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RoyVal said:

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I have a Tahoe Z71. It was my daily driver and now I use it to pull my Boston Whaler when I want to fish and to move ***** I bought a Tesla about a year ago. I'm in sales and I use the Tesla to get me back and forth every 2 weeks from Austin/San Antonio, Baton Rouge and New Orleans back to Houston.

I get why some folks like their gas guzzling cars. I was one of them. I also get why people love their EVs. I'm one of them now. It did not take me long to get used to NOT putting gas in my car, waking up every morning with a "full tank of gas" AKA a full charge, stopping on the road to super charge...which works fine for me since I have the bladder of a kid and have to stop to hit the bathroom every couple of hours anyway. It's nice not having to change my own oil every 6-8 weeks, which I was doing with my Tahoe (and yes..I still change my own oil).

I read through some of the criticisms of EVs. Some are valid....most are not. To me, my Tesla is superior to my Tahoe. Not in everyway...but overall...give me the Tesla. I specifically say Tesla (for now) because the Tesla Super Charging network in the US can't be touched....but with the agreements with other manufacturers...well we'll see.

But I'll tell you what....I drove a C6 convertible corvette 10 years ago...and this Tesla is FASTER and more fun that than my 6 speed Vette. I'll never buy another "new" gas vehicle again. Depending on how long my Tahoe lasts and how good the newer electric trucks/SUVs are with towing....I might buy a used truck at some point...but I seriously doubt it.

I know lots of people have a specific use case and try to generalize it to fit every scenario to make their point valid.....confirmation bias or whatever......but of the 38 pages I just read.....there are a lot of folks that don't have a CLUE what they are talking about when it comes to EVs.

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Your experience so far is in a false bubble. Wait until disaster, flood, hurricane, civil unrest, power failures, infrastructure crumbling, government restrictions, etc. killing people's freedom with thousands of oil cos and stations and trucks was impossible. Anyone or an algorithm can instantly, remotely, turn your **** off at will, for any reason or no reason. Thats why they are pushing it.

Show your vaccine card to charge, komrade.

He could always put out some solar panels and charge it over the course of a summer for a 50 or 80 mile drive.

nortex97 said:

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He could always put out some solar panels and charge it over the course of a summer for a 50 or 80 mile drive.

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nortex97 said:

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He could always put out some solar panels and charge it over the course of a summer for a 50 or 80 mile drive.

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Or a propane generator, like I would do. Keep pretending that Tesla owners are greenies.

cbr said:

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RoyVal said:

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I have a Tahoe Z71. It was my daily driver and now I use it to pull my Boston Whaler when I want to fish and to move ***** I bought a Tesla about a year ago. I'm in sales and I use the Tesla to get me back and forth every 2 weeks from Austin/San Antonio, Baton Rouge and New Orleans back to Houston.

I get why some folks like their gas guzzling cars. I was one of them. I also get why people love their EVs. I'm one of them now. It did not take me long to get used to NOT putting gas in my car, waking up every morning with a "full tank of gas" AKA a full charge, stopping on the road to super charge...which works fine for me since I have the bladder of a kid and have to stop to hit the bathroom every couple of hours anyway. It's nice not having to change my own oil every 6-8 weeks, which I was doing with my Tahoe (and yes..I still change my own oil).

I read through some of the criticisms of EVs. Some are valid....most are not. To me, my Tesla is superior to my Tahoe. Not in everyway...but overall...give me the Tesla. I specifically say Tesla (for now) because the Tesla Super Charging network in the US can't be touched....but with the agreements with other manufacturers...well we'll see.

But I'll tell you what....I drove a C6 convertible corvette 10 years ago...and this Tesla is FASTER and more fun that than my 6 speed Vette. I'll never buy another "new" gas vehicle again. Depending on how long my Tahoe lasts and how good the newer electric trucks/SUVs are with towing....I might buy a used truck at some point...but I seriously doubt it.

I know lots of people have a specific use case and try to generalize it to fit every scenario to make their point valid.....confirmation bias or whatever......but of the 38 pages I just read.....there are a lot of folks that don't have a CLUE what they are talking about when it comes to EVs.

