techno-ag said:

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We knew the range was bad. Turns out Tesla lied, like VW's emissions software.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerated-ev-range-so-much-that-drivers-thought-cars-were-broken/amp/

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Tesla has consistently exaggerated the driving range of its electric vehicles, reportedly leading car owners to think something was broken when actual driving range was much lower than advertised. When these owners scheduled service appointments to fix the problem, Tesla canceled the appointments because there was no way to improve the actual distance Tesla cars could drive between charges, according to an investigation by Reuters.

In mid-2022, Tesla started routing range complaints to a "Diversion Team" that fielded up to 2,000 cases a week and "was expected to close about 750 cases a week," Reuters reported.

"Tesla years ago began exaggerating its vehicles' potential driving distanceby rigging their range-estimating software," the article published today said. "The company decided about a decade ago, for marketing purposes, to write algorithms for its range meter that would show drivers 'rosy' projections for the distance it could travel on a full battery, according to a person familiar with an early design of the software for its in-dash readouts."

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Another article.

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/tesla-allegedly-exaggerated-ev-range-suppressed-complaints-1234873638/

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If you're wondering why Tesla drivers haven't been more vocal about the issue, it could be because of efforts have allegedly been made to suppress complaints. Reuters reports that after the company became inundated with complaints about the issue, it created a secret "Diversion Team" based out of Las Vegas to cancel as many range-related service appointments as possible. The team reportedly closed hundreds of cases per week, and members would occasionally celebrate by striking a xylophone "triggering applause from coworkers who sometimes stood on desks," according to the story.

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Nice. Bad Elon for this one.

What's interesting to me is the range when you buy is based off the EPAs results. How much lower can the real world results be? I know mine always overestimated range but even that overestimate was lower than what the EPA said. Range wasn't my top concern so it was never a problem but I do have a hard time squaring that round peg.

"It depends" is a weak answer I know but keep in mind the batteries degrade in the real world around 8 or 10 percent a year, and that actual range is variable on things like the air temp (cold or hot uses more to cool/heat the battery plus AC and cabin heat). That Freon running through the battery, including when it is just sitting there all day waiting to be driven again, in our Texas Summers is powered by the battery.

So real-world range can't actually be stated as a fact for most folks. It's more like a range estimate depending on location/weather/use, assuming you trust the battery/car manufacturers in the first place. EPA rating? I trust the EPA (including maroney stickers) about as much as I trust the FBI, and as far as our federal gov't EPA bureaucrats, they are very motivated to pimp 'green' cars like everything else green.

nortex97 said:

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"It depends" is a weak answer I know but keep in mind the batteries degrade in the real world around 8 or 10 percent a year

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No it doesn't. - The federal government requires manufacturers to offer an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California does one better, mandating a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles.

-if it degrades to 70% after 9 years you get a new battery, Tesla would be broke if cars lost 10% a year.

My model 3 is down 2.2% after a year, from Teslafi, stats from my car and similar-

There are 69 vehicles with charges at your current odometer reading.
23 Vehicles have a higher range. 46 Vehicles have a lower range.
Your range is better than 67 % of similar users.

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and that actual range is variable on things like the air temp (cold or hot uses more to cool/heat the battery plus AC and cabin heat). That Freon running through the battery, including when it is just sitting there all day waiting to be driven again, in our Texas Summers is powered by the battery.

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The battery doesn't have Freon going through it, it is basically antifreeze.

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So real-world range can't actually be stated as a fact for most folks. It's more like a range estimate depending on location/weather/use, assuming you trust the battery/car manufacturers in the first place. EPA rating? I trust the EPA (including maroney stickers) about as much as I trust the FBI, and as far as our federal gov't EPA bureaucrats, they are very motivated to pimp 'green' cars like everything else green.

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Teslas have a screen telling you exactly where your energy is going, heat/cool/wind/hills/speed.

There are enough YouTube channels to tell you exactly how much range you will get in different scenarios. But unless you are trying drive 600+ miles a day, range doesn't really matter.

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keep in mind the batteries degrade in the real world around 8 or 10 percent a year

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What a ridiculous load of bull ****

Manhattan said:

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nortex97 said:

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"It depends" is a weak answer I know but keep in mind the batteries degrade in the real world around 8 or 10 percent a year

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No it doesn't. - The federal government requires manufacturers to offer an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California does one better, mandating a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles.

