cecil77 said:

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The most remarkable thing about this 135 page thread is that anyone cares what anyone else drives.

My only concern is I don't want to be force to drive something, and I don't want to pay for someone else to drive something.

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Kansas Kid said:

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The fast charging system outside the Tesla Supercharging network sucks. It is unreliable and not well planned out. There is a reason adapters have been made and soon many of the cars made by other manufacturers will switch to the Tesla connector. The Tesla system is reliable and has been spaced on the interstate and major highway system to avoid major gaps in where to charge. Most of them are also in good, safe locations unlike a number of gas stations I have had to visit on long distance trips.

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Fords can now use Tesla superchargers. So the ford charging issue article is now outdated in relevancy.

F-150 gained access to the Tesla charging network two weeks ago so the lack of availability of chargers issue is dead for that truck. The problem is again that these auto companies are taking their first big swing and falling short on good design. The F-150 has a 131 kWh pack and is limited to 150 kW charging, meaning even at its peak charging rate a person is going to sit around for ~45 minutes to charge their car.


Compare that to Tesla's Cybertruck where they advertise that a 10-80% charging time is 18 minutes at the peak charge rate of 350 kW. It's also unclear if that's the absolute limit or if it's just the current limit based upon available chargers.


Legacy auto is behind in developing EVs and it appears that's going to be a durable reality. They aim at where the lead companies are and the lead companies aim higher.

Hackers demonstrate how to steal a Tesla with a Flipper and a cellphone.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/cybersecurity-youtubers-found-a-huge-flaw-with-a-convenient-feature-in-tesla-cars

techno-ag said:

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Hackers demonstrate how to steal a Tesla with a Flipper and a cellphone.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/cybersecurity-youtubers-found-a-huge-flaw-with-a-convenient-feature-in-tesla-cars

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Social engineering hacks are virtually impossible to stop. That said, after the car is reported as stolen, it will be bricked so it is at most worth parts.

I love the one offs to point out why Tesla Sucks. I don't get why some of you guys have so much hate for something that it takes up space in your brain.

I don't like Panda Express, actually you could not pay me to eat there. But its not like I chime in and pointing out every antedoctal reason why the food sucks.

I actually agree with most things said about EVs and Tesla.
1. Range anxiety does exist
2. Repairs are more expensive
3. Batteries may very well die at 200k miles
4. Gov incentives should not exsist
5. Home charging not avail to many
6. Price above what most can afford

But
The positives for me greatly outweigh all of these issues, and by a LONG shot. Some may think the above are deal breakers but to me they are minor annoyances and much more minor than ICE.

Panda Express sucks. So does Taco Bell.

But I don't think about it daily or go on a chat forum telling everyone why they suck or post links on the food poisoning they caused.

Just weird this thread has lasted so long that could have been condensed in about 2 pages.

I think you just did all of those things. Well except the links.

Brownlee savages a Fisker Ocean:



I know we don't have a lot of Fisker fans here but this really just made me laugh, worth sharing.

Does the bell toll for EV mania?

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Electric vehicles have been all the rage among politicians at least since President Barack Obama's first term in office, but they've never really caught on among the unwashed masses, who actually want their cars to deliver them to their destinations in comfort in a timely fashion, toting everything and everyone they might want to take along, without blowing up while parked and burning down their residences in the process.

In truth, EVs had been tried and rejected long before that, largely because of the same problems they still have: low range and high cost. The first electric vehicle, a locomotive, was tested in 1837, nearly 60 years before the first vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE) entered service. Electric locomotives couldn't even compete with steam engines fueled by coal. The first rechargeable batteries were created in 1859, and EVs still couldn't compete.

Electric cars predated the first gasoline- and diesel-powered private vehicles, all without government support, subsidies, or tax credits, by the way, and they couldn't compete. They still can't compete. Yet now, in a vain quest to manage the climate, the government is putting its thumb on the scale to mandate and incentivize them with various types of support and regulations.

I have noted before that EVs are in general much more expensive than their roughly comparable ICE counterparts. As such, research shows that most EVs are sold to people in the top two income brackets, making the tax credits and other government support no more than welfare for the well-to-do and politically connected crony-capitalists.

Even with all that support, the chickens are coming home to roost. The stock price of Tesla, the top-selling EV maker, is in freefall, and the company's declining dividends reflect that. EV rival Rivian is laying off workers as its stock has fallen dramatically on losses topping $1.5 billion. Another early EV entrant, Fisker, has already gone through one bankruptcy and may be lurching towards its second, its value having fallen to the penny stock level.

