10thYrSr said:
It sounds like they reject the plan. Why is this unexpected?
Rossticus, what do you see as the ending of this war? How do they do it?
Not unexpected in the least. They've finally dropped all pretense that resolution of their publicly stated (fabricated) grievances at the beginning of the war were, in fact, their true motivations.
The wholesale rejection of what amounts to everything Russia has been claiming they were negotiating for, completely favorable to them at the expense of Ukraine, should put quite a few misconceptions to bed and bring reality into focus for folks who bought in to the possibility of peace for Ukraine that didn't emanate from military victory.
It should also crystallize an understanding of what Russia is willing to attempt if they think that they can, ultimately, get away with it. If they think that they can restore the glory and power they're owed on the world stage that they were unfairly denied by "the west". To them, you're either with them via complicity/capitulation, or you're a Nazi.
What do I see as the ending? I wish I could confidently say. Ukraine remains a prohibitive underdog despite having outperformed expectations and defied the odds to this point. As other posters have noted, while Ukraine may have the will, the heart, and the men, it takes phenomenal resources to engage in protracted conventional warfare while also dealing with the domestic catastrophe that result from your economic system grinding to a halt, your infrastructure being decimated, etc.
It's going to take a lot of charity and willpower from a lot of countries to give Ukraine the time and resources required to train and field a large enough force to halt, uproot, and drive out Russia as they try to politically annex every village, town, and city they either destroy or manage to secure and prop up puppet governments in.
That this degree of international dedication and goodwill actually are capable of continued cultivation and sustainment, that "never again" can really means something to generations that are largely removed from similar experiences such that they're willing to even sacrifice convenience in order to see it through, remains tenuous at best, IMO. But if it does then the Ukrainian people have a puncher's chance. If not then Russia will eventually strangle Ukraine to death both militarily and economically and subsequently do everything in their power to succeed in their stated goal of ensuring that Ukrainian people and culture are lost to history in favor of Russia's narrative.
TLDR: I have no flipping clue which way this will swing but if Western Europeans keep thinking that they can buy peace and prosperity for themselves by negotiating away the freedom of others, this is all going to amount to little more than one very pricey virtue signal for US and a valiant yet ill fated fight for survival for the Ukrainian people which could still serve to embolden Russia in other eventual endeavors.
