major fires.

EV fires are much more dangerous than ICE vehicle fires due to their thermal runaway and ability to start not just when the vehicle is hot/just parked but anytime, charging or not, due to the battery thermal management issues that can arise. They require massive amounts of water to extinguish or are left to burn for sometimes days.

It's logical and natural to suspect/be curious about whether any given car/vehicle fire is driven by a huge lithium ion battery or not.

Thanks for the courtesy, and interest in my concerns and my interest in my family and fellow man. God bless and have a great day!

---

Aren't you the one that said they would ask their neighbors to keep their EVs outside if they get one?

"It's to the point I think I will have to have a conversation if the neighbor on either side gets one. Don't think it will happen in the next couple years anyway but you never know. I'll probably ask them to keep it outside just out of respect. They are good people, and I think they'd be receptive to hearing about the dangers."

After this fire in Luton, are you going to ask them to keep their diesel vehicles out of their garage as well?

PS. Gasoline is worse because it is easier to have it catch on fire and it's vapors are more explosive if there is a fire.

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Yes I said that because it's true. It's also irrelevant to the lie you told about what I stated or believe. I'm starting to think you are the spouse or same person as an ev brand jihadist I've been forced to ignore due to their repeated dishonesty.

Sort of sad really.

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My apologies. I didn't realize you believe that all vehicles can cause major fires that can burn down houses and parking garages. You have only mentioned EVs as a concern and I jumped to a conclusion that was incorrect.

A little hypocritical for him to tell you not to put words in his mouth but then make the assumption, repeatedly I might add, that all EV buyers care about being green despite just about every EV owner on this thread telling him it wasn't a factor in the purchase.

I am unaware of any major program that significantly subsidized the expansion of charging networks in this country. Here's the WSJ

Quote:

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Government subsidies for electric vehicles in the U.S. aren't as wide-reaching as in other countries, and before the infrastructure package was signed into law in November, didn't do much to address charging infrastructure.

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There have been local subsidies for installing EV chargers at home and at residences, but not the public fast chargers that you're talking about.

There are now subsidies that are provided by the federal government to the states to distribute to companies, but those had not been on the books until the IRA was signed and didn't begin awards until this year after the requirements of the subsidies were finalized.

I am however aware of a $2 billion settlement between the DoE and VW that required VW to invest in the advancement of electric vehicles, which was primarily done through the creation and investment into a charging company called Electrify America, which stands as the second largest fast charging network in the country. Funny thing about forcing people to spend money on a project is they don't exactly do it with their best foot forward, which is why many charging stations have fallen into disrepair.

That's why Tesla's charging network functions fine whereas the EA's network does not. Tesla spends about 1/5th as much on charging infrastructure installations than their average competitor and Musk claims that their target profit margin across their network is 10%. That's after accounting for maintenance and installation costs. They did 9 TWh of charging in 2022, estimating profit by taking $.30 per kWh and 10% profitability it gets you $280 million of profit during the year from only 4 million vehicles.

Then you have to contend with the fact that gas stations actually aren't that profitable by selling gas, far less profitable than Musk's claimed profitability from Supercharging, and the way they sustain their business is the sales from their co-located convenience stores that have the added benefit of reducing the rate of vandalism and associated maintenance costs. Whereas gas pumps are in well lit, full view of the convenience store discouraging damage. What happens to EV charging when they start achieving priority due to increasing market penetration? Cost to operate goes down, profitability goes up.

The base premise of the article is correct in that subsidies for charging infrastructure, at least public fast chargers, is likely not the most efficient spend, but again misses the exact reason why they have failed/haven't been repaired. What the article misses, however, is that there are reliability metrics in the subsidy award that have to be met in order to receive the subsidy. Whether or not governments actually hold the companies to that standard is another story.

And before you start crying "this is why I don't talk about Tesla, because it's a cult" it's not why. You don't like discussing Tesla, because there's mountains of good information about the business and you have to contend with the best implementation of a business rather than the worst, because the best survive and the worst die. If you were discussing the viability of the gas auto business you wouldn't be looking at Saturn to determine viability.

Another day, another recall.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12613413/amp/High-end-electric-car-recalled-battery-fire-risk.html

"But but … it's only a few hundred! It's not Tesla this time! Etc.!"

I was told that Porsche was the true Tesla EV killer because of Teslas "quality issues".