slaughtr said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Then your post doesn't make sense. Why the backhanded insult that conservatives don't actually care about the working class?

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Because I'm an extreme conservative. And I don't give a hoot about poor people that can only afford a $4,000 car. They made their own mess, they can live with it. Nowhere else on TexAgs do you see all this lamenting about poor people. Don't be absurd.

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Some people are too stupid to make enough money to buy a vehicle that costs more than $4,000 due to no fault of their own. They are just born, live, and die dumb. No matter how hard they try they are going to be dumber than the average person. Not having concern for that person doesn't make you conservative.

hph6203 said:

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Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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slaughtr said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Me, no. But people do drive cheap cars. You do realize not everyone makes $80k plus a year don't you?

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And?

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EV's are a "luxury" savings only if you don't account for the higher upfront capital costs. So it is just a rich people $ savings because you would otherwise be buying some supped up turbo charged sports car. Not really applicable to most Americans.

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A new Tesla Sedan is $39k. Thats $10k less than the average new vehicle price.

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The average vehicle is not a sedan. That is not an appropriate comparison.

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Yeah, at least be honest when making an argument. According to this site the average price of a midsized sedan is $31,760.

https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/auto/average-price-of-a-new-car

BonfireNerd04 said:

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slaughtr said:

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I guarantee you I'm as conservative (or more) than you. Just because I drive an EV doesn't make me a liberal.

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Seriously, I hate this attitude that so many of our fellow conservatives have.

Sometimes, the guy driving a Tesla just thinks it looks good and meets his personal driving needs.

Sometimes, the guy riding a bicycle just wants to get some exercise.

It doesn't automatically make them oil-industry-hating envirofascist left-wingers.

Quit assuming that people are bad just because they like something that's not a MAGA cultural stereotype.

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Unless all those guys are wearing masks.

To be clear I think in 4-5 years they'll be at price equivalency for a comparable/in reality inferior vehicle, but it's not there yet. That average price is non-luxury sedans, which I think Tesla probably would be at the high end of non-luxury/low end of luxury.

I'd just like to see the Model 3 fall in price to where it's within spitting distance of a V6 Camry. I think that's achievable between the move to 48v low voltage, improved battery energy density (production starting on batteries that will be roughly equivalent per kWh pricing, but 10% more energy dense right now), move to 800v for improved efficiency and charging rates (Kia EV6 uses 800v and can charge to 80% in 18 minutes, new battery from CATL claims 80% in 10 minutes, production start this quarter).

If all that happens along with the addition of bi-directional charging I don't think there's a great argument for not moving to an EV platform.


ETA: Those are all cost based savings, if the response from the consumer is to pay a premium for the improved specs the price may not match ICE, but the underlying costs would be comparable and manufacturers would just take better margins.

Camry V6 starts at $36k base. I think the 3 is aleady there.

Model 3 range is not long enough yet. 350 miles min on standard range for it to be a reasonable replacement. It's a cheaper vehicle long term, but I'm talking about when the majority of people go "damn I'm dumb for not going electric." Allows for battery degradation and reduced range on recharge on trips making 200 miles per charge possible.

350 gets you 10% degradation to still above 300 range, 250 range at 80% which gives you 200 miles and 50 mile cushion for every recharge along the highway. 3 hours of driving with a 15 minute break. If that's too long for someone they need to invest in medication rather than a longer range vehicle, it'd be cheaper.

It's getting close, just not quite there yet. Which is why some proportion of people are adamant it's already there. I just think it has to be even more convincing for mass adoption.

Model 3+ gets it to low 300's, shift to M3P battery likely gets it to 350 (if they adopt it), but will come with price increases. Shift to 800v and 48v architecture will offset battery sizing increases and improve charging rates and you're there in 4-5 years.



To be clear, I'd get the Model 3 right now, but I can understand the people that are still skeptical and those metrics basically destroy most arguments against electric.

Teslag said:

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Camry V6 starts at $36k base. I think the 3 is aleady there.

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Why are you spreading easily fact checked lies about the price? The First Edmund result shows 2024 Camry MSRP range is 24-36k, and the 2023 Model 3 is 40-56k!

