So your data point for battery life is a prospective buyer survey? One in which their concern for battery life (OP said 5 to 7 years) would be covered free under an 8 year warranty?

Think about that for a second. If a Tesla battery gave out in 5 to 7 years, it would be replaced under warranty free and then good for another 5 to 7 years. So it would then cost the buyer nothing for 10 to 14 years of service.

Is that the argument you want to go with?

Is Tesla the only EV manufacturer?

And auto warranty claims are always a smooth and easy experience, especially the more expensive it gets.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Is Tesla the only EV manufacturer?

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Federal law requires all EV's to have a minimum 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. California requires 10 year 150,000 warranties.

Teslag said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Is Tesla the only EV manufacturer?

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Federal law requires all EV's to have a minimum 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. California requires 10 year 150,000 warranties.

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More than likely it only covers parts, and the labor is up to the consumer.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Is Tesla the only EV manufacturer?

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I guess it is to him. The issues in Norway would seem to imply it is not a perfect outfit to depend on for remedying perhaps warranty issues down the road, but I don't really care.

It is just one company, you are right. EV's seem to have a higher cost to insure, period. I'd guess the accident and repair costs are higher, as the reason.

I didn't know that and that is probably a good protection for a lot of people. However, the average car in this country is over 12 years old so would be out of warranty for the battery. I'm sure the average vehicle age for low income people is higher than that and they are the ones who can least afford a $20k battery.

Nothing against Teslas or EVs though. They are cool toys for people that can afford them and if so was into cars I'd probably own one. They just aren't practical for most people, particularly for mid to low income people in a state like California that requires a lot of long distance commuting / driving.

LostInLA07 said:

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I didn't know that and that is probably a good protection for a lot of people. However, the average car in this country is over 12 years old so would be out of warranty for the battery. I'm sure the average vehicle age for low income people is higher than that and they are the ones who can least afford a $20k battery.

Nothing against Teslas or EVs though. They are cool toys for people that can afford them and if so was into cars I'd probably own one. They just aren't practical for most people, particularly in a state like California that requires a lot of long distance commuting / driving.

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It's not a "protection ". Warranty costs are paid by the consumer at the time of purchase.

LostInLA07 said:

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I didn't know that and that is probably a good protection for a lot of people. However, the average car in this country is over 12 years old so would be out of warranty for the battery. I'm sure the average vehicle age for low income people is higher than that and they are the ones who can least afford a $20k battery.

Nothing against Teslas or EVs though. They are cool toys for people that can afford them and if so was into cars I'd probably own one. They just aren't practical for most people, particularly for mid to low income people in a state like California that requires a lot of long distance commuting / driving.

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And a scary outlook as to the prospective reliability/cost of the electric grid over the coming years.

They will continue to outsource their dirty power to other states and Indian reservations.

I would absolutely agree that EV's are not practical for most people as of today. There are many posters on this topic however that claim they aren't practical for anyone.

Meanwhile European energy prices are approaching $1 per Kwh right now too.

Good point but at least the cost is known up front.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Teslag said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Is Tesla the only EV manufacturer?

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Federal law requires all EV's to have a minimum 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. California requires 10 year 150,000 warranties.

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More than likely it only covers parts, and the labor is up to the consumer.

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The major manufacturers also include labor (I believe federal law forbids parts only manufacturer warranties in any vehicle, not just EV's). In Tesla's case, they will even cover battery fires resulting from driver error.

nortex97 said:

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techno-ag said:

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nortex97 said:

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The LG 90kw battery in the Jag probably wasn't the problem, imho, but rather the JLR-designed charging/battery management system. that's my guess.

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Maybe. But a manufacturing glitch in LG batteries was traced as the cause for all those Chevy Bolt fires.

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I agree, and it's just speculation, but LG is a global leader in mass production of these batteries, specifically large LI batteries for EV's. I think they are well past that stage in their product design/safety; they are right behind the Chinese in market share. Much more so than some of the bit players with great PR departments, they are a top competitor/producer globally (yes, even producing/selling to/for Tesla):

Quote:

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The world's second largest EV battery maker after Chinese CATL raised 12.8 trillion KRW ($10.8 billion), which valued the company at $59 billion, last week in South Korea's largest IPO.

LG Energy has approximately 23% of the global EV battery market, with customers including Tesla, General Motors and Volkswagen, according to a sector analyst. In comparison, China's CATL topped with about 35% market share. The analyst also noted that Japan's Panasonic and Chinese BYD account for roughly 13% and 7% share, respectively.

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Also, maybe I am showing my age a bit, but when I read about an electronic bit being 'designed by Jaguar/Land Rover' I am thrown into an old man lucas electronics skeptical mindset automatically. That, and my inner engineer mindset says 'batteries aren't inherently dangerous, it's how they are managed that can create great hazards.' Then I picture someone setting down a combo wrench on top of an 'old style' car battery.

