Where have I seen this truck before?…. Wait!

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The study was done by auditing company Deloitte and conducted on 9,500 consumers in nine countries. It shows that just 30 percent of new car buyers in the U.S. are considering an EV for their next car. People still want gas vehicles though, as 63 percent of buyers say they're still going for a gas-powered vehicle as their next purchase. Compare those numbers to Europe, where 48 percent of European buyers are considering an EV for their next car and just 36 percent are considering a gas car.

Compared to both Asia and Europe, American adoption of EVs lags. While transition progress was up in 2022 over 2021, data from Deloitte says that adoption may slow some. And there are a few reasons why.

While the usual suspects of charging infrastructure, vehicle range, and battery performance are on buyers' minds, buyers are starting to consider other long-term reasons before their EV purchase. For instance, 74 percent of buyers said battery recycling plans something many still don't have a plan for was a factor in their EV purchase. Resale value was another issue buyers were worried about, with 61 percent of buyers worried about an EVs long-term value.

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Americans not that into EV's. It's heartening to know that despite the fact half the country or so would consider voting for GCF, the Kenyan One, or LGB, most are resistant to the siren call (errr, command/edict) to look to EV's.

I like AM radio, and want my vehicle both to have it and be safe.

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Some electric vehicle (EV) manufacturers are scrapping the AM radio from their cars, claiming safety concerns. Although conservative talk radio dominates AM radio ratings, it is also considered a critical safety tool, as it is one of the primary ways that federal, state, and local officials communicate with the public during natural disasters and other emergencies.

Automakers such as Ford and Tesla have ditched the AM radio from their newer EV models, arguing that the motors on EVs interfere with AM frequencies, creating buzzing and signal fading, according to a report by the Wall Street Journal.

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nortex97 said:

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I like AM radio, and want my vehicle both to have it and be safe.

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Some electric vehicle (EV) manufacturers are scrapping the AM radio from their cars, claiming safety concerns. Although conservative talk radio dominates AM radio ratings, it is also considered a critical safety tool, as it is one of the primary ways that federal, state, and local officials communicate with the public during natural disasters and other emergencies.

Automakers such as Ford and Tesla have ditched the AM radio from their newer EV models, arguing that the motors on EVs interfere with AM frequencies, creating buzzing and signal fading, according to a report by the Wall Street Journal.

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Tesla dropped both AM and FM. I can't tell you the last time I listened to AM. I may have listened to FM once in the last year.

At the risk of derailing the thread, a lot of the Gen Z folks don't listen to the radio at all. My son is in his early 20s and only uses Apple Car Play in his car to stream music or pod casts. Of course, you can stream the "radio" too but I don't think he does.

However, i think cars should have AM and FM. Cell service can be down and we are already too dependent on cell phones and internet.

I assume you also don't support not including an emergency brake in a car.

There should be a way for the driver to mechanically (no computer involved) stop any car. There should not be a situation where the driver can't control the car because the computer on the car thinks it knows best. Unfortunately, while unlikely, it is possible for a car to be unstoppable by the driver in today's cars if something goes rogue. The key doesn't actually shut off a car. It tells the computer to do it. The brakes are heavily computerized too.

At least with an electric car, it will take advantage of regenerative breaking to slow it down faster than an ICE car.

Kansas Kid said:

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At least with an electric car, it will take advantage of regenerative breaking to slow it down faster than an ICE car.

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Regenerative braking can be used in hybrids or to capture energy to charge the battery/electric turbo's too, fyi.

Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may just have to junk the car.

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For many electric vehicles, there is no way to repair or assess even slightly damaged battery packs after accidents, forcing insurance companies to write off cars with few miles leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.

And now those battery packs are piling up in scrapyards in some countries, a previously unreported and expensive gap in what was supposed to be a "circular economy."

"We're buying electric cars for sustainability reasons," said Matthew Avery, research director at automotive risk intelligence company Thatcham Research. "But an EV isn't very sustainable if you've got to throw the battery away after a minor collision."

Battery packs can cost tens of thousands of dollars and represent up to 50% of an EV's price tag, often making it uneconomical to replace them.

While some automakers such as Ford and General Motors said they have made battery packs easier to repair, Tesla has taken the opposite tack with its Texas-built Model Y, whose new structural battery pack has been described by experts as having "zero repairability."

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Unless Tesla and other carmakers produce more easily repairable battery packs and provide third-party access to battery cell data, already-high insurance premiums will keep rising as EV sales grow and more low-mileage cars get scrapped after collisions, insurers and industry experts said.

"The number of cases is going to increase, so the handling of batteries is a crucial point," said Christoph Lauterwasser, managing director of the Allianz Center for Technology, a research institute owned by Allianz.

Lauterwasser noted EV battery production emits far more CO2 than fossil-fuel models, meaning EVs must be driven for thousands of miles before they offset those extra emissions.

