hph6203 said:

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I am unaware of any major program that significantly subsidized the expansion of charging networks in this country.

I am however aware of a $2 billion settlement between the DoE and VW that required VW to invest in the advancement of electric vehicles, which was primarily done through the creation and investment into a charging company called Electrify America, which stands as the second largest fast charging network in the country. Funny thing about forcing people to spend money on a project is they don't exactly do it with their best foot forward, which is why many charging stations have fallen into disrepair.

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I guess the whole $7.5 billion to build 500,000 last year was a lie?

Gas stations are what should logically be subsidized as a community feature since the government is pushing so many of their rich white customers toward EV's. Yes, I'm generally ignoring your 5 paragraph Tesla monologue, as a personal choice, but I'll address a couple general points you perhaps accidentally began to touch on.

The DoE like much of the federal government has used lawfare to direct criminal penalties to pet causes far and wide, not least of course being the CFPB, Pocahontas' outfit.

Regardless, it's investments in the 'last mile' to get so many level two chargers into so many homes that is going to be a huge issue (or one of them; I think I've documented dozens of pages back that utilities estimate a cost of something like 7500 bucks of support needed for each new EV sold). For non-religious readers, think about a 70 year old home, and the various wiring challenges/code issues that invariably pop up over time.

We have an aging electrical system and homes as well in this country, while the newest generations apartments are…well let's just say not generally 'overbuilt' or spec'ed out from a safety perspective, broadly speaking. Adding all of this is very dangerous not just up front/expensive, but as it ages over time, and I hope it can be stopped. Throwing billions of federal tax dollars at it up front won't/wouldn't make it safer/better in 2050 and beyond. We don't want our future distributed BEV charging network to be akin to VA healthcare of today.

The video of the Range Rover exploding is impressive. I wouldn't have expected that kind of fire ball from a diesel vehicle.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/lutonairport/video-3035293/Video-Moment-car-explodes-causing-huge-fire-London-Luton-Airport.html

Kansas Kid said:

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The video of the Range Rover exploding is impressive. I wouldn't have expected that kind of fire ball from a diesel vehicle.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/lutonairport/video-3035293/Video-Moment-car-explodes-causing-huge-fire-London-Luton-Airport.html

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Diesel has more energy density than gasoline. I'm not surprised to re-learn you are not in any way an engineer.

Quote:

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Regardless, it's investments in the 'last mile' to get so many level two chargers into so many homes that is going to be a huge issue (or one of them; I think I've documented dozens of pages back that utilities estimate a cost of something like 7500 bucks of support needed for each new EV sold). For non-religious readers, think about a 70 year old home, and the various wiring challenges/code issues that invariably pop up over time.

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Dude it's a 240v/50 amp drop. Basically the equivalent of adding a second dryer to your house. And for most people it would need to run about 8 hours a week.

nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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The video of the Range Rover exploding is impressive. I wouldn't have expected that kind of fire ball from a diesel vehicle.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/lutonairport/video-3035293/Video-Moment-car-explodes-causing-huge-fire-London-Luton-Airport.html

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Diesel has more energy density than gasoline. I'm not surprised to re-learn you are not in any way an engineer.

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As a refinery engineer, I assure you I know my stuff. It has more energy but the smaller petroleum molecules are more explosive due to their ability to vaporize. Our biggest fear is a propane vapor cloud which has way less energy density than diesel.

With your analogy, asphalt would be the most explosive material in a refinery since it is the highest energy density liquid routing found in a refinery.
Next….

Ignore list updated.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Regardless, it's investments in the 'last mile' to get so many level two chargers into so many homes that is going to be a huge issue (or one of them; I think I've documented dozens of pages back that utilities estimate a cost of something like 7500 bucks of support needed for each new EV sold). For non-religious readers, think about a 70 year old home, and the various wiring challenges/code issues that invariably pop up over time.

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Dude it's a 240v/50 amp drop. Basically the equivalent of adding a second dryer to your house. And for most people it would need to run about 8 hours a week.

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As people will tend to want to charge their cars in their garage, that drop would be fairly easy as well, close to where the electric panel is anyways.

Bubblez said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Regardless, it's investments in the 'last mile' to get so many level two chargers into so many homes that is going to be a huge issue (or one of them; I think I've documented dozens of pages back that utilities estimate a cost of something like 7500 bucks of support needed for each new EV sold). For non-religious readers, think about a 70 year old home, and the various wiring challenges/code issues that invariably pop up over time.

