Rossticus said:

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Initial story of first observed instance last week https://t.co/oB4do7SaaX

— H I Sutton (@CovertShores) June 28, 2023

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I have to wonder how effective this is in this day and age. It is strikingly similar to what the Germans used in World War II, and it didn't stop the Brits from taking out their ships, and that was before the sophisticated electronic detection systems of today.

2000AgPhD said:

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I have to wonder how effective this is in this day and age. It is strikingly similar to what the Germans used in World War II, and it didn't stop the Brits from taking out their ships, and that was before the sophisticated electronic detection systems of today.

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Cope paint.

Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

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Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

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Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

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Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

Yulia and Anna Aksenchenko, twin sisters, were killed in a missile attack by the russian terrorists on a cafe in Kramatorsk, Donetsk region.
The girls should have turned 15 in September.#russiaisaterroriststate pic.twitter.com/JmVdGrONeT

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) June 28, 2023

NM

74OA said:

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12 US/European trained brigades are back in Ukraine. 4 more currently in training. Ukraine is definitely withholding the bulk of its mechanized reserves at the moment.

BRIGADES

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There's 2 ways to look at this.

1) We were fed really good propaganda by the Ukes and partners and the training and brigades don't exist. However, we've seen all kinds of evidence to the contrary.

or

2) The offensive is nowhere close to being in full swing and their already having small success.

Here's a nice academic piece that puts the mutiny in historical context.

WAGNER

AgLA06 said:

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txags92 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

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Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

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Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

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Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

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Nothing about that IG post provides any evidence to back up that claim. They reference "reportedly" filled with western SOF troops, but provide no link to where those reports are, and reference obituaries starting to show up, but provide no links to the obituaries. Color me less than convinced by their crack reporting on the subject.

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There's also no way to link it to that event. I mean an offensive has kicked off and were supposed to be surprised there's an uptick in high experienced warrior's deaths?

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Yeah, I almost added that to my reply as well. With the offensive (at least the opening stages) underway, there is no way to tell where those obituaries are coming from and how they died. I am not inclined to believe much from an IG source on the war that had pretty much no mention of the Wagner Mutiny.

P.U.T.U said:

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Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

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Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

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Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

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Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

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Show us proof the building was full of something other than the civilians. There's lots of videos of all the civilians eating lunch in the photos and videos that were taken before the attack.

BTW the cafe in question that was hit was outdoors.

Still lots of equipment yet to be seen. No marders, no strykers, no M-55's, etc. Makes sense that those units haven't been committed yet

A detained gunner who filmed a restaurant in #Kramatorsk to guide a russian missiles.
This is the most direct proof that the russians were targeting the restaurant.
And therefore, it can be evidence of of a #WarCrime
At least 10 dead and over 60 wounded as of now. pic.twitter.com/YYwMUzJmEH

— Ukraine Front Lines (@EuromaidanPR) June 28, 2023

Quote:

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Ukrainian Defense forces advanced near Rozdolivka, north to Soledar, south to Paraskoviyivka, near Zaliznyanske, Berkhivka, Klischiyivka and Kurdumivka

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/28-june-ukrainian-defense-forces-advanced-near-rozdolivka

txags92 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

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Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

---

Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

---

Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

---

Nothing about that IG post provides any evidence to back up that claim. They reference "reportedly" filled with western SOF troops, but provide no link to where those reports are, and reference obituaries starting to show up, but provide no links to the obituaries. Color me less than convinced by their crack reporting on the subject.

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I agree there is no definitive proof this is true but a two minute review of the pics of the wounded and most of the rescuers they do not appear to be regular citizens or even regular first responders. To me and as much as I don't want to say it I think the claim is likely true. We know more in a few days.

Great vids on the assault and counter assault on left bank Kherson. UKR artillery hammered orc INF and orc BTR shot up some of their own.

JFABNRGR said:

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txags92 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

---

Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

---

Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

---

Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

---

Nothing about that IG post provides any evidence to back up that claim. They reference "reportedly" filled with western SOF troops, but provide no link to where those reports are, and reference obituaries starting to show up, but provide no links to the obituaries. Color me less than convinced by their crack reporting on the subject.