"If you throw away the vehicle at an early stage, you've lost pretty much all advantage in terms of CO2 emissions," he said.

Most carmakers said their battery packs are repairable, though few seem willing to share access to battery data. Insurers, leasingcompanies and car repair shops are already fighting with carmakers in the EU over access to lucrative connected-car data.

Lauterwasser said access to EV battery data is part of that fight. Allianz has seen scratched battery packs where the cells inside are likely undamaged, but without diagnostic data it has to write off those vehicles.

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aggiehawg said:

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The reason why is The Hubs has a hard time keeping the lake house golf cart charged, all of his tools charged.

We have multiple 200 amps drops on the ranch. But keeping that many things charged even on a trickle cell does not work forever. They die.

Until battery tech makes a HUGE advancement, EVs are futile.

Now, tell me why I am wrong.

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Hawg - you maybe right. At the rate they are inflating vehicle prices, by the time they outlaw ice vehicles and you can only buy an electric one you won't be able to afford it.

Latest thing I am seeing is Tesla's in minor fender benders that have to be totaled because the battery pack was damaged

You will own nothing and you will like it. Also you will be confined to your district

Battery retention after 200,000 miles for a Tesla is around 90% of its initial capacity. The way you treat a battery matters a lot in its longevity and golf cart manufacturers (if the golf cart they own even uses a lithium battery rather than the more traditional lead acid battery) aren't investing a ton of money into a battery management system, because those golf carts are not designed to drive 300 miles at a clip. Same thing with your phone, same with your power drill. Is it better to create a $500 drill that's heavy, because of additional systems designed to maintain battery temperature, or is it better to just expect the consumer to periodically replace a $70-120 battery? It's why they tell you not to store your power tool batteries in the garage because freezing or sweltering temperatures reduce the battery life. An EV maintains battery temperature even when not in use.

They are just not good comparisons.

I will add that inflationary pressures are way stronger on ICE vehicles than EV vehicles. Since 2012 ICE vehicles have risen in price by 54%, and the price of a Tesla Model S (the only model they offered then and now) is $500 cheaper. It also has more than 50% more range, goes 0-60 faster and charges faster.

hph6203 said:

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Battery retention after 200,000 miles for a Tesla is around 90% of its initial capacity. The way you treat a battery matters a lot in its longevity and golf cart manufacturers (if the golf cart they own even uses a lithium battery rather than the more traditional lead acid battery) aren't investing a ton of money into a battery management system, because those golf carts are not designed to drive 300 miles at a clip. Same thing with your phone, same with your power drill. Is it better to create a $500 drill that's heavy, because of additional systems designed to maintain battery temperature, or is it better to just expect the consumer to periodically replace a $70-120 battery? It's why they tell you not to store your power tool batteries in the garage because freezing or sweltering temperatures reduce the battery life. An EV maintains battery temperature even when not in use.

They are just not good comparisons.

I will add that inflationary pressures are way stronger on ICE vehicles than EV vehicles. Since 2012 ICE vehicles have risen in price by 54%, and the price of a Tesla Model S (the only model they offered then and now) is $500 cheaper. It also has more than 50% more range, goes 0-60 faster and charges faster.

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Elon Musk is here!

Just kidding. Good info.

Trust us! This lithium battery is just different. Ignore all your experience and the insurance costs.

pic.twitter.com/JL9zc3zq5t

— Ted Nugent (@TedNugent) March 16, 2023

Modern day slavery in Congo by China for electric batteries.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara#:~:text=On%20how%20China%20came%20to,anyone%20knew%20what%20was%20happening.

You can trust your experiences with different products that aren't the same thing or the real-world data collected from 100's of thousands of vehicles and explanations from experts on battery technology and longevity. There are Teslas on the road with 400,000+ miles on a single battery. You stick your power drill battery in a garage, it varies temperature from the low 40s to the 100s dependent upon the area you live, which is going to crush battery longevity. The same goes for a golf cart with minimal battery management systems. They are not the same. An EV sitting idle in a garage will periodically cycle coolant through the battery to maintain ideal temperatures, your power drill battery just sits there and gets cooked. You go spend a day using a power drill and then throw it on the charger while it's still hot and it will hit a high temperature warning, but will begin charging long before it's at the ideal temperature, EVs contrarily constantly maintain their battery temperatures and in a circumstance where they're going to be utilizing fast charging they pre-condition the batter to, again, ensure longevity.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1002007118307536

The Model 3 RWD doesn't have a cobalt battery afaik.

hph6203 said:

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You can trust your experiences with different products that aren't the same thing or the real-world data collected from 100's of thousands of vehicles and explanations from experts on battery technology and longevity. There are Teslas on the road with 400,000+ miles on a single battery. You stick your power drill battery in a garage, it varies temperature from the low 40s to the 100s dependent upon the area you live, which is going to crush battery longevity. The same goes for a golf cart with minimal battery management systems. They are not the same. An EV sitting idle in a garage will periodically cycle coolant through the battery to maintain ideal temperatures, your power drill battery just sits there and gets cooked. You go spend a day using a power drill and then throw it on the charger while it's still hot and it will hit a high temperature warning, but will begin charging long before it's at the ideal temperature, EVs contrarily constantly maintain their battery temperatures and in a circumstance where they're going to be utilizing fast charging they pre-condition the batter to, again, ensure longevity.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1002007118307536

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None of that begins to rebut the 'scratched battery even' can lead to a salvage claim. See the posts above, or any real insurance costs for tesla's, including with the newest battery chemistries (cobalt isn't what was causing the issues).

Yes, you can get insurance now from Tesla themselves, to try to save money. But they charge more if you drive it…after the sun is down. Most of us have at some point driven a vehicle over something in the road, heard a bump, and hope it's ok. With EV's (whose batteries oh by the way are at the bottom of the vehicles outside of pretty car wash/wax sight), that's…maybe a show stopper. Or not, whatever.

But who cares about risks like that, or slavery in the Congo/strip mining/water usage/carbon footprint for refining all that stuff in China?

nortex97 said:

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hph6203 said:

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You can trust your experiences with different products that aren't the same thing or the real-world data collected from 100's of thousands of vehicles and explanations from experts on battery technology and longevity. There are Teslas on the road with 400,000+ miles on a single battery. You stick your power drill battery in a garage, it varies temperature from the low 40s to the 100s dependent upon the area you live, which is going to crush battery longevity. The same goes for a golf cart with minimal battery management systems. They are not the same. An EV sitting idle in a garage will periodically cycle coolant through the battery to maintain ideal temperatures, your power drill battery just sits there and gets cooked. You go spend a day using a power drill and then throw it on the charger while it's still hot and it will hit a high temperature warning, but will begin charging long before it's at the ideal temperature, EVs contrarily constantly maintain their battery temperatures and in a circumstance where they're going to be utilizing fast charging they pre-condition the batter to, again, ensure longevity.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1002007118307536

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None of that begins to rebut the 'scratched battery even' can lead to a salvage claim. See the posts above, or any real insurance costs for tesla's, including with the newest battery chemistries (cobalt isn't what was causing the issues).

Yes, you can get insurance now from Tesla themselves, to try to save money. But they charge more if you drive it…after the sun is down. Most of us have at some point driven a vehicle over something in the road, heard a bump, and hope it's ok. With EV's (whose batteries oh by the way are at the bottom of the vehicles outside of pretty car wash/wax sight), that's…maybe a show stopper. Or not, whatever.

But who cares about risks like that, or slavery in the Congo/strip mining/water usage/carbon footprint for refining all that stuff in China?

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The refineries use cobalt to make the gasoline and diesel so the only answer is to walk (don't mention how our shoes are made)

Don't recall saying anything about your post about insurance. I was responding to a person who responded to a post about battery longevity in power tools and golf carts. Then you basically implied that I was stupid for stating there's a difference between the products.

As for your claims about minor damages to the battery necessitating salvage of the vehicle, the article you posted quoted an insurance representative that stated they didn't believe that salvage was necessary, but rather they did salvage it because they didn't have the diagnostics to determine whether or not it was. That is not a technology problem, it's an infrastructure problem. The rest of the article basically says that battery recycling needs to be ramped up and that low mileage cars are salvaged from time to time, nothing about salvage rates, which if they were in fact high would have almost certainly been outlined in the article.

hph6203 said:

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Don't recall saying anything about your post about insurance. I was responding to a person who responded to a post about battery longevity in power tools and golf carts. Then you basically implied that I was stupid for stating there's a difference between the products.

As for your claims about minor damages to the battery necessitating salvage of the vehicle, the article you posted quoted an insurance representative that stated they didn't believe that salvage was necessary, but rather they did salvage it because they didn't have the diagnostics to determine whether or not it was. That is not a technology problem, it's an infrastructure problem. The rest of the article basically says that battery recycling needs to be ramped up and that low mileage cars are salvaged from time to time, nothing about salvage rates, which if they were in fact high would have almost certainly been outlined in the article.

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Umm, no.

There's a reason or 10 Tesla et al. Are not giving data on that stuff to insurers. Hint: it's not due to infrastructure. You were close to a point though. Keep digging.

Sure. "The researcher disagrees with me, but the headline writer wrote it the way I want to portray it so you're wrong."

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Lauterwasser said access to EV battery data is part of that fight. Allianz has seen scratched battery packs where the cells inside are likely undamaged, but without diagnostic data it has to write off those vehicles.