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Your experience so far is in a false bubble. Wait until disaster, flood, hurricane, civil unrest, power failures, infrastructure crumbling, government restrictions, etc. killing people's freedom with thousands of oil cos and stations and trucks was impossible. Anyone or an algorithm can instantly, remotely, turn your **** off at will, for any reason or no reason. Thats why they are pushing it.

Show your vaccine card to charge, komrade.

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What a nut job! an algorithm? LOLOLOL!!!

cbr said:

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RoyVal said:

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I have a Tahoe Z71. It was my daily driver and now I use it to pull my Boston Whaler when I want to fish and to move ***** I bought a Tesla about a year ago. I'm in sales and I use the Tesla to get me back and forth every 2 weeks from Austin/San Antonio, Baton Rouge and New Orleans back to Houston.

I get why some folks like their gas guzzling cars. I was one of them. I also get why people love their EVs. I'm one of them now. It did not take me long to get used to NOT putting gas in my car, waking up every morning with a "full tank of gas" AKA a full charge, stopping on the road to super charge...which works fine for me since I have the bladder of a kid and have to stop to hit the bathroom every couple of hours anyway. It's nice not having to change my own oil every 6-8 weeks, which I was doing with my Tahoe (and yes..I still change my own oil).

I read through some of the criticisms of EVs. Some are valid....most are not. To me, my Tesla is superior to my Tahoe. Not in everyway...but overall...give me the Tesla. I specifically say Tesla (for now) because the Tesla Super Charging network in the US can't be touched....but with the agreements with other manufacturers...well we'll see.

But I'll tell you what....I drove a C6 convertible corvette 10 years ago...and this Tesla is FASTER and more fun that than my 6 speed Vette. I'll never buy another "new" gas vehicle again. Depending on how long my Tahoe lasts and how good the newer electric trucks/SUVs are with towing....I might buy a used truck at some point...but I seriously doubt it.

I know lots of people have a specific use case and try to generalize it to fit every scenario to make their point valid.....confirmation bias or whatever......but of the 38 pages I just read.....there are a lot of folks that don't have a CLUE what they are talking about when it comes to EVs.

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Your experience so far is in a false bubble. Wait until disaster, flood, hurricane, civil unrest, power failures, infrastructure crumbling, government restrictions, etc. killing people's freedom with thousands of oil cos and stations and trucks was impossible. Anyone or an algorithm can instantly, remotely, turn your **** off at will, for any reason or no reason. Thats why they are pushing it.

Show your vaccine card to charge, komrade.

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This is why I am not worried about this:

1 - like many, I am a two car family. My other car is ICE and has ~600 mile range. Note that ICE is not a panacea - during the Rita evacuation, gasoline was not available, and in widespread power outages, gasoline stations cannot provide gasoline.

2 - I have a Generac that, as long as natural gas to the house is available, can be used to charge my car in the unlikely event that the 300 miles range that I have every morning is not sufficient for handling a natural disaster.

cbr said:

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RoyVal said:

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I have a Tahoe Z71. It was my daily driver and now I use it to pull my Boston Whaler when I want to fish and to move ***** I bought a Tesla about a year ago. I'm in sales and I use the Tesla to get me back and forth every 2 weeks from Austin/San Antonio, Baton Rouge and New Orleans back to Houston.

I get why some folks like their gas guzzling cars. I was one of them. I also get why people love their EVs. I'm one of them now. It did not take me long to get used to NOT putting gas in my car, waking up every morning with a "full tank of gas" AKA a full charge, stopping on the road to super charge...which works fine for me since I have the bladder of a kid and have to stop to hit the bathroom every couple of hours anyway. It's nice not having to change my own oil every 6-8 weeks, which I was doing with my Tahoe (and yes..I still change my own oil).

I read through some of the criticisms of EVs. Some are valid....most are not. To me, my Tesla is superior to my Tahoe. Not in everyway...but overall...give me the Tesla. I specifically say Tesla (for now) because the Tesla Super Charging network in the US can't be touched....but with the agreements with other manufacturers...well we'll see.

