I have stated my backed up by stars comments a few pages earlier, and they were never actually addressed by the EV crowd. I expect, that is for a reason.

That being said, if someone wants to buy one and pay the coal, natural gas, or nuclear powered EV to have and use one, OK. They should be taxed the appropriate amount for special disposal for the toxic batteries for the used up batteries being disposed of by the current owner, and the ones currently used, until a subsequent buyer pays those fees as assumption of taking the vehicle.

It is fair.

ICM driven vehicles are almost 100% reclaimable. EVs, not so much.

ICM driven vehicle owners should not have to pay one dime for EV battery disposal, whatsoever. Period.

Buy and EV, and pay the appropriate costs associated with it. Figure that into financial viability, along with the added drag to the current power grid. Tax that too, as that will cause folks to go without AC/heat. when it really counts.

Don't forget an additional cold weather environmental degradation tax because they lose a lot of charge while operating in cold temperatures.

Really doubt whatever analysis you're reading actually accounts for demand timing and was just some back of the napkin math they did that assumed every additional EV was 10 additional kWh of production per day, and that production would have to come from additional power plants. That is not how it works. EVs generally get charged overnight and energy production demands are significantly lower over night than during the day. It will result in a flattening of the demand schedule, but not a dramatic taxing on production.

Quote:

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A 2019 study overseen by the Energy Department concluded that "based on historical [electric generation] growth rates, sufficient energy generation and generation capacity is expected to be available to support a growing EV fleet as it evolves over time."

Moreover, the power system already has excess capacity during certain periods of the day. An analysis by KPMG says the U.S. currently has enough generating capability to charge 80 million EVs during overnight hourshence the need to control when cars are charged. The Edison Electric Institute estimates there could be 26 million EVs on the road by 2030, up from about 3.2 million today.

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80 million vehicles would represent 1/3rd of the total vehicles on the road in the U.S. we won't be anywhere close to that figure by the end of the decade.

Teslas are already equipped with the ability to schedule charging and they offer individuals with their powerwall to subscribe to a service that allows them unlimited overnight charging.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/url-us-power-grid-electric-vehicles-ev-charging-11675444994

UTExan said:

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Don't forget an additional cold weather environmental degradation tax because they lose a lot of charge while operating in cold temperatures.

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OK.

Add that too.

What I am getting at is why should those that prefer ICM motor driven vehicles because they are superior in performance, finance the evolution into EVs?

Did they tax the horse owners hay, and horse poop, and stall maintenance, to propel the ICM car? NO.

That's my point. We are getting artificially mandated/taxed/beaten out of the ICM to not only facilitate an inferior drive system, that relies on an electrical grid that cannot support them for the foreseeable future (and those that do so refuse Nuclear alternative that might) and artificially make the investors in these inferior machines rich and do more harm to the environment as a result.

The reason for all of this is nefarious, at best. It is not hard to figure out. It is all there.

EV battery disposal will be paid for by EV production upon the maturation of the recycling infrastructure. The reclaimed materials are cheaper to acquire than mined materials, which will result in EV prices to fall further below gas vehicles. The materials in EV batteries are 95% reclaimable today, there just aren't nearly enough batteries to recycle and the recycling process is more complicated today than it will be in 20 years, because the vast majority of batteries are from consumer electronics rather than EVs. It's easier to standardize a recycling process for a Tesla battery than it is for a mixture of Dewalt drill batteries, hover board batteries and cell phone batteries. Recycling economics change when the batteries represent half of the total cost of the product. That isn't the case for cell phones, which up until recently represented the largest consumers of lithium batteries. The per unit economics bear out that it's a profitable endeavor today, despite those challenges.

