Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

---

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

The last one was an Exxon screw up and I am not sure who to blame on the second one but it wasn't the Deep Water Horizon. There is a second platform adjacent to the one on fire.

Needless to say, you can find dozens of examples. I work in the oil industry so I am not anti oil but I also am realistic enough to know that the industry has had its share of environmental and safety catastrophes. Anyone saying mining for EV minerals is a disaster needs to really understand the size and number of issues the oil industry has had.

cecil77 said:

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If all was market driven, we wouldn't be discussing any of this, and no one would care. People would buy what they want, when they want, for as many different reasons as there are buyers.

Governmental involvement (which includes union regulations and support) is the only discussion point, and the discussion is that it shouldn't exist.

---

This.

THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!

Did I mention This?

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

---

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

The last one was an Exxon screw up and I am not sure who to blame on the second one but it wasn't the Deep Water Horizon. There is a second platform adjacent to the one on fire.

Needless to say, you can find dozens of examples. I work in the oil industry so I am not anti oil but I also am realistic enough to know that the industry has had its share of environmental and safety catastrophes. Anyone saying mining for EV minerals is a disaster needs to really understand the size and number of issues the oil industry has had.

---

Of course there have been **** ups in the O&G business. I don't disagree. I was just being a smart ass.

But, some of the stuff the EV mineral mining companies are doing would make 1800s coal miners say NOPE.

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

---

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

The last one was an Exxon screw up and I am not sure who to blame on the second one but it wasn't the Deep Water Horizon. There is a second platform adjacent to the one on fire.

Needless to say, you can find dozens of examples. I work in the oil industry so I am not anti oil but I also am realistic enough to know that the industry has had its share of environmental and safety catastrophes. Anyone saying mining for EV minerals is a disaster needs to really understand the size and number of issues the oil industry has had.

---

Of course there have been **** ups in the O&G business. I don't disagree. I was just being a smart ass.

But, some of the stuff the EV mineral mining companies are doing would make 1800s coal miners say NOPE.

---

Assuming you are referring to child labor in cobalt mining. Assuming so, the coal miners would say what's the big deal.
https://energyhistory.yale.edu/child-labor-pennsylvania-coal-mines-gallery/

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

---

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

The last one was an Exxon screw up and I am not sure who to blame on the second one but it wasn't the Deep Water Horizon. There is a second platform adjacent to the one on fire.

Needless to say, you can find dozens of examples. I work in the oil industry so I am not anti oil but I also am realistic enough to know that the industry has had its share of environmental and safety catastrophes. Anyone saying mining for EV minerals is a disaster needs to really understand the size and number of issues the oil industry has had.

---

Of course there have been **** ups in the O&G business. I don't disagree. I was just being a smart ass.

But, some of the stuff the EV mineral mining companies are doing would make 1800s coal miners say NOPE.

---

Assuming you are referring to child labor in cobalt mining. Assuming so, the coal miners would say what's the big deal.
https://energyhistory.yale.edu/child-labor-pennsylvania-coal-mines-gallery/

---

Oh...sorry...it's on par with 1800s coal mining...complete with the kids.

Much better.

Big WaPo story on how dangerous self driving is.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2024/tesla-full-self-driving-fatal-crash/

blaming the death on the software when the driver is .26 blood alcohol is not a convincing argument.

cecil77 said:

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blaming the death on the software when the driver is .26 blood alcohol is not a convincing argument.

---

Yeah, I would definitely say the auto drive is way safer than a driver with that level of alcohol but it wouldn't be national click bait if you report a drunk driver because that happens all the time. If you want ad dollars, go for the sensational story they will get Nortex and techno all excited to click on it.

Don't let it rain on your cyber truck. It'll rust.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-cybertruck-owners-starting-rust-rain-orange-specks-elon-musk-2024-2?amp

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35726969/2021-ford-f-150-pickups-rust-reported/

Quote:

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Some new 2021 F-150 owners are taking to the internet to complain that their brand-new trucks were shipped from the factory with heavily rusted parts, including the exhaust, differential, and wheel hubs.

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Yeah but the Cybertruck is stainless steel. And this is 2024.

techno-ag said:

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Yeah but the Cybertruck is stainless steel. And this is 2024.