As EV inventories mount on dealers' lots, Ford and GM, each of which announced billions of dollars in losses on its EVs, have reduced production lines and cut sales and production outlooks. After spending billions of dollars on various EV efforts, Apple, Inc. cancelled all its EV projects. If one of the most profitable, well-funded corporations in the world can't make an effective EV and have it go mainstream, who can?

Energy analyst and Heartland Institute policy advisor Ronald Stein and my colleague Chris Talgo have both recently detailed the myriad problems facing EVs. Talgo points out that the two top issues limiting EVs' appeal are those already known nearly 200 years ago: "range anxiety" and costs. I have written previously, at Liberty and Ecology, about the range problem EVs present to most normal drivers, pointing out that charging them would make various day trips I commonly take into two-day trips, at a minimum, and would cut the vacation part of week-long driving excursions in half or more.

Stein points out that used EVs are almost impossible to sell, and Hertz is cutting its EV fleet dramatically, purchasing new ICE cars to replace them.

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All that lacked was a series of quotes by our "leaders' about how EV's are going to take over the market from internal combustion engines and won't it be glorious when then we have a green economy.

Read this book: The Innovator's Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail

-~10% of houses had electricity the first time EVs were produced. Saying they are over 100 years old is idiotic. There's infrastructure requirements and even in an environment where electricity was ubiquitous the product then has to overcome already invested money and inertia of the alternative. It requires EVs to not only be a better product, but a significantly better one to supplant the existing technology. That took a better battery and then it takes that battery to get cheap enough to create a cost comparative product. We are there now.

-The EV tax credit has income limits of 150,000/300,000, the top two income brackets are 243,000/487,000 single/married. They are not getting tax benefits for buying EVs and 8% of the market is EV, so it's definitely not true that most get sold to the top two income brackets. I think your moron confused quartiles and brackets.

-Tesla has never issued a dividend, so their dividends can't fall.

-Tesla's market cap is still 35% higher than Toyota's while making ~16% as many cars. It's almost like the market still thinks EVs will replace a significant proportion of gas vehicles.

-It is true that EV inventory has risen. It is also true that the total days of inventory over the last several months grew from the low 30's to more than 80 days. It is not an exclusively Eav problem, people have slowed down their car purchasing.

-Range anxiety is not the top reason for people not buying EVs. It's price. They don't have to consider the viability of a product they cannot currently afford.

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-Range anxiety is not the top reason for people not buying EVs. It's price. They don't have to consider the viability of a product they cannot currently afford.

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Don't completely agree. For the market segment that can afford EVs, I would bey that range anxiety is the most common issue.

hph6203 said:

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Legacy auto is behind in developing EVs and it appears that's going to be a durable reality. They aim at where the lead companies are and the lead companies aim higher.

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This is why, if I were in the hunt for an EV, it would be a Tesla. Not very good looking, though not butt ugly like the Mach-E, but Tesla has worked through a lot of design flaws/bugs. Legacy EVs look great a lot of the time, but aren't up to snuff where it counts...reliability and tech design.

It was stated many pages back that Tesla can handle the entirety of the EV market right now. If you want and EV, buy a Tesla.

BigRobSA said:

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hph6203 said:

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Legacy auto is behind in developing EVs and it appears that's going to be a durable reality. They aim at where the lead companies are and the lead companies aim higher.

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This is why, if I were in the hunt for an EV, it would be a Tesla. Not very good looking, though not butt ugly like the Mach-E, but Tesla has worked through a lot of design flaws/bugs. Legacy EVs look great a lot of the time, but aren't up to snuff where it counts...reliability and tech design.

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This is true. And to be really viable much more than one manufacturer would have to be producing commodity/mainline volume products.

We've had fans exclaiming the legacy manufacturers failing, but really it's just one producing a plausible competitor now.

The discussion around legacy auto making bad products was primarily about charging experience and profitability. The consumer doesn't care about the profitability of the vehicle, but they do care about charging. That issue has been somewhat resolved by the adoption of the NACS connector, but they still have issues with route planning. Those issues get further mitigated the larger the charging network gets and it appears that Tesla is approaching self funding growth of their network independent of their car business.


You don't need a lot of strong competitors for a market to exist or a technology to take hold. Windows was 80% of the market in the 90's. iPhone makes up ~61% of the domestic phone market, Samsung has ~23%, leaving ~16% for all other manufacturers none of which eclipse 4% share. I don't think that's where the U.S. car market is headed, but I do think Tesla will ultimately dominate (30-40%) and that several of the current brands will either fail or be consolidated.