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Prince of Darkness ....

Teslag said:

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notex said:

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A car salesman's dream.

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Tesla has no salesmen. You configure the one you want. Pay your deposit with Apple Pay on your phone. When the car is shipped you transfer funds to Tesla via their phone app. When you arrive for pickup you hold your phone next to the car, your phone app turns into the "key" and you drive off. No salesman. No sales manager. No finance guy. Clean. Simple. Easy.

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Considering the quality problems, you absolutely should not just drive off the lot. And I really don't think that's 100% how it works from friends experiences picking up their Tesla's.

Yes, their quality problems seem to be ongoing.

agracer said:

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Teslag said:

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notex said:

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A car salesman's dream.

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Tesla has no salesmen. You configure the one you want. Pay your deposit with Apple Pay on your phone. When the car is shipped you transfer funds to Tesla via their phone app. When you arrive for pickup you hold your phone next to the car, your phone app turns into the "key" and you drive off. No salesman. No sales manager. No finance guy. Clean. Simple. Easy.

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Considering the quality problems, you absolutely should not just drive off the lot. And I really don't think that's 100% how it works from friends experiences picking up their Tesla's.

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Considering I picked one up just recently I assure you that's exactly how it works.

My analysis of EVs vs ICEs concludes the following:

1. EVs are ok for those who drive locally and depending upon your location electric energy cost may be a push.
2. Long term cost of EVs really has not been finalized but my analysis concludes that the disposal cost is costly and may be born by the user and the taxpayer for it will be subsidized.
3. Current EVs are heavily subsidized by all of us so there is no free lunch
4. Power density of fluid energy(gasoline) is higher than stored power therefore more efficient when all dynamic cost are included.
5. Some long term O&M cost of 4 wheeler EVs are less thus providing a true cost saving
6. EVs are limited to four wheel small transposition and not practical for farm, ranch, long haul, rail engines, heavy lift, etc. applications. I.e they are not good as a 5th wheel or pulling your boat, etc.
7. EVs will have a role in the long term but it has a very specific space.
8. ICEs are just more flexible for most applications
9. EVs are ok but the rationalization of it saving the planet is a pipe dream. Only nuclear power will do that. Fossil fuels will always be needed.

EV's contribute 20% more tire pollution vs. ICE vehicles;

Quote:

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The device can pull up to 60 percent of tire emissions in the lab, but only about 20 percent in real-world conditions. The startup is currently testing prototypes on a couple of delivery vans in London to increase the rate of particle collection.

Now that EVs are hitting the market, the Tyre Collective thinks it's the best time to perfect their design. Due to their bigger size, higher weight and greater torque, EVs produce 20 percent more tire emissions than comparable ICE-powered cars. A gas-burning car sheds 73 milligrams per kilometer from all four tires; a comparable EV sheds en estimated 88 milligrams per kilometer. Damn you, metric system!

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This also supports the assertion they will need new tires more often/more materials needed over time in tires for EV's.

Teslag said:

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agracer said:

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Teslag said:

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notex said:

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A car salesman's dream.

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Tesla has no salesmen. You configure the one you want. Pay your deposit with Apple Pay on your phone. When the car is shipped you transfer funds to Tesla via their phone app. When you arrive for pickup you hold your phone next to the car, your phone app turns into the "key" and you drive off. No salesman. No sales manager. No finance guy. Clean. Simple. Easy.

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Considering the quality problems, you absolutely should not just drive off the lot. And I really don't think that's 100% how it works from friends experiences picking up their Tesla's.

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Considering I picked one up just recently I assure you that's exactly how it works.

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ok, take your word for it but again, considering the quality issues it seems you should at least document everything that is wrong before you drive off the lot.

Good points.

The most powerful I'll get is a weedeater, probably.

nortex97 said:

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EV's contribute 20% more tire pollution vs. ICE vehicles;

Quote:

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The device can pull up to 60 percent of tire emissions in the lab, but only about 20 percent in real-world conditions. The startup is currently testing prototypes on a couple of delivery vans in London to increase the rate of particle collection.

Now that EVs are hitting the market, the Tyre Collective thinks it's the best time to perfect their design. Due to their bigger size, higher weight and greater torque, EVs produce 20 percent more tire emissions than comparable ICE-powered cars. A gas-burning car sheds 73 milligrams per kilometer from all four tires; a comparable EV sheds en estimated 88 milligrams per kilometer. Damn you, metric system!

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This also supports the assertion they will need new tires more often/more materials needed over time in tires for EV's.

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We care about tire emissions now? Now do pickup trucks and SUV's

Those are fine. They are driven slower/more carefully.