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Yep and your N=2 is completely valid

Teslag said:

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techno-ag said:

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Yeah but the Cybertruck is stainless steel. And this is 2024.

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Yep and your N=2 is completely valid

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It just adds to a long list of woes. This whole force errybody into EVs isn't working out the way Dems thought it would.

I know, I know you don't feel people should be forced into EVs personally. But many on the left do.

techno-ag said:

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Yeah but the Cybertruck is stainless steel. And this is 2024.

---

And stainless steel is known to rust under certain conditions.

"Even with these impressive features, stainless steel can and does rust after all, it's 'stainless' not 'stainfree'. Some types of stainless steel are more prone to corrosion than others, depending on the chromium content. The higher the chromium content, the less likely the metal will rust."
https://www.thyssenkrupp-materials.co.uk/does-stainless-steel-rust

The fact that they didn't add a clear coat is a big mistake.

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

---

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

The last one was an Exxon screw up and I am not sure who to blame on the second one but it wasn't the Deep Water Horizon. There is a second platform adjacent to the one on fire.

Needless to say, you can find dozens of examples. I work in the oil industry so I am not anti oil but I also am realistic enough to know that the industry has had its share of environmental and safety catastrophes. Anyone saying mining for EV minerals is a disaster needs to really understand the size and number of issues the oil industry has had.

---

Of course there have been **** ups in the O&G business. I don't disagree. I was just being a smart ass.

But, some of the stuff the EV mineral mining companies are doing would make 1800s coal miners say NOPE.

---

Have we discussed this? Pretty cool to use geothermal plants to generate electricity, then extract the lithium before pumping it back underground.

I guess the "there's not enough lithium" talking point can be retired. Live look at the symptoms of the shortage:

https://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=li&u=kg&d=240

GAC06 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

---

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

The last one was an Exxon screw up and I am not sure who to blame on the second one but it wasn't the Deep Water Horizon. There is a second platform adjacent to the one on fire.

Needless to say, you can find dozens of examples. I work in the oil industry so I am not anti oil but I also am realistic enough to know that the industry has had its share of environmental and safety catastrophes. Anyone saying mining for EV minerals is a disaster needs to really understand the size and number of issues the oil industry has had.

---

Of course there have been **** ups in the O&G business. I don't disagree. I was just being a smart ass.

But, some of the stuff the EV mineral mining companies are doing would make 1800s coal miners say NOPE.

---

Have we discussed this? Pretty cool to use geothermal plants to generate electricity, then extract the lithium before pumping it back underground.

I guess the "there's not enough lithium" talking point can be retired. Live look at the symptoms of the shortage:

https://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=li&u=kg&d=240

---

I think that's a great idea.

I'm not in the "there's not enough lithium" crowd though..

Just pointing out that MOST of the extraction methods have not been very environmentally friendly either.

Second part wasn't directed at you, but others on this thread

GAC06 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Kansas Kid said:

---

Then fine, explain these away.

---

That's a BP **** up.

I guess you missed a) my sarcasm and b) it wasn't an oil EXTRACTION issue in the pic you posted.

---

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

The last one was an Exxon screw up and I am not sure who to blame on the second one but it wasn't the Deep Water Horizon. There is a second platform adjacent to the one on fire.

Needless to say, you can find dozens of examples. I work in the oil industry so I am not anti oil but I also am realistic enough to know that the industry has had its share of environmental and safety catastrophes. Anyone saying mining for EV minerals is a disaster needs to really understand the size and number of issues the oil industry has had.

---

Of course there have been **** ups in the O&G business. I don't disagree. I was just being a smart ass.

But, some of the stuff the EV mineral mining companies are doing would make 1800s coal miners say NOPE.

---

Have we discussed this? Pretty cool to use geothermal plants to generate electricity, then extract the lithium before pumping it back underground.

I guess the "there's not enough lithium" talking point can be retired. Live look at the symptoms of the shortage:

https://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=li&u=kg&d=240

---

A large part of this drop is the drop in growth rate for EVs. If we were to go to all EVs by 2035, I don't think there would be enough lithium to avoid a major spike. Partly because at current prices, I don't think the new mines would be profitable to build so this drop will delay production increases. I think it is a mostly moot point because we won't be going all EV for economic and political reasons.