You're not going to see that industry fully fleshed out for 10-15 years because the proportion of vehicles that are ready for recycling relative to the proportion of production will be wildly out of whack. Tesla by the end of February this year had 4 million lifetime vehicle sales, of which a tiny fraction will be headed for the scrapyard by 2030. Their stated goal is 20 million annual vehicles in production by 2030. You might see 1% of that figure in global EV battery recycling. Maybe more, but that'll be mostly from cheap Chinese crap that was sold to Chinese customers. That's their problem.

hph6203 said:

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EV battery disposal will be paid for by EV production upon the maturation of the recycling infrastructure. The reclaimed materials are cheaper to acquire than mined materials, which will result in EV prices to fall further below gas vehicles. The materials in EV batteries are 95% reclaimable today, there just aren't nearly enough batteries to recycle and the recycling process is more complicated today than it will be in 20 years, because the vast majority of batteries are from consumer electronics rather than EVs. It's easier to standardize a recycling process for a Tesla battery than it is for a mixture of Dewalt drill batteries, hover board batteries and cell phone batteries. Recycling economics change when the batteries represent half of the total cost of the product. That isn't the case for cell phones, which up until recently represented the largest consumers of lithium batteries. The per unit economics bear out that it's a profitable endeavor today, despite those challenges.

You're not going to see that industry fully fleshed out for 10-15 years because the proportion of vehicles that are ready for recycling relative to the proportion of production will be wildly out of whack. Tesla by the end of February this year had 4 million lifetime vehicle sales, of which a tiny fraction will be headed for the scrapyard by 2030. Their stated goal is 20 million annual vehicles in production by 2030. You might see 1% of that figure in global EV battery recycling. Maybe more, but that'll be mostly from cheap Chinese crap that was sold to Chinese customers. That's their problem.

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OK.

Why should I be made to pay for it? If the cost is Unicornally (spelled intentionally) paid for, then shoulder it all, every cent, on the EV purchaser/owner, and build it into either the price, or disposal cost of the EV end of life buyer. Not one cent towards the ICM buyer. This cost is not attributable to the ICM buyer whatsoever.

It should be shouldered by the EV "crowd" altogether. Including the development of disposal sights and disposal sight maintenance in perpetuity.

Fair?

Some mechanics' truth about EV costs:

Guy on YouTube spouts a bunch of random statements.

Publicly traded company with financial figures disputes.

Who to believe…

https://thedriven.io/2022/08/05/hertz-says-tesla-fleet-of-rental-evs-are-50-pct-cheaper-to-maintain-than-fossil-fuel-cars/amp/

Quoting things like "you might have to replace your back seats in this car" is an example of manufacturing defects, not a flaw in the technology. There is nothing unique about the seats in an EV compared to gas vehicles. Saying that you might have to replace the screen when every car company is transitioning to using screens, EV or not, is not an example of a flaw with the technology.


Show me where the drivetrain fails. Show me where the battery fails. Show me the oil changes, air filter changes, tire changes, and fuel costs.

What makes you think you're paying for it?

If you're upset about the tax credits, I agree with you. Take it up with the unions, that's what they were implemented for, not electric vehicles. It's why the extension initially included a provision that the majority of the credit would only go to cars manufactured with union labor, but that was too politically unpalatable to pass.

They're in a catch 22, on the one hand their companies will go out of business if they don't get the EV credits because they can't compete with Tesla on cost, on the other hand their union members are going to lose jobs because EVs require less labor to build. Whoops.

hph6203 said:

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Same place it comes from now. Natural gas, solar, wind, hydro, geothermal and (willing) nuclear. Expansion is likely to be localized around natural gas, solar, and wind

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Don't forget coal.

Elon, how's it going?

j/k. Impressed with your knowledge of this.

It's perhaps more than a little ironic the UAW is withholding their (inevitable) endorsement of Biden in 2024 over him not doing enough for them with the EV stuff. Even leftist mouthpieces like Axios note that the politics around labor and EV's is "messy" (meaning it's difficult for Democrats).