But I'll tell you what....I drove a C6 convertible corvette 10 years ago...and this Tesla is FASTER and more fun that than my 6 speed Vette. I'll never buy another "new" gas vehicle again. Depending on how long my Tahoe lasts and how good the newer electric trucks/SUVs are with towing....I might buy a used truck at some point...but I seriously doubt it.

I know lots of people have a specific use case and try to generalize it to fit every scenario to make their point valid.....confirmation bias or whatever......but of the 38 pages I just read.....there are a lot of folks that don't have a CLUE what they are talking about when it comes to EVs.

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Your experience so far is in a false bubble. Wait until disaster, flood, hurricane, civil unrest, power failures, infrastructure crumbling, government restrictions, etc. killing people's freedom with thousands of oil cos and stations and trucks was impossible. Anyone or an algorithm can instantly, remotely, turn your **** off at will, for any reason or no reason. Thats why they are pushing it.

Show your vaccine card to charge, komrade.

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What a nut job.

aggiehawg said:

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The reason why is The Hubs has a hard time keeping the lake house golf cart charged, all of his tools charged.

We have multiple 200 amps drops on the ranch. But keeping that many things charged even on a trickle cell does not work forever. They die.

Until battery tech makes a HUGE advancement, EVs are futile.

Now, tell me why I am wrong.

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Then you have this...

Unsold Electric Cars May Be Signaling a Death Spiral for the Auto Industry

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As the future is fast approaching, virtually all the automobile manufacturers, through government mandates to reduce the emissions of their fleet of vehicles, are going all-in to only manufacture EV's in the coming years. To meet low emissions for their fleet of vehicles, we're most likely going to see fewer and fewer hybrids as the auto industry manufacturers need to eliminate the gasoline engines in hybrids to meet those lower emission targets.

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Current EV owners are dramatically different from most of the vehicle owners. Unlike the profile of current EV owners, many are single-car owners, and most of the potential car buyers are not as highly educated, nor as highly compensated as the elite EV owners. Mandating a change to EV ownership and forced austerity may face a rebellion from those that need affordable vehicle transportation.

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Coming soon to the US....a massive bailout for automakers that went broke while complying with inane government mandates.

A bailout for everyone but Tesla of course

Teslag said:

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A bailout for everyone but Tesla of course

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That's because they know they are about to get close to $100 billion from the USG. Telsa has also taken money from the government in several other forms.

Saying that Tesla hasn't taken money from the government in one form or another is a lie

But do they absolutely need it to stay solvent at this time?

But, wait! There's more good news!

The potential looming auto industry fiasco

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On top of that are grim results for those vehicles actually sold. In the second quarter of 2023, Ford lost $72,000 on every EV sold. While the latter is 'sort of' normal for new car platforms and EVs are nothing if not new platforms what isn't normal is for highly-touted/media-frenzy revolutionary new autos like the Ford Mustang Mach E EV to be selling under 3,000 units per month in the US as it is in 2023, two years after introduction (US sales peaked over 5,000 units per month shortly after introduction). In the second quarter of 2023, Ford sold 14,843 EVs (out of 513,662 vehicles sold by the company overall), a fairly meagre total considering the capital invested and the marketing campaigns. In the minds of most consumers, it seems an EV means a Tesla, and there is scant interest in anything else no matter the marketing hyperbole.

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Cuba and the US have had their differences, as would any neighbourhood where adjoining neighbours are fierce capitalists and fierce communists. While the ideological fervour may be fading Cuba is no longer as commie as it was, and the US is, well, like an ideological but malfunctioning fireworks show. Regardless, Cuba has not had access to modern automotive technology since the 1960s. As a result, streets still are full of ancient American cars, held together forever.

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Since you keep bringing how perfect Tesla is it needed to be mentioned.

We have some oilfield and mining equipment that are starting to need new battery packs after 24/7 use for a few years. They all hate the price and I have to remind them that if you buy an EV right now for $35k in a few years you will need to spend $20k on a new pack. This is one of the major downsides of EVs.

Unlike Tesla we can rebuild the packs, just most people don't have an extra pack laying around that we can use while the other one is getting refurbed. At this time everything we do is custom and for the most part specific to each customer.