Pretty funny analyses of plug in hybrid insanity in Germany. TLDW: government incentives for Plug in hybrids lead to many more of them, but no one actually ever plugs them in. Bonus; the guy in this video is talking about a pretty cool VW wagon.

Houstonag said:

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My analysis of EVs vs ICEs concludes the following:

1. EVs are ok for those who drive locally and depending upon your location electric energy cost may be a push.
2. Long term cost of EVs really has not been finalized but my analysis concludes that the disposal cost is costly and may be born by the user and the taxpayer for it will be subsidized.
3. Current EVs are heavily subsidized by all of us so there is no free lunch
4. Power density of fluid energy(gasoline) is higher than stored power therefore more efficient when all dynamic cost are included.
5. Some long term O&M cost of 4 wheeler EVs are less thus providing a true cost saving
6. EVs are limited to four wheel small transposition and not practical for farm, ranch, long haul, rail engines, heavy lift, etc. applications. I.e they are not good as a 5th wheel or pulling your boat, etc.
7. EVs will have a role in the long term but it has a very specific space.
8. ICEs are just more flexible for most applications
9. EVs are ok but the rationalization of it saving the planet is a pipe dream. Only nuclear power will do that. Fossil fuels will always be needed.

---

SIAP posted but the average price of an EV is $20K higher than an ICE. And 70% of EVs do not qualify for a subsidy that doesn't offset that price differential anyway. They are inarguably more expensive right now and once you implement the new vehicle mileage usage fee (fuel tax analog for EVs) then the ROI for EV over ICE doesn't exist.

It's purely a political movement and personal choice when it comes to driving an EV. It's a terrible development from a consumer standpoint.

May have been covered already but in Zeihan's last book he had the carbon emissions to create a EV vs combustion so that the an EV had to drive 55,000 miles before it had any savings over a computation car burning gas the first 55k.

Junk metric but it's what the logistics and statistics denying crowd goes with and it shows that EV is nothing but a gimmick by their own metrics.

I'm saving about $300 in gas per month on my commute. I also have no maintenance costs. When comparing the Y Performance to other vehicles in its class with similar tech and performance the out the door prices are about the same. The operating costs are not.

Stressboy said:

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May have been covered already but in Zeihan's last book he had the carbon emissions to create a EV vs combustion so that the an EV had to drive 55,000 miles before it had any savings over a computation car burning gas the first 55k.

Junk metric but it's what the logistics and statistics denying crowd goes with and it shows that EV is nothing but a gimmick by their own metrics.

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Carbon is not a pollutant..the comparison doesn't matter.

Teslag said:

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I'm saving about $300 in gas per month on my commute. I also have no maintenance costs. When comparing the Y Performance to other vehicles in its class with similar tech and performance the out the door prices are about the same. The operating costs are not.

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For now which is what I posted. Your $300 advantage goes away with vehicle mileage usage fee.

Having said that, I fully expect the government to not end the fuel tax when the VMUF is implemented to continue to force consumers to switch. IOW, ICE will pay both while EV doesn't because government will force a winner.

It is pretty disingenuous to say you have "no maintenance costs". It is a man made mechanical product, there WILL be mechanical costs. You just haven't had any yet.

YouBet said:

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Teslag said:

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I'm saving about $300 in gas per month on my commute. I also have no maintenance costs. When comparing the Y Performance to other vehicles in its class with similar tech and performance the out the door prices are about the same. The operating costs are not.

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For now which is what I posted. Your $300 advantage goes away with vehicle mileage usage fee.

Having said that, I fully expect the government to not end the fuel tax when the VMUF is implemented to continue to force consumers to switch. IOW, ICE will pay both while EV doesn't because government will force a winner.

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The usage fee won't be anywhere near $3600 a year. Lol.

cslifer said:

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It is pretty disingenuous to say you have "no maintenance costs". It is a man made mechanical product, there WILL be mechanical costs. You just haven't had any yet.

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The only maintenance items for Teslas are wiper fluids, tires, cabin air filter every two years, ac dessicant every 6 years, and brake pads at 100k miles.

Teslag said:

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YouBet said:

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Teslag said:

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I'm saving about $300 in gas per month on my commute. I also have no maintenance costs. When comparing the Y Performance to other vehicles in its class with similar tech and performance the out the door prices are about the same. The operating costs are not.

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For now which is what I posted. Your $300 advantage goes away with vehicle mileage usage fee.

Having said that, I fully expect the government to not end the fuel tax when the VMUF is implemented to continue to force consumers to switch. IOW, ICE will pay both while EV doesn't because government will force a winner.

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The usage fee won't be anywhere near $3600 a year. Lol.

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Irrelevant. Point is that all cars pay the same fee whatever it is. Your current road fee advantage is moot with that fee assuming the government doesn't punish ICE cars by forcing them to pay both fee and gas tax.