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Why should I be made to pay for it? If the cost is Unicornally (spelled intentionally) paid for, then shoulder it all, every cent, on the EV purchaser/owner, and build it into either the price, or disposal cost of the EV end of life buyer. Not one cent towards the ICM buyer. This cost is not attributable to the ICM buyer whatsoever.

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Agreed. No tax credits whatsoever in my opinion. However, if I'm paying a contract rate for electric I should be able to use whatever I want for how much I'm willing to pay. That's how capitalism works.

Teslag said:

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cecil77 said:

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Teslag said:

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For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.

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How to say "not ready for prime time" w/out saying not ready for prime time.

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A good solution for most urban commuters is definitely prime time. Remember, most Americans live in or with commuting distance to cities and take annual road trips of less than 500 miles.

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Doesn't mean it's ready for prime time in the sense that the average American is going to put up with this nonsense.

Philip J Fry said:

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Teslag said:

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cecil77 said:

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Teslag said:

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For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.

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How to say "not ready for prime time" w/out saying not ready for prime time.

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A good solution for most urban commuters is definitely prime time. Remember, most Americans live in or with commuting distance to cities and take annual road trips of less than 500 miles.

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Doesn't mean it's ready for prime time in the sense that the average American is going to put up with this nonsense.

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Why do you assume you know the needs, wants, and desires of the "average" american?

If all that you've written is accurate, there would be not need, at all, for governmental intervention nor emphasis.

And for many (like me) that's the contention. The market will go where the market will go and that's fine. But to the "point of a gun" that is government to accomplish the task is wrong. (period)

And many EV enthusiasts, myself included, agree completely. Tesla didn't need incentives. The big 3 do because it's a gift to unions.

Teslag said:

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And many EV enthusiasts, myself included, agree completely. Tesla didn't need incentives. The big 3 do because it's a gift to unions.

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Tesla rode those (direct federal) subsidies as hard as they could for as long as they could.

Tesla has released all cars for sale where original customer can’t take delivery before year end, as well as test drive / display cars, which cost less.

Reminder to US buyers that $7500 tax credit drops in half in 8 days. Order online at https://t.co/46TXqRrsdr or visit stores.

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) December 22, 2018

But what did Elon Musk know about Tesla needs/incentives in 2021, right? He also didn't know clear back in 2015 that he didn't need the then-$5 billion in subsidies fueling the company.

Teslag said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Teslag said:

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cecil77 said:

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Teslag said:

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For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.

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How to say "not ready for prime time" w/out saying not ready for prime time.

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A good solution for most urban commuters is definitely prime time. Remember, most Americans live in or with commuting distance to cities and take annual road trips of less than 500 miles.

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Doesn't mean it's ready for prime time in the sense that the average American is going to put up with this nonsense.

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Why do you assume you know the needs, wants, and desires of the "average" american?

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You're joking right?

I agree. The only thing that I see as somewhat of a benefit to the EV credits is that it requires that the vehicle be produced in North America (half of the credit), and that battery materials be sourced from the United States or a country the U.S. has a free trade agreement with, the other half of the credit and that no materials can come from China in 2025. Those requirements lead to this:

Increasing lithium refining capacity is critical to a sustainable energy economy—today, we're breaking ground on our in-house lithium refinery outside of Corpus Christi, TX.

This facility will also prioritize the elimination of a challenging refinery byproduct (sodium sulfate).… pic.twitter.com/mBnDBLNrW7

— Tesla (@Tesla) May 8, 2023

Cybertruck looking badass with some accessories at @Tesla’s Texas lithium refinery groundbreaking! @elonmusk pic.twitter.com/9UEcvuQ0QO

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) May 8, 2023

Philip J Fry said:

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Teslag said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Teslag said:

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cecil77 said:

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Teslag said:

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For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.

---

How to say "not ready for prime time" w/out saying not ready for prime time.

---

A good solution for most urban commuters is definitely prime time. Remember, most Americans live in or with commuting distance to cities and take annual road trips of less than 500 miles.