P.U.T.U said:

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We have some oilfield and mining equipment that are starting to need new battery packs after 24/7 use for a few years. They all hate the price and I have to remind them that if you buy an EV right now for $35k in a few years you will need to spend $20k on a new pack. This is one of the major downsides of EVs.

Unlike Tesla we can rebuild the packs, just most people don't have an extra pack laying around that we can use while the other one is getting refurbed. At this time everything we do is custom and for the most part specific to each customer.

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Why does this keep getting repeated as if it's true. An EV battery pack is good for hundreds of thousands of miles. How many ICE vehicles are still on the road at 300,000 miles?

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I have to remind them that if you buy an EV right now for $35k in a few years you will need to spend $20k on a new pack. This is one of the major downsides of EVs.

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What a ridiculous load of bull ****

EV's have a standard 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the batteries.

For Tesla it's 8 years / 120,000 mile warranty

cbr said:

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Your experience so far is in a false bubble. Wait until disaster, flood, hurricane, civil unrest, power failures, infrastructure crumbling, government restrictions, etc. killing people's freedom with thousands of oil cos and stations and trucks was impossible. Anyone or an algorithm can instantly, remotely, turn your **** off at will, for any reason or no reason. Thats why they are pushing it.

Show your vaccine card to charge, komrade.

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Because there's no possible way that a disaster or an authoritarian government could cut off the supply of gasoline.

And also make it illegal to operate ICE vehicles on public roadways.

I design and sell electrical equipment that are mostly battery powered and have mentioned this several times to you but like everything you choose to ignore facts. We use multiple technologies of batteries based on the application

Tesla determines the battery life based on cycles and since ICE vehicles have miles and time warranties they calculated from there. The 18650 batteries in their older packs are rated for 2000 cycles, their newer once are rated for 4000 cycles. Hence why Tesla had a 4 year / 50k mile warranty until 2015.

Most of our customer's equipment runs 24/7 so we already have plenty of equipment with the batteries past their ratings, mostly due to how we program the packs.

Second owner will get screwed.

P.U.T.U said:

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I design and sell electrical equipment that are mostly battery powered and have mentioned this several times to you but like everything you choose to ignore facts. We use multiple technologies of batteries based on the application

Tesla determines the battery life based on cycles and since ICE vehicles have miles and time warranties they calculated from there. The 18650 batteries in their older packs are rated for 2000 cycles, their newer once are rated for 4000 cycles. Hence why Tesla had a 4 year / 50k mile warranty until 2015.

Most of our customer's equipment runs 24/7 so we already have plenty of equipment with the batteries past their ratings, mostly due to how we program the packs.

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And none of this changes the fact that a new EV buyer would not need to purchase a new battery back in "a few years" as they would be covered under the 8 year / 100k mile warranty.

It was a complete bull **** comment and you got called on it.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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cbr said:

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Your experience so far is in a false bubble. Wait until disaster, flood, hurricane, civil unrest, power failures, infrastructure crumbling, government restrictions, etc. killing people's freedom with thousands of oil cos and stations and trucks was impossible. Anyone or an algorithm can instantly, remotely, turn your **** off at will, for any reason or no reason. Thats why they are pushing it.

Show your vaccine card to charge, komrade.

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Because there's no possible way that a disaster or an authoritarian government could cut off the supply of gasoline.

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tens of thousands of private producers, millions of independently owned gas stations, millions of farms with 1000 plus gallons, 300 million people with 5-30 gallons around, that energy flow can't be arbitrarily terminated by government, and even if it tries, people can physically disobey.

right now, and even moreso in the future, any government, utilities, tesla, hackers, emp or infrastructure attack, solar flares, weather, whatever - all can immediately terminate your power - and therefore your freedom to travel - instantly, remotely, generally, at will, or by accident.

further, tesla, utilities, hackers, or government each have the capability to select you, personally, or because you fit their profile, and terminate your power remotely, instantly, on purpose, based on whatever criteria they choose.

how likely you think that is depends on your world view, but the ability is there, where it is not otherwise.



***PS- this is a huge issue with EV's, but they are not leaving ICE vehicles free to the owners anymore either.

the reason for the new generation of onstar, as well as the new ICE manufacturers' 'real time' satellite programming is an attempt to **** over owners of ICE vehicles too - but that is a different topic and it is not as effective).