Yeah, the model 3 is no where close to Camry price. The 36k Camry will be the top trim spec which will have great sound and leather and V6, be very close to an entry basic Lexus at that point just minus suspension and some interior touches. Just maybe if you drive a lot the 40k Tesla is cheaper to own than the 36k Camry.

If you want EVs to take off they need to be cheaper. If you flipped the prices EVs would see way more adoption. It's not the performance specs holding EV back, it's the scalability of manufacturing and inability to lower costs at scale because of raw material price.

I don't get the EV love when compared to many PHEV that seem to have it all. They are in-between ICE and full EV. Some models are only 2-3k extra over their ICE counterpart, which shows they can be economically scaled, but better performance, and cost of gas over ownership life can easily make up for the price difference.

Quote:

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Why are you spreading easily fact checked lies about the price? The First Edmund result shows 2024 Camry MSRP range is 24-36k, and the 2023 Model 3 is 40-56k!

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Perhaps you missed where I clearly said "Camry V6". Maybe read next time before accusing someone of lying. The Model 3 with tax credit is $31k. $38k without and has more performance and features than the $36k V6 Camry.

bmks270 said:

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I don't get the EV love when compared to many PHEV that seem to have it all. They are in-between ICE and full EV. Some models are only 2-3k extra over their ICE counterpart, which shows they can be economically scaled, but better performance, and cost of gas over ownership life can easily make up for the price difference.

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No one likes a spork.

Because that's the category that Tesla is aiming at with the performance metrics of the Model 3 RWD. The V6 Camry is somewhat comparable to a Model 3. Tuned down to improve efficiency they can be even cheaper, but that's not a market that EVs are targeting in this country yet.

They are headed that way in China where price is far more important than the U.S. and they're headed for sub $30,000 for a 260 mile range vehicle (currently $32,000 USD in Australia), but it drives like a 4 cylinder. That lower price is driven by lower performance/smaller battery and smaller margins that are more in line with the margins that a 4 cylinder Camry gets.


Vehicles with comparable performance and price are coming in the next 5 years, which is why the PHEV idea isn't going to survive. EVs are reducing in price too quickly and PHEVs are hamstrung by requiring two different power sources. They require most of the components of gas and most of the components of EVs and benefit less from the battery cost efficiency gains from EV production.

bmks270 said:

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I don't get the EV love when compared to many PHEV that seem to have it all. They are in-between ICE and full EV. Some models are only 2-3k extra over their ICE counterpart, which shows they can be economically scaled, but better performance, and cost of gas over ownership life can easily make up for the price difference.

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Because 1) I don't need to lug around an ICE engine I will never use and 2) I don't know of any hybrids with 500hp and 600 lb/ft of torque that's as fast as my full EV. All of the gas hybrids are purely to increase mileage, which is not why I bought my car.

Still don't understand why the diesel locomotive model not developed.

Small highly efficient ICE that runs at one rpm tuned for peak efficiency. Not connected to the wheels. Drives the generator for the batteries and electric motor.

I think Mazda is bringing back the rotary for just such an application. Best of both worlds.

cecil77 said:

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Still don't understand why the diesel locomotive model not developed.

Small highly efficient ICE that runs at one rpm tuned for peak efficiency. Not connected to the wheels. Drives the generator for the batteries and electric motor.

I think Mazda is bringing back the rotary for just such an application. Best of both worlds.

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Those trains are also used in a very predictable long range applications, generally. They replaced exceptionally high maintenance (steam) engines, where the overhaul etc. costs were logarithmically higher (and diesel ICE engines are/were vastly more efficient/cleaner than the predecessors). The generators/batteries used did not (and do not) require exceptionally complicated cooling/thermal management systems (or any), as in BEV consumer vehicles, when in use or at rest.

I think Mazda is actually walking away from that commitment (but not real sure). Rotary ICE engines are 'cool' in theory with greater efficiency but generally in practice lead to durability problems as Mazda RX owners can attest.