---

I agree there is no definitive proof this is true but a two minute review of the pics of the wounded and most of the rescuers they do not appear to be regular citizens or even regular first responders. To me and as much as I don't want to say it I think the claim is likely true. We know more in a few days.

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Those 14 year old girls in the SOF too?

sclaff said:

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A detained gunner who filmed a restaurant in #Kramatorsk to guide a russian missiles.
This is the most direct proof that the russians were targeting the restaurant.
And therefore, it can be evidence of of a #WarCrime
At least 10 dead and over 60 wounded as of now. pic.twitter.com/YYwMUzJmEH

— Ukraine Front Lines (@EuromaidanPR) June 28, 2023

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They were just kids. They hadn't even lived yet.

That f'k deserves worse than death. He deserves whatever the worst is done to traitors by the cruelest of methods every day for decades on end.

JFABNRGR said:

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txags92 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

---

Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

---

Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

---

Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

---

Nothing about that IG post provides any evidence to back up that claim. They reference "reportedly" filled with western SOF troops, but provide no link to where those reports are, and reference obituaries starting to show up, but provide no links to the obituaries. Color me less than convinced by their crack reporting on the subject.

---

I agree there is no definitive proof this is true but a two minute review of the pics of the wounded and most of the rescuers they do not appear to be regular citizens or even regular first responders. To me and as much as I don't want to say it I think the claim is likely true. We know more in a few days.

---

Given Kramatorsk's location relative to alot of the current action, I would be surprised if the town wasn't crawling with Ukraining and volunteer legion troops. And to see them there helping clear debris and rescue survivors would be no surprise either. But the claim is that the hotel was full of western SOF and pics and videos from before the attack suggest otherwise. There may have been some there eating in the cafe along with the locals, but that does not make it an acceptable target in my mind.

The Miles of Obstacles Slowing Ukraine's Counteroffensive - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Interesting article with graphics about the obstacles and traps facing Ukraine as it seeks to breach the Russian defensive lines in Ukraine.

I'd post the graphics, but the descriptions in the images don't copy when pasting.

Teslag said:

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JFABNRGR said:

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txags92 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

---

Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

---

Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

---

Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

---

Nothing about that IG post provides any evidence to back up that claim. They reference "reportedly" filled with western SOF troops, but provide no link to where those reports are, and reference obituaries starting to show up, but provide no links to the obituaries. Color me less than convinced by their crack reporting on the subject.

---

I agree there is no definitive proof this is true but a two minute review of the pics of the wounded and most of the rescuers they do not appear to be regular citizens or even regular first responders. To me and as much as I don't want to say it I think the claim is likely true. We know more in a few days.

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Those 14 year old girls in the SOF too?

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****ing of course NOT and of course not every person in the restaurant would be SOF if the claim is true and I weep for them as much as I do any SOF in there.

EDIT and for the record my post did not condone the attack either way only that I think the claim is true.

Could both not be true in this case? Could the building be housing units and the cafe be next to it as well?

OMG
A pizza 🍕 place
In #Kramatorsk Ukraine

Our friends from
⁦@KonstantinTeam⁩
On the scene
Helping save lives

Supplied by us
From Canada 🇨🇦
Steveston, Richmond#NorthVancouver
Donors all over BC
&🇬🇧🇿🇦🇵🇱& so many more@Dnvfrs ⁦@NSRescue⁩
⁦@dnvfirecharity⁩ pic.twitter.com/qf8uI1Z42x

— Defend Ukraine Foundation Canada (@defendukraini) June 27, 2023

Not sure if this linked correctly. Video from a foreign volunteer helping after the strike and he says "Look what these *******s are doing to this country. There's soldiers under the rubble, all over." I think it's safe to conclude from the strain in his voice and the amount of people there that it's a significant number.