The problem these companies are facing is a business problem, not product problem. They have a population of shareholders who invest in the company not for growth, but for predictable dividend distributions. Their business has been declining in volume for nearly a decade and the only thing keeping them viable is increasing prices. That has a limit. So they have rising legacy prices and a new product line they are not profitable in so they cling to a dying business while trying to figure out how to produce a viable EV without the ability to sell them, because the market leader boxes them out on pricing. That is a trend that is not unlikely to continue, which is why analyzing the EV market by the performance of legacy manufacturers is a stupid way of determining its viability.


To determine EV viability you should be looking at battery technology and price and asking yourself "is this getting cheaper?" and "Is the performance improving?" The answer to both of those questions is yes.

cecil77 said:

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-Range anxiety is not the top reason for people not buying EVs. It's price. They don't have to consider the viability of a product they cannot currently afford.

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Don't completely agree. For the market segment that can afford EVs, I would bey that range anxiety is the most common issue.

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"If you ignore the top reason it's not the top reason."

I wont say I would never buy an EV. If it makes sense, I will buy one. Range over 400 miles, full charge less than 5 min, charge stations available like gas stations and electricity cost reasonable so equal to or better cost per mile to ICE vehicle.

I bet majority of anti Tesla crowd shares a similar sentiment except those who are annoyed by Teslag who won't ever buy one just to spite him.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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I wont say I would never buy an EV. If it makes sense, I will buy one. Range over 400 miles, full charge less than 5 min, charge stations available like gas stations and electricity cost reasonable so equal to or better cost per mile to ICE vehicle.

I bet majority of anti Tesla crowd shares a similar sentiment except those who are annoyed by Teslag who won't ever buy one just to spite him.

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I don't give a poster here such power over my decision making but your rationale is logical.

Yet, it neglects the political, environmental, and human impacts of EV's, at least if more broadly adopted (greater than 20 or so percent). Every single BEV sold is a win for the CCP, and has horrible environmental/human impacts. Finally, there are the safety risks associated with the tremendous cooling/heating systems in the battery's thermal management system. All those tiny glycol lines/resistors pose a risk to fail at some point, and then create a tremendous thermal runaway/safety risk.

It's not all just charging speed/range/durability of the battery, being my point. Way back when (maybe a year ago) we had a great discussion here on the reasons electricity is a terrible way to store energy for a car. The basic engineering/physics aren't going to change, imho.

People bought Japanese vehicles in the 70's. I don't think you're going to convince people China being a beneficiary of EV manufacturing should prevent them from buying one is going to be a winning argument, even if it has some merit. The question is whether EVs are going to make up at least some, if not the majority, of the market and if that is the case then you determine the best path to mitigate Chinese influence rather than ducking your head in the sand and thinking you can ignore that impending reality.

There are people today who own EVs and say they never intend on buying a gas vehicle ever again. Meaning that at least some proportion of people intend on buying EVs long term. That proportion is still growing and the likelihood of buying an EV is higher when people know someone who owns one, because the misconceptions get destroyed by familiarity.

The proportion of people that have interest in owning an EV skews younger and never owning one skews higher. Meaning that as time goes on the "never EV" age out of the primary demographic for car buyers and the "prefer EV" ages in.

You're also dealing with a product that is not sitting still in its competency meaning that people like AggieDruggist will become incrementally more likely to buy the vehicle, because the improvement comes not only from battery technology, but charging availability and the reality is that it likely won't take 400 miles of range and 5 minute charging, but rather specifications that make driving one on the road roughly equivalent to the convenience of a gas car which is more like 15 minutes and 350 miles, because the average person spends more time during a pit stop than the 5 minutes it takes to fill up. The average stop at a Bucc-ee's is 20 minutes.

That technology is going to occur in the next major iteration of EVs with 800v batteries and higher energy density batteries, with cost reductions coming from LFP batteries becoming a viable technology for the ~330 mile range representing a 30% reduction in battery pack costs or about $2500 off the price of the vehicle. At least for crossovers like the Model Y.

Bucees at avg of 20 mins doesn't mean much.

Most gas stations don't require a hike from the pump, inside, wading through crowds, to the bathroom, and back. They also aren't a cultural icon like Bucees

I fill up all of the time and never go inside. Bucees? Not so much.