---

Doesn't mean it's ready for prime time in the sense that the average American is going to put up with this nonsense.

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Why do you assume you know the needs, wants, and desires of the "average" american?

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You're joking right?

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Not at all. Most posters on this board are very out of touch in regards to the "average" american, myself included.

They will never solve the electricity problem, and I've pretty much decided that is the whole point. The cost of EVs and electricity will put the cost of personal transportation beyond the reach of most Americans, forcing them to use public transportation. Coastal elites will still be able to travel as they please.

You will drive nothing and be happy riding the bus.

The cost of the best EV's are decreasing, not increasing, unlike their ICE counterparts.

Teslag said:

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The cost of the best EV's are decreasing, not increasing, unlike their ICE counterparts.

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Eh. Tesla decreased some prices. They could go back up.

techno-ag said:

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Teslag said:

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The cost of the best EV's are decreasing, not increasing, unlike their ICE counterparts.

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Eh. Tesla decreased some prices. They could go back up.

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Or they could go even lower. Tesla's are more computer than car. And technology gets cheaper as production increases and develops.

I'm still driving my horse and carriage why do we need EV's

Is that really specific to EVs though? I know no one is serious about electricity because they aren't looking at nuclear. There's a 0% chance of relying on just wind and solar. That leaves fossil fuels or nuclear. If they claim to want to get rid of fossil fuel power plants there's only one option. Unlike EVs, they would also generate tons of jobs.

I'm reminded of the situation in Germany. They had perfectly good nuclear power plants, but the Greens insisted on shutting them all down, due to paranoia over ***ushima. But Germans still insisted on having electricity, so the country compensated for its loss of nuclear power by...importing a bunch of oil and gas from Russia. It put them in a really awkward situation once the Russo-Ukrainian War started.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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I'm reminded of the situation in Germany. They had perfectly good nuclear power plants, but the Greens insisted on shutting them all down, due to paranoia over ***ushima. But Germans still insisted on having electricity, so the country compensated for its loss of nuclear power by...importing a bunch of oil and gas from Russia. It put them in a really awkward situation once the Russo-Ukrainian War started.

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And they laughed at Trump when he said that was a bad idea.

There is no answer. I deal with these kinds of projects daily. Sure a lot of technologies are being looked at but nothing is planned really. You could break ground today and not catch up. Scary AF for me and future of my skillsets . We need to desperately look more at natural gas fired plants and nuclear but it's not the sexy thing right now.

Teslag said:

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The cost of the best EV's are decreasing, not increasing, unlike their ICE counterparts.

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Because the ICE versions have to cover the losses from the vehicles so popular they have to be mandated into existence. Given a level playing field, with no government mandates and impossible MPG standards, we'd still be able to get affordable ICE vehicles for the next couple of generations, or longer.

Teslag said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Teslag said:

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Philip J Fry said:

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Teslag said:

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cecil77 said:

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Teslag said:

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For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.

---

How to say "not ready for prime time" w/out saying not ready for prime time.

---

A good solution for most urban commuters is definitely prime time. Remember, most Americans live in or with commuting distance to cities and take annual road trips of less than 500 miles.

---

Doesn't mean it's ready for prime time in the sense that the average American is going to put up with this nonsense.

---

Why do you assume you know the needs, wants, and desires of the "average" american?

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You're joking right?

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Not at all. Most posters on this board are very out of touch in regards to the "average" american, myself included.

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So you think the average American is going to install solar panels on their house, buy a 50K new car, or change their shipping habits so they can charge their car while the buy groceries or watch a movie?

Seriously?

Why would they need to charge their car while buying groceries or watching a movie?

Unless they're watching a movie at home before bed

I'm going to make a wild assumption and say anyone who lives in an apartment or condo does not have access to a charging station at home.

That's a bad assumption. Charging will be available more and more at apartments