-if it degrades to 70% after 9 years you get a new battery, Tesla would be broke if cars lost 10% a year.

My model 3 is down 2.2% after a year, from Teslafi, stats from my car and similar-

There are 69 vehicles with charges at your current odometer reading.
23 Vehicles have a higher range. 46 Vehicles have a lower range.
Your range is better than 67 % of similar users.

Quote:

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and that actual range is variable on things like the air temp (cold or hot uses more to cool/heat the battery plus AC and cabin heat). That Freon running through the battery, including when it is just sitting there all day waiting to be driven again, in our Texas Summers is powered by the battery.

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The battery doesn't have Freon going through it, it is basically antifreeze.

Quote:

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So real-world range can't actually be stated as a fact for most folks. It's more like a range estimate depending on location/weather/use, assuming you trust the battery/car manufacturers in the first place. EPA rating? I trust the EPA (including maroney stickers) about as much as I trust the FBI, and as far as our federal gov't EPA bureaucrats, they are very motivated to pimp 'green' cars like everything else green.

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Teslas have a screen telling you exactly where your energy is going, heat/cool/wind/hills/speed.

There are enough YouTube channels to tell you exactly how much range you will get in different scenarios. But unless you are trying drive 600+ miles a day, range doesn't really matter.

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Keep in mind we now know Tesla set up those estimate screens to be far more rosier ranges than the cars are actually capable of.

Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

techno-ag said:

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We knew the range was bad. Turns out Tesla lied, like VW's emissions software.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerated-ev-range-so-much-that-drivers-thought-cars-were-broken/amp/

Quote:

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Tesla has consistently exaggerated the driving range of its electric vehicles, reportedly leading car owners to think something was broken when actual driving range was much lower than advertised. When these owners scheduled service appointments to fix the problem, Tesla canceled the appointments because there was no way to improve the actual distance Tesla cars could drive between charges, according to an investigation by Reuters.

In mid-2022, Tesla started routing range complaints to a "Diversion Team" that fielded up to 2,000 cases a week and "was expected to close about 750 cases a week," Reuters reported.

"Tesla years ago began exaggerating its vehicles' potential driving distanceby rigging their range-estimating software," the article published today said. "The company decided about a decade ago, for marketing purposes, to write algorithms for its range meter that would show drivers 'rosy' projections for the distance it could travel on a full battery, according to a person familiar with an early design of the software for its in-dash readouts."

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My biggest issue with Tesla right now is that their insurance is linked to your performance with their Beta software. If you engage self driving, sometimes, it auto disconnects you from it if the car/software thinks you did something overly dangerous/negligent (what is important is you did not) and then Tesla builds this error into your insurance premium. In the first day I was using, I had this happen 3 times and turned off the software after that. Since that time, they have been charging me a much higher insurance premium.

Any attorneys here see a potential class action lawsuit?

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No it doesn't. - The federal government requires manufacturers to offer an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California does one better, mandating a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles.

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Again, none of the government's business, especially since it isn't a safety issue. All the governmental interference creates a false economomy.

If EVs are as good as some on here assert, then they shouldn't need all the governmental "help". As with most topics on F16, government is the root of most problems.

Manhattan said:

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Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

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Nope. Wrong again.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerated-ev-range-so-much-that-drivers-thought-cars-were-broken/amp/

cecil77 said:

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Quote:

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No it doesn't. - The federal government requires manufacturers to offer an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California does one better, mandating a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles.

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Again, none of the government's business, especially since it isn't a safety issue. All the governmental interference creates a false economomy.

If EVs are as good as some on here assert, then they shouldn't need all the governmental "help". As with most topics on F16, government is the root of most problems.

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Then you'd be happy to know that Tesla's warranty exceeds the government minimums for most models

Manhattan said:

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Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

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Mine actually exceeded its estimate last week. Left San Antonio for north Texas and the computer planned a 15 minute charge stop at the temple buccees and another 10 minute stop in Alvarado. When I was 15 miles outside of Alvarado it canceled the stop and I made it to my destination with only one 15 minute charge stop.

techno-ag said:

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Manhattan said:

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Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

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Nope. Wrong again.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerated-ev-range-so-much-that-drivers-thought-cars-were-broken/amp/

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That article doesn't mention trip planning.