As I said on @OutFrontCNN last night, we discovered a surge of panicky midnight communication between FSB, GRU and FSO already the night of 22 to 23 June, a full day before Prigozhin launched the coup attempt. This report may explain why. https://t.co/EKU3IoOPju

— Christo Grozev (@christogrozev) June 28, 2023

txags92 said:

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JFABNRGR said:

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txags92 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Gordo14 said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Quote:

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Russian army conducted missile strike at central Kramatorsk

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-russian-army-conducted-missile-strike-at-central

Твари нанесли удар по центру Краматорска! pic.twitter.com/fZVTMO1jxw

— Прибрежный(Rezerv) (@Rezerv8) June 27, 2023

Quote:

---

Missile hit crowded cafe in central Kramatorsk, - head of regional administration

---

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/27-june-missile-hit-crowded-cafe-in-central-kramatorsk--head

---

Another sign of desperation. Armies in control of the situation don't resort to terror attacks, because they know that focusing on military targets is much more effective. When Russia doesn't know what to target and they feel the pressure building... That's when Russia terrorize civilians. Putin is desperate to project strength.

---

Appears not, this building was full of western SOF mercenaries and Ukraine troops. Ukraine said Russia attacked peaceful buildings but obituaries started popping up according to modern_combat_history on Instagram

---

Nothing about that IG post provides any evidence to back up that claim. They reference "reportedly" filled with western SOF troops, but provide no link to where those reports are, and reference obituaries starting to show up, but provide no links to the obituaries. Color me less than convinced by their crack reporting on the subject.

---

I agree there is no definitive proof this is true but a two minute review of the pics of the wounded and most of the rescuers they do not appear to be regular citizens or even regular first responders. To me and as much as I don't want to say it I think the claim is likely true. We know more in a few days.

---

Given Kramatorsk's location relative to alot of the current action, I would be surprised if the town wasn't crawling with Ukraining and volunteer legion troops. And to see them there helping clear debris and rescue survivors would be no surprise either. But the claim is that the hotel was full of western SOF and pics and videos from before the attack suggest otherwise. There may have been some there eating in the cafe along with the locals, but that does not make it an acceptable target in my mind.

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Nor is it acceptable under the International Law of War which says that the impact of weapons of warfare must be proportionate to the military value of the target and avoid unnecessary noncombatant suffering and destruction of civilian objects. The Russians could not care less.

There was Twitter chatter (obviously unconfirmed due to the nature of Twitter chatter) that the shops and bars in that area were frequented by westerners. Read, although I can't find it now, said it was a popular spot for western media/journalists. Would not shock me to find out there were some European or perhaps even North American casualties there.

Not a Bot said:

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There was Twitter chatter (obviously unconfirmed due to the nature of Twitter chatter) that the shops and bars in that area were frequented by westerners. Read, although I can't find it now, said it was a popular spot for western media/journalists. Would not shock me to find out there were some European or perhaps even North American casualties there.

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What part of that makes it a military target? It's also known to be one of the only towns our east anyone can get modern amenities. It's known for a regroup / jumping off point for journalists, families to meet soldiers on leave, and volunteer groups. Even if there happens to be a couple of soldiers sitting in civilian clothes with their wives, it doesn't make it a legitimate target.

Unless they can show there was some secret meeting of generals or high level targets, none of the excuses so far justify killing civilians.

The equivalent is letting the Ukes hit any town in Russia that happens to have soldiers pass through. But they don't stoop to that kind of barbaric nature. They hit known military targets. ammo and fuel depots, army barracks, logistical hubs with military equipment. Not some random cafe a soldier might be eating at with 100 civilians.

Wow. He's unlikely to have a pleasant evening.

ConstructionAg01 said:

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Wow. He's unlikely to have a pleasant evening.

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He gone.

Ag97 said:

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Here come the purges. Gonna be lots of officers eating bullets or worse in the next month. Just hope their replacements are less capable and more corrupt so the existing Russian State collapses sooner rather than later.

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Do we want a collapse? A humbling, sure, but I want someone still guarding the nukes.

Ag97 said:

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Here come the purges. Gonna be lots of officers eating bullets or worse in the next month. Just hope their replacements are less capable and more corrupt so the existing Russian State collapses sooner rather than later.

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Further confirmation of my beliefs prigozhin thinking he had the support of various higher level Russian military leaders and it not panning out because they lost their nerve