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Dude it's a 240v/50 amp drop. Basically the equivalent of adding a second dryer to your house. And for most people it would need to run about 8 hours a week.

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As people will tend to want to charge their cars in their garage, that drop would be fairly easy as well, close to where the electric panel is anyways.

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You guys are so much smarter than your utilities and boston consulting. LOL.

More (McKinsey):

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In response, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) provides $7.5 billion to develop the country's EV-charging infrastructure. The goal is to install 500,000 public chargerspublicly accessible charging stations compatible with all vehicles and technologiesnationwide by 2030. However, even the addition of half a million public chargers could be far from enough. In a scenario in which half of all vehicles sold are zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) by 2030in line with federal targetswe estimate that America would require 1.2 million public EV chargers and 28 million private EV chargers by that year.2 All told, the country would need almost 20 times more chargers than it has now.

Merely setting up more charging stations isn't all that matters. The BIL highlights equity, to name one specific priority. Electricity purchased at a public charger can cost five to ten times more than electricity at a private one. To keep EVs powered up, public charging stations will probably need to be economical, equitably distributed, appealing to use, and wired to a robust power grid. They will also probably have to present a viable business opportunity for the companies expected to install and operate them. States and businesses could better fulfill America's need for public charging by taking such considerations into account in their planning efforts.

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Equity! Not just mandates, but that's one of the government WEF watch words around BEV's.

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As the number of EVs on the road increases, annual demand for electricity to charge them would surge from 11 billion kilowatt-hours (kWh) now to 230 billion kWh in 2030, according to our scenario-based modeling. The demand estimate for 2030 represents approximately 5 percent of current total electricity demand in the United States. Our modeling indicates that nearly 30 million chargers would be needed to deliver so much electricity in that year. While most of these chargers would be installed at residences, 1.2 million would be public chargers, installed at on-the-go locations and at destinations where vehicles are parked for long periods (Exhibit 2). We estimate that the cost of hardware, planning, and installation for this amount of public charging infrastructure would come to more than $35 billion over the period to 2030 (Exhibit 3).

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Nortex
In case you don't believe me on gasoline vs diesel, I decided to link a discussions from a third party since you say I am in no way an engineer.

https://drivinvibin.com/2022/12/14/is-diesel-more-explosive-than-gasoline/

The claim is that the current charging infrastructure that has already been deployed is in disrepair due to subsidies. There have been no major deployments of funds to increase the distribution of the existing charging infrastructure and the subsidization of the charging network is NOT the reason it is in disrepair. Literally the 3rd sentence I wrote in the post you quoted, but, doing what you normally do, you didn't read the articles/information you were presented with and instead sought information that confirmed your flawed understanding.

hph6203 said:

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There are now subsidies that are provided by the federal government to the states to distribute to companies, but those had not been on the books until the IRA was signed and didn't begin awards until this year after the requirements of the subsidies were finalized.

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Here is the announcement from the White House of the finalization of the standards required to receive funding for the expansion of the charging infrastructure in this country. It occurred on February 15th of this year. The requirements for distribution include provisions for uptime, i.e. if the chargers fall into disrepair there are no subsidies. Do I agree with the subsidies? No, as I stated in my initial post, but they are not the reason for the current state of the charging infrastructure. The VW penalties are.

hph6203 said:

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The claim is that the current charging infrastructure that has already been deployed is in disrepair due to subsidies. There have been no major deployments of funds to increase the distribution of the existing charging infrastructure and the subsidization of the charging network is NOT the reason it is in disrepair. Literally the 3rd sentence I wrote in the post you quoted, but, doing what you normally do, you didn't read the articles/information you were presented with and instead sought information that confirmed your flawed understanding.

hph6203 said:

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There are now subsidies that are provided by the federal government to the states to distribute to companies, but those had not been on the books until the IRA was signed and didn't begin awards until this year after the requirements of the subsidies were finalized.

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Here is the announcement from the White House of the finalization of the standards required to receive funding for the expansion of the charging infrastructure in this country. It occurred on February 15th of this year. The requirements for distribution include provisions for uptime, i.e. if the chargers fall into disrepair there are no subsidies. Do I agree with the subsidies? No, as I stated in my initial post, but they are not the reason for the current state of the charging infrastructure. The VW penalties are.