It's accurate enough to drive into BFEast Texas out of range of DCFC.

Teslag said:

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Manhattan said:

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Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

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Mine actually exceeded its estimate last week. Left San Antonio for north Texas and the computer planned a 15 minute charge stop at the temple buccees and another 10 minute stop in Alvarado. When I was 15 miles outside of Alvarado it canceled the stop and I made it to my destination with only one 15 minute charge stop.

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I know you see that as a positive. To me it would be a miserable experience for my car to tell me where/when to stop. And two stops from SA to North Texas. That's kinda nuts, isn't it? My vehicles all have a range of around 400 miles, and we use it. And if I stop for 15 minutes, I have had to go #2, which means never. And yes, I've timed my stops, usually 10 minutes or less.

Teslag said:

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cecil77 said:

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Quote:

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No it doesn't. - The federal government requires manufacturers to offer an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California does one better, mandating a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles.

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Again, none of the government's business, especially since it isn't a safety issue. All the governmental interference creates a false economomy.

If EVs are as good as some on here assert, then they shouldn't need all the governmental "help". As with most topics on F16, government is the root of most problems.

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Then you'd be happy to know that Tesla's warranty exceeds the government minimums for most models

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Not really. The standards shouldn't even exist, and if they didn't who knows what Tesla would publish?

cecil77 said:

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Quote:

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No it doesn't. - The federal government requires manufacturers to offer an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California does one better, mandating a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles.

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Again, none of the government's business, especially since it isn't a safety issue. All the governmental interference creates a false economomy.

If EVs are as good as some on here assert, then they shouldn't need all the governmental "help". As with most topics on F16, government is the root of most problems.

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It's the governments business to not have a bunch or ewaste laying around.

If I was in-charge I would force the inclusion of the disposal cost of an ev battery in the price until recycling is booming.

Nope, a free market would handle that. Government only gets in the way.

Teslag said:

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Manhattan said:

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Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

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Mine actually exceeded its estimate last week. Left San Antonio for north Texas and the computer planned a 15 minute charge stop at the temple buccees and another 10 minute stop in Alvarado. When I was 15 miles outside of Alvarado it canceled the stop and I made it to my destination with only one 15 minute charge stop.

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My Y is only a few months old but it tracks each trip and tells you why if your energy use was higher than expected. If I drive like a hyper miler I can use less energy than it expected.

I love the way it drives and never needing to stop for gas, which typically cost me 30 minutes a week, and I hate pumping with the fumes.

Did I mention almost no maintenance required and saving > $100 per month on fuel cost?

cecil77 said:

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Teslag said:

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Manhattan said:

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Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

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Mine actually exceeded its estimate last week. Left San Antonio for north Texas and the computer planned a 15 minute charge stop at the temple buccees and another 10 minute stop in Alvarado. When I was 15 miles outside of Alvarado it canceled the stop and I made it to my destination with only one 15 minute charge stop.

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I know you see that as a positive. To me it would be a miserable experience for my car to tell me where/when to stop. And two stops from SA to North Texas. That's kinda nuts, isn't it? My vehicles all have a range of around 400 miles, and we use it. And if I stop for 15 minutes, I have had to go #2, which means never. And yes, I've timed my stops, usually 10 minutes or less.

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I will always stop at least once for every two to three hours of driving regardless of vehicle. I like to defer to my vehicle as much as possible when driving. I have a hands on defeat device for my car as well. Basically teslas will make you keep a hand on the wheel and nudge it every now and then when autopilot is engaged. The hands free cheat device lets me kick back, play on my phone, and the car drives the entire route with very little input on my part.

JamesE4 said:

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Teslag said:

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Manhattan said:

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Actually they didn't, if you use trip planning, it is extremely accurate. The only inaccurate thing is the range at the top that is based on the epa "range"

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Mine actually exceeded its estimate last week. Left San Antonio for north Texas and the computer planned a 15 minute charge stop at the temple buccees and another 10 minute stop in Alvarado. When I was 15 miles outside of Alvarado it canceled the stop and I made it to my destination with only one 15 minute charge stop.

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My Y is only a few months old but it tracks each trip and tells you why if your energy use was higher than expected. If I drive like a hyper miler I can use less energy than it expected.

I love the way it drives and never needing to stop for gas, which typically cost me 30 minutes a week, and I hate pumping with the fumes.