Like all orwellian ****jobs, they create utopian sounding fairy fart labels. They call this bull**** their "vehicle intelligence platform', when it is actually designed to have real time satellite monitoring and control - which can work with module-controlled electric steering, brake and throttle, door locks, etc., to be able to assume control of your vehicle at will.

beware, if you buy a brand new vehicle, by a few years from now they will all have this ***** If you intend to actually own your car and be free to drive it, buy used and plan to keep them a long time. It is pretty hard to block this stuff already and getting worse.

P.U.T.U said:

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I design and sell electrical equipment that are mostly battery powered and have mentioned this several times to you but like everything you choose to ignore facts. We use multiple technologies of batteries based on the application

Tesla determines the battery life based on cycles and since ICE vehicles have miles and time warranties they calculated from there. The 18650 batteries in their older packs are rated for 2000 cycles, their newer once are rated for 4000 cycles. Hence why Tesla had a 4 year / 50k mile warranty until 2015.

Most of our customer's equipment runs 24/7 so we already have plenty of equipment with the batteries past their ratings, mostly due to how we program the packs.

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It was an 8-year 100,000-mile warranty in 2012 for the smallest battery and an 8-year unlimited-mile warranty for the largest battery. It was a 4-year 50,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty excluding the battery up until 2014 when the drivetrain was carved out from the bumper to bumper and given a warranty to match the battery.


https://web.archive.org/web/20120308114422/http://www.teslamotors.com/models/facts

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Model S comes with a 4 year or 50,000 mile, whichever comes first, new vehicle limited warranty. An additional warranty covers the battery and varies by kilowatt hour capacity.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120920072844/http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options

Seeing as the average vehicle on the road is 12.5 years and most Americans keep their vehicles 8 years EVs would destroy the used market since replacing the battery would cost more than the vehicle is worth. Think the average American can afford a $35k+ vehicle every 8 years when they have almost no savings? And what about those who cannot afford a new vehicle? The average cost of a 10 year old used vehicle is around $10k-15k which is way less than the cost of a new EV.

You can expect to lost about 20% of your range in those 8 years (industry requirement) so if it was rated for 300 miles you can only go 240 miles. Several EV manufactures are saying that after those 8 years you should buy another EV and use the batteries for backup power at your home.

Then you can consider the infrastructure cost of the charging station requirements to meet the 2030 requirements by the Biden administration. Estimates are around 1.2 million public and 28 million private charging stations will be needed (on the low end). Currently only 500,000 charging stations are in the budget at a total around $7.5 billion so we are north of $15 billion in just over 6 years.

I would love it if more people purchased EVs with what I do for a living but making mandates in such a short timeline is not financially smart.

You also have to follow the money, state and local governments are mandating the majority of their fleet to be electric. Mass transit is a huge market, especially buses and trucks. The current US department of energy secretary Jennifer Granholm held millions in Proterra that manufactures battery and propel systems for buses and her and her husband got caught for withholding their possession of Ford stock before the DOE gave Ford subsidies. Granholm has made millions from Proterra and Ford so lets not pretend that the EV push is solely for the environment, politicians are making millions in the name of "green energy".

What, you mean we shouldn't just trust the government folks running ICE vehicles out of the market for the (older technology) BEV versions that are more harmful to the environment, not to be doing totalitarian stuff just like they did with the covid lockdowns and vaccines and the ministry of disinformation attempts?

Liquid electrolyte EV's are just trash/glorified golf carts. Everything else is marketing/bull*****

I've learned that all cars are glorified golf carts since golf carts come in both ice and electric.

ShinerAggie said:

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aggiehawg said:

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The reason why is The Hubs has a hard time keeping the lake house golf cart charged, all of his tools charged.

We have multiple 200 amps drops on the ranch. But keeping that many things charged even on a trickle cell does not work forever. They die.

Until battery tech makes a HUGE advancement, EVs are futile.

Now, tell me why I am wrong.

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Then you have this...