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You're leaving out all the charging equity costs and consulting experts. I have re-read that a couple times and am not sure how VW is responsible for the poor state of the charging infrastructure in the US today. That's a leap to a conclusion I just can't wrap my head around. But whatever, you do you.

It seems like there are a lot of plans/demand built up for government subsidies for charging infrastructure coming up (generally relying on metals refined in China/products from China, oh btw).

That's counterproductive for those of us who don't ascribe to the sacrosanct role of BEV's in the US/Europe solving "AGW" or 'climate change.' But I can't bring that up because this thread has BEV believers who (nearly) unanimously reject the environment as a reason for their denunciation of those of us who don't want EV's for political reasons, or something.

Electrify America is a charging network operated underneath VW as a penalty for circumventing emissions testing on their diesel vehicles (article was previously provided to you, but you didn't read it). It mandated that they spend $2 billion by 2026 on building a charging network/advancing the adoption of EVs (primary spend on the charging network). A business they did not voluntarily enter into. I'm not sure how you're struggling to understand how a company forced into a business is less likely to operate efficiently/with interest in the business than one that voluntarily enters into the business, even if a portion of the expenses are subsidized by the government.

You readily believed that it was subsidies that caused the failing networks before I pointed out (correctly) that there were no significant subsidies in the development of the current charging networks. If you believe the business is non-viable from the outset, why would you attempt to make it viable? It's why they spend 5x as much installing a single charging port than Tesla and their current business operations are unsustainable as they subcontract out basically the entirety of their operations. The evidence is right there in front of you that it's true because you have Tesla as a counter-example of a company non-subsidized (up until this year) in their charging business operating without issue. The subsidies are stupid, but they are not why the charging infrastructure is in the state it's currently in. Lack of interest from the business operators are, which is resultant of the investment being done as a form of penalty not because the government has disincentivized them through subsidization.


Can't wait for your subtle topic shift and subsequent blasting of articles and quotations you haven't fully read or read within context as the initial article denouncing subsidization was not sourced from an article arguing against EVs, but rather as an argument against the subsidies for DC fast charger repair to companies that had little interest in maintaining them in the first place and rather shifting to subsidizing the drivers in their charging costs so the driver determines who should receive the money by virtue of the company's willingness and capacity to maintain their own network.

You notice how Nortex said nothing after he insulted me saying how I wasn't an engineer with regard to my knowledge of the explosiveness of fuels. He hates being proven wrong and never admits it.

Kansas Kid said:

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You notice how Nortex said nothing after he insulted me saying how I wasn't an engineer with regard to my knowledge of the explosiveness of fuels. He hates being proven wrong and never admits it.

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Proven? LOL. I don't believe you at all. You betrayed your basic ignorance a few different times today, and I'm not gonna go through some sort of semantic motions to point it out to you further.

Sorry Tesla fans, I don't take you seriously.

nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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You notice how Nortex said nothing after he insulted me saying how I wasn't an engineer with regard to my knowledge of the explosiveness of fuels. He hates being proven wrong and never admits it.

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Proven? LOL. I don't believe you at all. You betrayed your basic ignorance a few different times today, and I'm not gonna go through some sort of semantic motions to point it out to you further.

Sorry Tesla fans, I don't take you seriously.

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My ignorance? You are the one saying diesel is more explosive than gasoline. Show any proof on this. I can show you tons of articles to the contrary.

You were also the one saying there are a lot of rare earth metals in EV batteries.

Quote:

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Sorry Tesla fans, I don't take you seriously.

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Remember, this poster is above snarky replies and only wants open objective dialogue regarding EV's

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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You notice how Nortex said nothing after he insulted me saying how I wasn't an engineer with regard to my knowledge of the explosiveness of fuels. He hates being proven wrong and never admits it.

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Proven? LOL. I don't believe you at all. You betrayed your basic ignorance a few different times today, and I'm not gonna go through some sort of semantic motions to point it out to you further.

Sorry Tesla fans, I don't take you seriously.

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My ignorance? You are the one saying diesel is more explosive than gasoline. Show any proof on this. I can show you tons of articles to the contrary.

You were also the one saying there are a lot of rare earth metals in EV batteries.

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You're exposing yourself again.

No, I didn't.