Much of the hype around wet electrolyte battery technology reminds me of the silliness around Newsom driving that hybrid BYD $160K SUV in china for the cameras with a nifty '5th wheel' to help park it/spin it around. Basically just clever marketing around very old technology that is in general inferior and politically problematic:

With this practical and elegant solution, everything seemed settled at last. However, no one called Brooks Walter with the idea of using his patent on any of the big Detroit brands. So what he continued to rehearse with a third patent in 1957, an Oldsmobile truck, a Ford and even… pic.twitter.com/UfsfC2LIHp

— Gengar 👽 (@Gengar25106320) October 29, 2023

Pricing and numbers can be manipulated to fit your narrative.

The Majority of Americans qualify for the IRA credit. So its not a reach to say that you can take 7500 off a tesla for most Americans.

The Ava Midsized SUV across all classes are about 40K and I can safely say that the avg Midsized SUV does not compare to a Model Y but lets assume the consumer is price sensitive above all. I just bought a Model Y long range for 50K which is 6K more than the current RWD model. So out he door my car was 43K.

In 1 year, I am essentially cost neutral with 2K in Gas savings and a few oil changes.

This math works just as well for a 32K avg midsized sedan vs a Model 3 Long range 39K after IRA. So 2-3 years cost equivalency.

I am a technical, math guy and no way you cut it, Tesla is more economical in 2-3 years. Now, if you are talking about the low end SUV/sedan that is running in the 20K's, then year, math doesn't work as well.

I can tell you that my old Model Y that was 3 yrs old and 70K miles purchased for 60K back then was way more economical than if I bought another X5

bmks270 said:

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I don't get the EV love when compared to many PHEV that seem to have it all. They are in-between ICE and full EV. Some models are only 2-3k extra over their ICE counterpart, which shows they can be economically scaled, but better performance, and cost of gas over ownership life can easily make up for the price difference.

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This is my personal Take, a Hybrid is the worse of both worlds. They bring problems from both worlds without being great at anything for the typical in town commuter.

You still have to change brakes, oil, ICE engine maintenance, But then you have to change out the battery around 150K miles at around 5K costs.

What the Anti EV crowd does't realize is having an EV is a lifestyle choice. I don't really care much about green, liberal policies, etc. I am conservative and all it matters is pricing and needs which an EV fits perfectly for my daily 100 mile a day drives. In 3 year of owning a Model Y, I supercharged 3 times and prob spent 1 hour at the chargers which is wayyyyyyy less time than with a similar 70K miles ICE vehicle.

I enjoy the low maintenance, time saving, money saving, quiet ride. That is is.

The Battery replacement issue s OVER RATED. People are driving older Teslas over 300K before replacing a battery and I have never driven an ICE vehicle more than 120K miles without having regular/big repair bills.

I save about 3K/yr on gas/typical ICE maintenance a year on my typical 20K miles/yr not to mention the hours at gas stations/mechanic shops.

It just makes not sense having an ICE on my typical 100 miles of daily drive. I really can not think of one positive that an ICE has for my needs. NONE.

If we're discussing suitability for replacing ICE as the dominant vehicle in the market, then including the tax credit is a non-starter. We can't subsidize a technology to that extent forever and there has to be a pathway to sustainable demand absent incentives.

I try to only bring up the tax credit as an explanation for why some vehicles sell and some vehicles sit on dealer lots. Most of the vehicles stacking inventory are vehicles that, after accounting for credits, are more expensive than a better alternative.

IRA credits will not last forever and I wish they get rid of it tomorrow.

But we are talking about current pricing and costs today, and the IRA credits are very relevant.

No one knows what is going to happen tomorrow and the IRA credits may last another 5 years or they may even increase it to try and save the Big 3.

If we are talking about long term pricing, EVs will be cost equivalent regardless of credits in 5 years. I am sure of this.

ICE keeps costing more to make and EV pricing keeps coming down. Why? Because EVs are just simpler cars requiring less parts and time to make. Battery pricing keeps going down and will continue to go down. ICE labor keeps going up.

Current Benchmark Lithium Battery Cell price is $98/kw. It has to go down to $80/kw to bring down battery packs to $100/kw which is considered parity to ICE engines.

It is going to happen and maybe even happen by next year.