Unsold Electric Cars May Be Signaling a Death Spiral for the Auto Industry

Quote:

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As the future is fast approaching, virtually all the automobile manufacturers, through government mandates to reduce the emissions of their fleet of vehicles, are going all-in to only manufacture EV's in the coming years. To meet low emissions for their fleet of vehicles, we're most likely going to see fewer and fewer hybrids as the auto industry manufacturers need to eliminate the gasoline engines in hybrids to meet those lower emission targets.

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Quote:

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Current EV owners are dramatically different from most of the vehicle owners. Unlike the profile of current EV owners, many are single-car owners, and most of the potential car buyers are not as highly educated, nor as highly compensated as the elite EV owners. Mandating a change to EV ownership and forced austerity may face a rebellion from those that need affordable vehicle transportation.

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Coming soon to the US....a massive bailout for automakers that went broke while complying with inane government mandates.

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That article is devastating!

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With new EV inventories beginning to increase on dealer lots, the auto industry has many challenges such as locating the buyers that may have serious concerns about a wide range of issues related to EVs including:

- driving range,
- vehicle reliability,
- price,
- the availability of electricity for the buildout of the charging infrastructure,
- charging time,
- the cost and lifespan of batteries and their environmental impact,
- the actual impact EVs will have on reducing carbon emissions,
- the growing statistics about uncontrollable fires of lithium batteries in EV's,
- problems with battery recycling and end-of-life management,
- concerns that the EV free ride of usage of highways and not paying fuel taxes is about to end with the Vehicle Mileage Tax (VMT), i.e., more costs for the EV owners of the future,
- concerns that home chargers are destined to follow the UK and be on separate meters so that EV charging will be at higher rates to help stabilize the electrical grid, again more costs for the EV owners of the future.

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That's a hell of a pivot you made from batteries die quick, just look at what Tesla used to give as a warranty to, well that wasn't true but they do definitely without question die quick, so quick that cars are throwaways after 8 years!

20% degradation in 8 years is not supported by real-world data. You're taking that claim of 20% degradation, then twisting it into a car with 20% degradation is not worth owning, and combining it with statements from manufacturers that after a certain amount (not 20%) of battery degradation, a vehicle will go to scrap and rather than scrapping the battery it can be repurposed as grid or residential storage extending its utility and reducing the cost of those products (a good thing that provides robustness to the grid), and then claiming a family is going to have to spend $35,000 on a new car every 8 years and destroying the used car market. That's non-sense.

This is an 8-year-old Model S 85D with 173,000 miles. It's at 80% state of charge with 193 miles of range (meaning max range of 240 miles) and had a range at the time of its sale of 270 miles. That's an 11% degradation in 8 years and 173,000 miles. Right in line with what Tesla reports for their battery degradation rate at 12% after 200,000 miles. That vehicle was driven 21,625 miles per year while the average driver drives ~14,000 miles. Battery degradation is a combination of time and charge cycles, but mostly charge cycles, and is front-loaded going from a pristine battery to one that has seem some use.

The NEVI program pays for 80%, not 100% of the charging station build out and it requires that the operators re-invest the revenues into either debt service, maintenance or expansion of the charging network. Meaning the $7.5 billion investment has a long tail. The totality of investment in charging infrastructure is unlikely to be limited to the dollars provided by the federal government, not if capitalism works and companies compete for customers.


As an aside, based upon you using your oil field applications as an analog to how long a vehicle battery will last, Tesla warranties their vehicles down to 70% capacity within 8 years, but for their stationary storage products, the Powerwall and Megapack, are warrantied to 80% capacity within 10 and 15 years respectively. The point being that the use case has more to do with the rate of degradation than the batteries themselves

Of course, all of this warranty talk assumes Tesla will still exist in 8-15 years. Heck, I wouldn't even bet on the USA existing in that same timeframe.

ShinerAggie said:

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Of course, all of this warranty talk assumes Tesla will still exist in 8-15 years. Heck, I wouldn't even bet on the USA existing in that same timeframe.

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Wow

The U.S. might not be, and then we can end all EV subsidies and mandates and the complaints can stop and people can stop accusing me of being for them just because I think it's a better technology for the vast majority of people. But you can bet Tesla will be.