You expressed shock at the diesel fire, categorizing it as an explosion, based on a 22 second security camera clip of a fireball, to which I responded with…the basic fact that diesel has more energy density than gasoline and that your reaction betrayed a basic lack of engineering training given your post, and you responded with a Google search discussing explosive properties of gas vs. diesel (which was irrelevant of course).

Don't go claiming, as 'another' poster did/does frequently, that I said things that I didn't and we can just chit chat about why I won't buy an EV. Or just lie/fib about it more, either way.

I also don't want to discuss vaccine efficacy. Have a nice night. I'm adding you to my ignore list of 3.

This topic needs to die. I don't think the OP was ever convinced otherwise relative to his postulate. And it is too late for me to convince me EVs are the worst. This was the last time I look at this post.

JUST IN — For the first time ever:

EV sales in the U.S. jumped past 300,000 (in Q3).

A *49.8%* increase from a year ago.

(via Cox Automotive)

— CarDealershipGuy (@GuyDealership) October 12, 2023

This thread has become a dumpster fire. A dumpster full of EV batteries.

Bubblez said:

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JUST IN — For the first time ever:

EV sales in the U.S. jumped past 300,000 (in Q3).

A *49.8%* increase from a year ago.

(via Cox Automotive)

— CarDealershipGuy (@GuyDealership) October 12, 2023

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Keep reading the article. Cox Automotive said the entire auto industry was up by double digits YoY for Q3. Most notable was Honda, up by almost 53%, and Nissan, up over 40%.

Honda US sales were down 10% from 2021 in 2022. Nissan's U.S. sales were down 25%. They are both coming off a low base. EV sales were up 65% from 2021 to 2022. EVs are taking market share.

Overall market was up 16.3% compared to the EV growth.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/

This is the amazing story of how Tesla saved the life of one of the first Israelis to face Hamas. The story appeared on Walla website (link in the comments):

This is not how C, a resident of Kibbutz Mefalsim, planned to spend last Shabbat. But minutes after the Hamas forces… pic.twitter.com/CV70BrxihG

— גלעד אלפר Gilad Alper (@giladalper) October 13, 2023

Good story. Praise God.

This thread will not age well in 2+ years.

I had the same debate with an Anti EV person 2 yrs ago. He said the big 3 OEM would kill Tesla given their Economies of scale, manufacturing knowledge, blah blah blah.

2023 - $100 on who makes more EVs Tesla vs GM/F/Stellantis. He already admitted defeat. But didn't give up.
2024 $ - $100 same bet. In No way are the big 3 getting anywhere close to Tesla.

The ignorance when it comes to EVs and esp Tesla is mind blowing to me. I think of this forum as mostly educated people but for some reason can't see what is staring them in the face.

The EV movement and especially Cybertruck will be the final nail in F/GM/Stellantis if the UAW doesn't do it first. Biden and the dems will need to figure out a way to bail them out soon.

The Tesla truck is so hideous I don't think it will catch on. I saw one in the wild, it's even uglier in person.

Maybe, maybe not. We could define BEV resistance as winning so long as some ICE cars are allowed to exist, as some define victory in other matters. To be sure, it's still the majority of Americans:

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The United States is in the middle of an electric green wave. Electric vehicle sales are expected to reach 40% of total light vehicle sales by 2030, and some forecasters even see it topping 50% by the end of the decade. While it seems the transition from gas powered cars to electric vehicles is going to be a swift one in the U.S., new polling from Yahoo Finance and Ipsos finds Americans are still very skeptical of that transformation.

Consumers said concerns such as cost, range, available charging infrastructure, and environmental impact weighed on their decision of whether or not to purchase a fully electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid. Yahoo Finance partnered with Ipsos to conduct a survey asking 1,025 Americans their EV buying preferences. The poll was conducted between Sept. 29 and Oct. 1, 2023.

Overall, 57% of respondents said they were not likely to purchase an electric vehicle (defined as either fully electric or plug-in hybrid) the next time they purchase a vehicle. Only 31% of respondents were likely to purchase an electric vehicle, while 11% said they didn't know.

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In any case, I think both sides on this thread have pushed/educated people to generally resist BEV adoption personally/among readership here. I'm positive the overbearing "Tesla" proponents have impacted folks negatively based on those attitudes.

nortex97 said:

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In any case, I think both sides on this thread have pushed/educated people to generally resist BEV adoption personally/among readership here. I'm positive the overbearing "Tesla" proponents have impacted folks negatively based on those attitudes.