Medaggie said:

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Pricing and numbers can be manipulated to fit your narrative.

The Majority of Americans qualify for the IRA credit. So its not a reach to say that you can take 7500 off a tesla for most Americans.

The Ava Midsized SUV across all classes are about 40K and I can safely say that the avg Midsized SUV does not compare to a Model Y but lets assume the consumer is price sensitive above all. I just bought a Model Y long range for 50K which is 6K more than the current RWD model. So out he door my car was 43K.

In 1 year, I am essentially cost neutral with 2K in Gas savings and a few oil changes.

This math works just as well for a 32K avg midsized sedan vs a Model 3 Long range 39K after IRA. So 2-3 years cost equivalency.

I am a technical, math guy and no way you cut it, Tesla is more economical in 2-3 years. Now, if you are talking about the low end SUV/sedan that is running in the 20K's, then year, math doesn't work as well.

I can tell you that my old Model Y that was 3 yrs old and 70K miles purchased for 60K back then was way more economical than if I bought another X5

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You're comparing your Tesla to a BMW.

We're talking about wider adoption.

EVs won't see any wider adoption than current equally priced luxury vehicles see because of price.

IRA credits are relevant to individual purchasing decisions, but you're not having a discussion with people considering purchasing an EV.

This is a discussion with people that are adamant that there shouldn't be credits and they're not concerned about the suitability/costs of buying a vehicle today they're concerned about what the market looks like after a decade and the stated goal of the end of gas by 2035, at which point the IRA credits are scheduled to end.

No argument that includes credits is going to be convincing or relevant for them to understand why EVs are going to supplant ICE. There needs to be a roadmap as to how the costs are going to come down/the vehicle is going to improve at the same time. So much so that the price has to reduce within the price points of all ICE vehicles, not only the mid/high end price points.

They mentally exist in a market where automobiles means more expensive as time goes on, but we're experiencing a compute like reduction in costs for EVs. It's how the price of a comparable Model S has fallen by 17% (not inflation adjusted), increased range by 33%, and removed a second from the 0-60 time in the last 10 years. There is a very clear path to cost reduction on a honorary basis that gets prices within the range of equivalent ICE vehicles.

I agree. Current buyers in the sub 30K range will not get a Tesla. If Tesla ever comes out with their Model 2, they may get it under 30K and this will be the mass adoption vehicle especially when people are saving 2K+/yr in gas/maintenance

Tesla had a plan originally to sell High End cars to get Cash flow/profit which they achieved with the Model S. They then made the Model 3 to address the higher end sedan market which was a hit. They then went into the most lucrative American SUV market which essentially was 75% Model 3. This was Genius IMO.

Now the Model Y is the best selling car in the world of any sector and Model 3 is top 10 in the world.

If the Cybertruck can duplicate this, they will be a Top 3 selling truck in the world.

A Sub 30K Model 2 would undoubtedly be a top 10 model in the world if not #1.

Having 3 top 10 cars by volume in the world is an amazing feet.

To answer a previous comment, Mazda is still planning to use a rotary engine for a hybrid sport car. They revealed a concept at the Japan Mobility Show. Do not know if it is intended to be a RX-9 or the next MX-5.



https://newsroom.mazda.com/en/publicity/release/2023/202310/231025a.html

slaughtr said:

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2) I don't know of any hybrids with 500hp and 600 lb/ft of torque that's as fast as my full EV. All of the gas hybrids are purely to increase mileage, which is not why I bought my car.

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What's your price range?

bmks270 said:

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Medaggie said:

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Pricing and numbers can be manipulated to fit your narrative.

The Majority of Americans qualify for the IRA credit. So its not a reach to say that you can take 7500 off a tesla for most Americans.

The Ava Midsized SUV across all classes are about 40K and I can safely say that the avg Midsized SUV does not compare to a Model Y but lets assume the consumer is price sensitive above all. I just bought a Model Y long range for 50K which is 6K more than the current RWD model. So out he door my car was 43K.

In 1 year, I am essentially cost neutral with 2K in Gas savings and a few oil changes.