Did I mention almost no maintenance required and saving > $100 per month on fuel cost?

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Right on. Love the no maintenance. I also have a diesel Silverado for towing. Next week I have to change the fuel filter, the oil, and replace the brake pads. Just an absolute ass beating.

Just hook your trailer up to your y and head out- problem solved!

Good way to get someone killed just because you want to play on your phone.

nortex97 said:

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"It depends" is a weak answer I know but keep in mind the batteries degrade in the real world around 8 or 10 percent a year.

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Like I've already said…..most have ZERO clue what they are talking about when it comes to EVs. ZERO…..

Philip J Fry said:

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Good way to get someone killed just because you want to play on your phone.

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The Tesla autopilot is a better driver than almost everyone on the road. Now sure, you can find some random YouTube videos of it goofing but I can find far more of your every day idiot on the highway

A computer is a better driver than a human in most instances on reaction time alone. Tesla isn't killing anybody.

RoyVal said:

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nortex97 said:

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"It depends" is a weak answer I know but keep in mind the batteries degrade in the real world around 8 or 10 percent a year.

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Like I've already said…..most have ZERO clue what they are talking about when it comes to EVs. ZERO…..

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My favorite part about EV drivers is the cultish arrogance/condescending attitude toward anyone who doesn't worship their vehicles. Like a combination of cross fitting vegans discussing how in shape they are.

Yes, state interference in the market is absurd:

Just got a Tesla Model 3 in CA for $13,620 before taxes & fees! Thanks to a unique combo of state/local rebates, the federal tax credit and a $4120 discount from inventory, I got this amazing deal!! 😍

Detailed breakdown below👇 #Tesla #Model3 $TSLA pic.twitter.com/sL7cHQxOGc

— Zohar (@Zoron9102) July 20, 2023

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Zohar posted their pricing on the social media site, claiming that they were able to buy a Model 3 for $13,620 after incentives and discounts. The story sounds dubious, but a little digging revealed that it is actually plausible, though discounts vary depending on where in California the buyer lives. Zohar's ride came with a $4,120 discount, a $7,500 clean vehicle rebate, a $4,000 incentive from a local community energy program, a $4,000 Monterey Bay Air District incentive, and a $7,500 federal tax credit.

A quick search on California's DriveClean site reveals that the discounts at least most are real. We found a $37,830 Model 3 RWD for sale on Tesla's site. Using a San Francisco zip code, the CA website offered us a $4,500 California Clean Vehicle Rebate Program, a $5,500 income-dependent additional rebate, and a $7,500 federal tax credit. While the federal tax credit isn't an instant discount, it still applies. That brings our price for a Model 3 to $20,330 not as cheap as Zohar's car, but a reasonable price nonetheless. Interestingly, we could buy a Chevy Bolt for around $9,000 using these same discount programs.

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So maybe 'some' of you overpaid, but wait you will tell us ignorant rubes it is all unicorns and rose gardens, I know!

Just wait until that guy sees the bill the first time he has to change the freon in his battery though

LOL, most of them have no idea the ideal lithium battery operating temperature is 77-104. It's just magic that allows new car batteries to stay at that temperature when it is 100+ degrees while rapidly depleting/charging a battery in Texas.

It's all just so simple. That's also why they never catch on fire.

It's been so hot in Arizona the last month they the cacti are dying and evs are fine.

GAC06 said:

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Just wait until that guy sees the bill the first time he has to change the freon in his battery though

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Or when his battery degrades 10% every year

I was referring more to why it estimated my trips so poorly. I get battery degradation and phantom drain (which you are overestimating) but when I sit in the car and type in an address I'd like the estimated range / usage for that trip to be 90% correct. It rarely was. I'm sure how I drive / speed was part of it but you'd think the AI would get used to your driving habits as well as environmental factors (ambient temperature) to make a better educated guess.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_jo/GUID-7FE78D73-0A17-47C4-B21B-54F641FFAEF4.html#:~:text=Temperature%20Limits,24%20hours%20at%20a%20time.

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For better long-term performance, avoid exposing Model 3 to ambient temperatures above 60 C or below -30 C for more than 24 hours at a time.

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I found I would get far more accurate estimates if I entered the address while moving rather than from a dead stop.

It literally has a screen that tells you why it is off.