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exactly what attitudes are you referring? The ones that are correcting "alternative facts"?

Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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The video of the Range Rover exploding is impressive. I wouldn't have expected that kind of fire ball from a diesel vehicle.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/lutonairport/video-3035293/Video-Moment-car-explodes-causing-huge-fire-London-Luton-Airport.html

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Diesel has more energy density than gasoline. I'm not surprised to re-learn you are not in any way an engineer.

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As a refinery engineer, I assure you I know my stuff. It has more energy but the smaller petroleum molecules are more explosive due to their ability to vaporize. Our biggest fear is a propane vapor cloud which has way less energy density than diesel.

With your analogy, asphalt would be the most explosive material in a refinery since it is the highest energy density liquid routing found in a refinery.
Next….

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That right there is a complete slap down of an idiot Texags poster who thought he knows everything.

Glorious!

knoxtom said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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The video of the Range Rover exploding is impressive. I wouldn't have expected that kind of fire ball from a diesel vehicle.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/lutonairport/video-3035293/Video-Moment-car-explodes-causing-huge-fire-London-Luton-Airport.html

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Diesel has more energy density than gasoline. I'm not surprised to re-learn you are not in any way an engineer.

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As a refinery engineer, I assure you I know my stuff. It has more energy but the smaller petroleum molecules are more explosive due to their ability to vaporize. Our biggest fear is a propane vapor cloud which has way less energy density than diesel.

With your analogy, asphalt would be the most explosive material in a refinery since it is the highest energy density liquid routing found in a refinery.
Next….

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That right there is a complete slap down of an idiot Texags poster who thought he knows everything.

Glorious!

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According to him, I am the idiot. What matters, according to him, is diesel has a higher energy density than gasoline in determining explosiveness. While he is correct about the energy density, he know nothing about fire risk and explosiveness of petroleum products but I am sure he will be back to say I am not an engineer and I know nothing.

PS. Don't tell him what caused the largest refinery explosion in the US at Texas City? Let him go on thinking it was diesel or vac tower bottoms (aka asphalt)

knoxtom said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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nortex97 said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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The video of the Range Rover exploding is impressive. I wouldn't have expected that kind of fire ball from a diesel vehicle.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/lutonairport/video-3035293/Video-Moment-car-explodes-causing-huge-fire-London-Luton-Airport.html

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Diesel has more energy density than gasoline. I'm not surprised to re-learn you are not in any way an engineer.

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As a refinery engineer, I assure you I know my stuff. It has more energy but the smaller petroleum molecules are more explosive due to their ability to vaporize. Our biggest fear is a propane vapor cloud which has way less energy density than diesel.

With your analogy, asphalt would be the most explosive material in a refinery since it is the highest energy density liquid routing found in a refinery.
Next….

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That right there is a complete slap down of an idiot Texags poster who thought he knows everything.

Glorious!

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An engineer wouldn't be surprised at the material sciences of a common product like diesel, or go look up something when called out, and lie about what I said and mocked him for in his ignorant initial demagogic snipe/snark.

It's entirely unsurprising diesel could be involved in a conflagration from a vehicle fire (I'm not sure but it might have been a hybrid diesel and the lithium battery surely as such could have been used as a thermal source). I have both his accounts on ignore now so I don't really care but thank you for bumping this.

Salute the flag/electric car brand/vaccine/war in Ukraine! Everyone must drive a tesla someday, and I only care about mandates or some such bs, forever war!

I am just shocked to learn that asphalt if not more explosive than diesel. I mean, just living life, I have yet to see explode/spontaneously catch fire even though sparks/cigarettes hit it daily.

Medaggie said:

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I am just shocked to learn that asphalt if not more explosive than diesel. I mean, just living life, I have yet to see explode/spontaneously catch fire even though sparks/cigarettes hit it daily.

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Usually you can do the same to diesel and it won't catch fire either. Do NOT try the same with gasoline and if you do it around propane, well let's just say we will likely say your name at Muster next year.

Quote:

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I'm positive the overbearing "Tesla" proponents have impacted folks negatively based on those attitudes.

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What kind of person makes or not makes a major purchasing decision based on political posts on a college football fan site?

Quote:

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Salute the flag/electric car brand/vaccine/war in Ukraine! Everyone must drive a tesla someday, and I only care about mandates or some such bs, forever war!

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Remember, this poster is here for real EV discussion and totally rejects snarky replies and derails.