That's why I said 15 minutes rather than 20. These are highway stops after 3-4 hours of driving. Take a piss, grab some food, get back to your car. You might wait 2-3 minutes for the car to finish charging if it takes 15 minutes. Businesses will start to be built around that model (and already are), similar to Bucc-ee's. Bucc-ee's is unique in terms of its "we have to stop" quality, but it's not unique in its offerings/time spent there.

cecil77 said:

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-Range anxiety is not the top reason for people not buying EVs. It's price. They don't have to consider the viability of a product they cannot currently afford.

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Don't completely agree. For the market segment that can afford EVs, I would bey that range anxiety is the most common issue.

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Range anxiety shouldn't really be an issue. I have a Ford Lightning and I've not driven out of town yet but with the addition of the Tesla network of chargers, getting places shouldn't be a problem. I am calibrating to the fact that it will obviously take longer to get places. I've not even considered towing my boat to lakes within a 50 mile radius because of range. But with the Tesla's network I should be good.
I've not yet used a commercial charging facility. Looking forward to getting the adapter to charge at Buc'ees.

The biggest barrier to towing your boat is going to be the lack of pull through stations.

hph6203 said:

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The biggest barrier to towing your boat is going to be the lack of pull through stations.

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Will drop the boat in the parking lot and charge the truck. No problem.

JayM said:

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cecil77 said:

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Quote:

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-Range anxiety is not the top reason for people not buying EVs. It's price. They don't have to consider the viability of a product they cannot currently afford.

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Don't completely agree. For the market segment that can afford EVs, I would bey that range anxiety is the most common issue.

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Range anxiety shouldn't really be an issue. I have a Ford Lightning and I've not driven out of town yet but with the addition of the Tesla network of chargers, getting places shouldn't be a problem. I am calibrating to the fact that it will obviously take longer to get places. I've not even considered towing my boat to lakes within a 50 mile radius because of range. But with the Tesla's network I should be good.
I've not yet used a commercial charging facility. Looking forward to getting the adapter to charge at Buc'ees.

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With everybody adopting the Tesla charging network now, expect longer waits. When Teslas were the only ones charging there you could get in and out easily. Now everyone and their dog uses those chargers.

techno-ag said:

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JayM said:

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cecil77 said:

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Quote:

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-Range anxiety is not the top reason for people not buying EVs. It's price. They don't have to consider the viability of a product they cannot currently afford.

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Don't completely agree. For the market segment that can afford EVs, I would bey that range anxiety is the most common issue.

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Range anxiety shouldn't really be an issue. I have a Ford Lightning and I've not driven out of town yet but with the addition of the Tesla network of chargers, getting places shouldn't be a problem. I am calibrating to the fact that it will obviously take longer to get places. I've not even considered towing my boat to lakes within a 50 mile radius because of range. But with the Tesla's network I should be good.
I've not yet used a commercial charging facility. Looking forward to getting the adapter to charge at Buc'ees.

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With everybody adopting the Tesla charging network now, expect longer waits. When Teslas were the only ones charging there you could get in and out easily. Now everyone and their dog uses those chargers.

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I'll steel myself for this unfortunate truth.

JayM said:

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hph6203 said:

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The biggest barrier to towing your boat is going to be the lack of pull through stations.

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Will drop the boat in the parking lot and charge the truck. No problem.

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Another inconvenience/hassle I hadn't thought of.

Most of the other manufacturers haven't sold enough vehicles for it to be a noticeable shift in use based upon current fleet sizes. Tesla is around double the rest of the fleet that actually have DC fast charging capability.

This is a long term play that permits them to marginally and eventually significantly increase use of their chargers and funds their expansion efforts. It's already self funding its own expansion. It'll happen even faster/cheaper as they partner with other companies to install chargers.

nortex97 said:

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JayM said:

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hph6203 said:

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The biggest barrier to towing your boat is going to be the lack of pull through stations.

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Will drop the boat in the parking lot and charge the truck. No problem.

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Another inconvenience/hassle I hadn't thought of.

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If one has to do it to get home, they just have to do it.

The cybertruck is the gift that keeps on giving.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/tesla-cybertruck-fail-accident-malfunction-meme-1234982615/amp/

JayM said:

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hph6203 said:

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The biggest barrier to towing your boat is going to be the lack of pull through stations.

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Will drop the boat in the parking lot and charge the truck. No problem.

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This sounds like a huge ass beating.

It does, but if he's willing to put up with it then more power to him. At 50 miles, depending on spec of his truck and size of his boat he might not even need to charge.