GAC06 said:

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Second part wasn't directed at you, but others on this thread

---

Gotcha.

Why are so many traditional car dealers this crappy?

Inexplicable why they can't sell EVs.

There is zero shortage of lithium in the world to build batteries. The issue is the mining and refining/impacts extracting it all to build batteries at the scale the globalists/WEF demand will have. As well, the ramp up would/could be unprecedented in production, and is not really tied at all to re-use/recyclability of the batteries to be produced.

Bubblez said:

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Why are so many traditional car dealers this crappy?

---

Because there are anti-competitive laws on the books here in Texas that serve to stifle consumer choice in favor of the status quo which only serves to line the pockets of middle men by fleecing consumers with little choice. Folks like Fred Brown, the Allen Family, etc. they sit behind antiquated laws that do not allow consumers to buy directly from dealerships and obtaining the best possible price.

No, we have to go through a middle man in a state that's supposed to be a capitalist bastion. Instead, we get crony capitalism.

I would question all of those add ons but the catalytic converter shows why all those that defend you have to buy through a dealer because you need help and protection with the major financial transaction of buying a car are totally full of it. I am sure this dealer also has a $499 document fee to do their legally required job as well. would much rather buy direct from the manufacturer. I have had only one good experience dealing with a dealer and the rest have been almost as bad as dealing with the DMV (one was even worse)

Sorry, paywall. But it's a really good article about EVs not selling.

"EV Revolution Gets A Reality Check."
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-electric-vehicle-slowdown-ford-gm-tesla-b20a748e

Quote:

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As recently as a year ago, automakers were struggling to meet the hot demand for electric vehicles. In a span of months, though, the dynamic flipped, leaving them hitting the brakes on what for many had been an all-out push toward an electric transformation.

A confluence of factors had led many auto executives to see the potential for a dramatic societal shift to electric cars: government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers, and Tesla's stock valuation, which, at roughly $600 billion, still towers over the legacy car companies.

But the push overlooked an important constituency: the consumer.

---

Tibbers said:

---

Bubblez said:

---

Why are so many traditional car dealers this crappy?

---

Because there are anti-competitive laws on the books here in Texas that serve to stifle consumer choice in favor of the status quo which only serves to line the pockets of middle men by fleecing consumers with little choice. Folks like Fred Brown, the Allen Family, etc. they sit behind antiquated laws that do not allow consumers to buy directly from dealerships and obtaining the best possible price.

No, we have to go through a middle man in a state that's supposed to be a capitalist bastion. Instead, we get crony capitalism.

---

Huffines , a torch bearer for the conservatives in this state and owner of several dealerships

Every city has that one family and to think how easy a sale to consumers to change the laws because the sleazy slimey car salesman is a cliche for a reason.

Now I believe folks dealerships would lose vast sums if even folks like A&M could cozy up to manufacturers as well and A&M could save a bundle possibly so it honestly makes zero sense at all that there isn't a single push from any legitimate source to change this dastardly law.

Very, very strange. The only people that profit off the current paradigm are the ones who have earned the sleazy car salesman title.

And the APRs they saddle some of these kids is just beyond ridiculous. Why are we protecting a blatant predatory practice?

Well, well, well...

Looks like the idiot libs and EV zealots have been punched in the mouth by reality and are relenting:

"The Biden administration is backing down in the fight over the future of the car business. And it's likely due to pressure from Biden's political allies.

According to the New York Times, the administration is set to alter its rules about forcing the sale of undesirable electric cars on unwilling consumers. Not because it has realized that the obsession with EV's is unnecessary, especially considering their questionable environmental benefit, but because labor unions and automakers are putting on the pressure. "

https://www.outkick.com/analysis/biden-administration-backs-down-on-ev-mandates-after-massive-pushback

Everyone could see this coming from a mile away. Connecticut cut their mandate a few months ago. This is why I have been saying I think EVs will cap out for new vehicle sales in the US for the foreseeable future at 30-40% because the political pressure would force the mandates to be dropped.