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hph6203 said:

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Sure. "The researcher disagrees with me, but the headline writer wrote it the way I want to portray it so you're wrong."

The article also never said it was a Tesla.

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Lauterwasser said access to EV battery data is part of that fight. Allianz has seen scratched battery packs where the cells inside are likely undamaged, but without diagnostic data it has to write off those vehicles.

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I'm at the end of my attention span tonight but you might want to pay a little more attention if you think Tesla is…cooperating with insurers/owners about repairs.

Says nothing about cooperation with insurers. The lawsuit is about Tesla monopolizing repairs, not some cloak and dagger effort to obfuscate the fragility of their battery packs. Their argument is that repairs on EVs are dangerous and that the systems in an EV are more tightly integrated so in order to ensure the repair is done right they want to do it themselves, no different than Apple and their products.

You're searching for articles to support your assumed assertions and then extrapolating from anything that is even vaguely related. That's how you came to the conclusion that 60% of energy was lost over transmission lines from renewable sources and that we'd have 15% mortgage rates by this summer. You called me stupid when I said you were wrong about those items and you're wrong about the impact of scratched battery packs in this instance as well.

Work on your humility and reduce the number of topics you're willing to speak authoritatively on.

hph6203 said:

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Says nothing about cooperation with insurers. The lawsuit is about Tesla monopolizing repairs, not some cloak and dagger effort to obfuscate the fragility of their battery packs. Their argument is that repairs on EVs are dangerous and that the systems in an EV are more tightly integrated so in order to ensure the repair is done right they want to do it themselves, no different than Apple and their products.

You're searching for articles to support your assumed assertions and then extrapolating from anything that is even vaguely related. That's how you came to the conclusion that 60% of energy was lost over transmission lines from renewable sources and that we'd have 15% mortgage rates by this summer. You called me stupid when I said you were wrong about those items and you're wrong about the impact of scratched battery packs in this instance as well.

Work on your humility and reduce the number of topics you're willing to speak authoritatively on.

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Mortgage rates? WTF are you even talking about? You mad? I called you stupid?

Transmission line losses, yes, are a concern, as is 'last mile' infrastructure costs if we're going to make this collective shift toward EV's. There are a LOT of articles about battery damage leading to junked EV's.

LOL. I'll keep posting on this thread, thanks for the life advice. I guess mocking something you hold as a matter of religious faith offended you or something. Whatever, it's the internet, get over yourself.

Tesla even had to launch their own insurance program trying to lower the cost to drivers/customers, but they even charge more for drivers who…drive when the sun isn't up. They know damn good and well their repair costs are sky high, and yes that's related to how it's designed and a lot of it is the battery (it's built around the battery after all.)

The cost of insurance isn't much different than similar cars. We noticed very little cost difference to insure our BMW M series than we did our Y Performance. Expensive fast cars aren't cheap to insure and it's always been that way.

That sounds like an anecdote. Elon Musk has said he's worried about Tesla insurance rates, right? Have you told him it's no big deal?

My 2020 Y was cheaper to insure than 2018 F150, very similar purchase price, F150 MSRP 20% higher.

I have a 2023 iX M60 EV Suv and it only costs me 860.00 a year with full coverage and a 500.00 collision deductible.
I'm 64 and keep a clean record.

A lot of Tesla drivers apparently lack critical reasoning skills are defensive when it comes to analysis of insurance costs, or are unaware that EV's cost more to insure, which is unsurprising.

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"The Mini Cooper Electric is one of the cheapest EVs to insure, while Teslas are some of the most expensive," the report states. "The Porsche Taycan is one of the most expensive cars to insure, as it's both a sports car and an EV."

Citing CCC Intelligent Solutions' finding in 2022 that the average small non-luxary EV model costs $4,041 to fix about 27% more than the average for roughly comparable non-EV models Sangameswhar concluded that EVs have lower maintenance costs but cost more if they're damaged in a car crash or by bad weather. Among mid-size luxury SUVs, the difference was even more pronounced: $8,037 versus $5,242 for internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, according to CCC.

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Again, why is it surprising that high performance luxury segment cars are expensive to insure?

Teslag said:

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Again, why is it surprising that high performance luxury segment cars are expensive to insure?

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Teslag said:

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Again, why is it surprising that high performance luxury segment cars are expensive to insure?

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It's not. It's the uncertainty of battery damage that makes them, for now, even more expensive to insure. It's an add-on parameter to the luxury, performance and price of the vehicle.

Teslag said:

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Again, why is it surprising that high performance luxury segment cars are expensive to insure?

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Again, reading comprehension. Unsurprising.

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Among mid-size luxury SUVs, the difference was even more pronounced: $8,037 versus $5,242 for internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles

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I appreciate the humor though.