This math works just as well for a 32K avg midsized sedan vs a Model 3 Long range 39K after IRA. So 2-3 years cost equivalency.

I am a technical, math guy and no way you cut it, Tesla is more economical in 2-3 years. Now, if you are talking about the low end SUV/sedan that is running in the 20K's, then year, math doesn't work as well.

I can tell you that my old Model Y that was 3 yrs old and 70K miles purchased for 60K back then was way more economical than if I bought another X5

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You're comparing your Tesla to a BMW.

We're talking about wider adoption.

EVs won't see any wider adoption than current equally priced luxury vehicles see because of price.

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The equivalent of a $38k RWD Tesla 3 isn't a luxury car. It's a Toyota Camry V6.

tk for tu juan said:

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To answer a previous comment, Mazda is still planning to use a rotary engine for a hybrid sport car. They revealed a concept at the Japan Mobility Show. Do not know if it is intended to be a RX-9 or the next MX-5.



https://newsroom.mazda.com/en/publicity/release/2023/202310/231025a.html

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I think they abandoned that this summer.

https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2023/07/31/mazda-mx30-rotary-phev-rev-cancelled/

The Iconic SP concept was revealed last week, the rotary hybrid is still in their plans.

Well ok, thx. Hope it's true but they also promised some diesels for years for our market. I'm skeptical, of those being sold here ever (both).

The Skyactiv-D is way too efficient for the US govt to ever allow it to be sold here. Can't place a gas guzzler tax on it

https://www.autoweek.com/news/future-cars/a40528441/mazda-cx-60-diesel-engine/

tk for tu juan said:

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slaughtr said:

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2) I don't know of any hybrids with 500hp and 600 lb/ft of torque that's as fast as my full EV. All of the gas hybrids are purely to increase mileage, which is not why I bought my car.

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What's your price range?

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Good point. Plus a few of the new Ferraris and Porsche Spyder. Hybrids I could go for.

How is the model y considered an SUV? Definitely doesn't look like one from the outside. Station wagon maybe.

I'll get a hybrid but never full electric. A hybrid will get me to work and back on electric no problem and I won't have to spend as much on gas every week. But I like having the option for gas on road trips or longer trips.

TXAG 05 said:

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How is the model y considered an SUV? Definitely doesn't look like one from the outside. Station wagon maybe.

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The Treasury Dept revised the classification system back in February which helped make both seating versions of the Model Y a SUV. Before that just the 7 seat version was a SUV, and the 5 seater was a car/wagon/hatchback

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1245

7 seats? Guess I haven't seen that one. Haven't seen a Tesla that you could put 7 humans in

There are 7-seat configurations for the Model Y and X. Not the most popular option but they are available. I've never sat in the third row of the Model Y, but it does not look comfortable (like the back seat of a VW Bug)

The Chinese BEV's are coming, quite literally, and it's all about the power/politics; owning the battery supply chain is just the entry point to their play.

Quote:

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If you want to buy an electric vehicle in the United States, the cheapest option costs more than twice as much as the least expensive internal combustion vehicle on the market. If you want to buy a new EV in China, the most affordable option costs nine percent less than the cheapest internal combustion vehicle available to you.

This is a sign of the price gap that keeps growing wider in the automotive industry. While the EVs being sold by legacy automakers in the U.S., Europe, and elsewhere still cost more than their internal combustion counterparts, in China, anyone can afford an EV.

In the first half of 2023, the average EV cost 66,864 ($70,462 USD at current exchange rates) in Europe and 68,023 ($71,683 USD) in the U.S., according to data from JATO Dynamics. By contrast, the average EV cost less than half as much in China, ringing in at just 31,165 ($32,842 USD).

While American consumers can choose from 51 all-electric models and Europeans are offered 135, Chinese buyers can pick from 235 EVs. That means that, while there are premium vehicles on offer, there are also cheaper models available. And that may be intentional.

With an eye on international markets, China's automakers are producing low-priced EVs to earn their relatively novel brands a foothold in a variety of markets. That makes the average Chinese EV cheaper than its competitors around the world, not just in China.
[url=][/url]

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More at the link. No thank you.