Great to see. We are living in a great 'I told you so' moment about EV's no doubt;

Quote:

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We are living through one of history's longest and most excruciating versions of "We told you so". When in March 2020, the world's governments decided to "shut down" the world's economies and throttle any and all social activity, and deny kids schooling plus cancel worship services and holidays, there was no end to the warnings of the terrible collateral damage, even if most of them were censored.

Every bit of the warnings proved true. You see it in every story in the news. It's behind every headline. It's in countless family tragedies. It's in the loss of trust. It's in the upheaval in industry and demographics. The fingerprints of lockdowns are deeply embedded in every aspect of our lives, in ways obvious and not so much.

Actually, the results have been even worse than critics predicted, simply because the chaos lasted such a long time. There are seemingly endless iterations of this theme. Learning losses, infrastructure breakages, rampant criminality, vast debt, inflation, lost work ethic, a growing commercial real estate bust, real income losses, political extremism, labour shortages, substance addiction, and more much besides, all trace to the fateful decision.

The headlines on seemingly unrelated matters go back to the same, in circuitous ways. A good example is the news of the electric vehicle bust. The confusion, disorientation, malinvestment, overproduction and retrenchment along with the crazed ambition to force convert a country and world away from oil and gas towards wind and solar all trace to those fateful days.

---

Quote:

---

In short, "the massive miscalculation has left the industry in a bind, facing a potential glut of EVs and half-empty factories while still having to meet stricter environmental regulations globally."
Today, lots are selling the cars at a loss just to avoid the costs of keeping them around.

Truly, this has been one spectacular boom-bust in a single industry. There seems to be no real end to the bust either. These days it appears that everyone has given up on any chance of actually converting the mass of American cars to become EVs. All recent trends are headed in the other direction.

Meanwhile, the EV is deeply loved by many as a second car for well-to-do suburban commuters who own homes, can charge overnight and have a petrol or diesel car as a backup for cold weather and out-of-town trips. That is to say, the market is becoming exactly what it should be a street-worthy golf cart with very fancy features and not some paradigmatic case for the 'Great Reset'. That's simply not happening, despite all the subsidies and tax breaks.

"A confluence of factors had led many auto executives to see the potential for a dramatic societal shift to electric cars," writes the Journal, including "Government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers and Tesla's stock valuation, which, at roughly $600 billion, still towers over the legacy car companies. But the push overlooked an important constituency: the consumer."

Indeed, the American economy, much to the chagrin of many, still primarily relies on consumers to make choices in their best interest. When that doesn't happen, no amount of subsidies can make up the difference.

---

More at the link, as they say…

Exxon remains committed to lithium expansion (btw, this is the Arkansas play):

Quote:

---

Lithium suppliers have been reining in spending and even production as a slowing of EV demand collided with new lithium mine startups. Prices are off record 2022 highs by as much as 80%, but Exxon is insistent that its future in lithium is bright.

"We've seen a redoubling of efforts from customers to reach out to us to engage at the most senior levels of the corporation," Exxon's lithium global business manager Patrick Howarth told Bloomberg on the sidelines of an industry event this week, adding that potential customers "are changing their demand forecast, but their consistent theme is they need more lithium than they have today."

Exxon's plan for getting into the lithium space at a time when battery metals prices were sky high. Since then, lithium prices have careened off the cliff.

Exxon's plans specifically involve extracting lithium from underground saltwater reservoirs in the Smackover Formation in Arkansas, utilizing a method not currently used at scale. While falling lithium prices have brought the viability of some lithium projects unviable, but Exxon is undeterred, armed with deep pockets filled with oil money.

According to Howarth, Exxon's financial prowess could be precisely what sets Exxon apart and allows it to withstand price routes while it refines methods and completes its lithium projects. Other players in the lithium space have fewer funds to ride out a signficant downturn like the one we're seeing now.
Exxon has forecast that it will be within the top 10 global lithium producers by 2030.

---

Sorry your wonder golf carts depend on big oil and China so much.

I think EXXON has been sued by New York for climate blah blah,
and pretty much have to spend some money on the green cult.