***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]

7,599,939 Views | 47846 Replies | Last: 3 hrs ago by sclaff
MeatDr
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Mule
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G Martin 87 said:

Rossticus said:




The USSR and Russia have a long, sad, terrible history of not treating the dangers of radiation with enough care and respect. The chances of Putin using a nuke somewhere in response to "provocations" by the West cannot be dismissed.
Repeatedly, we have witnessed one common theme since Feb 24th: Poor judgment.
Texas Aggies
BQ_90
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MeatDr said:

Not that it's anything other than symbolic.

That'll show them. Next step is double secret probation
FamousAgg
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ABATTBQ11
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BQ_90 said:

MeatDr said:

Not that it's anything other than symbolic.

That'll show them. Next step is double secret probation


Should be voting on complete expulsion
Ulysses90
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Rossticus said:

Statement from Milley yesterday re: Russian deterrence gives a bit of insight into US intel and approach. Excerpted from a larger article.

' Several Republicans asked Milley and Austin whether the US failed in its efforts to deter Russian President Vladimir Putin from attacking Ukraine. Milley responded that he did not think Putin could have been deterred unless US forces had deployed from Ukraine a scenario he would have advised against had it been proposed.

"Candidly, short of the commitment of US military forces into Ukraine proper, I'm not sure he was deterrable. This has been a long-term objective of his that goes back years," Milley said. "I think the idea of deterring Putin from invading Ukraine, deterring him by the United States, would have required the commitment of US military forces, and I think that would have risked armed conflict with Russia, which I certainly wouldn't have advised." '


I wonder where Milley was during Operation Deny Flight. There were no NATO boots on the ground and there was still shooting going on throughout the opetation but it was approved to prevent or impede a genocide in a country that was not part of NATO.
ATX_AG_08
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Jetpilot86
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Rossticus said:


It's on now. The farmers won't take this laying down. Clearly Putin doesn't know how much armor they have!
PJYoung
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PJYoung
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VitruvianAg
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MeatDr said:


Why not fly over the Black Sea, out of curiosity.

Isn't most of it open waters or does Russia claim it as theirs?
PJYoung
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DTP02
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PJYoung said:




It's crazy that's where we are in this war. Who would have thought back in February that there would be a legitimate topic of discussion as to whether Ukraine should try to push Russian troops out of Donbas and Crimea?
TXAggie2011
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Ulysses90 said:

Rossticus said:

Statement from Milley yesterday re: Russian deterrence gives a bit of insight into US intel and approach. Excerpted from a larger article.

' Several Republicans asked Milley and Austin whether the US failed in its efforts to deter Russian President Vladimir Putin from attacking Ukraine. Milley responded that he did not think Putin could have been deterred unless US forces had deployed from Ukraine a scenario he would have advised against had it been proposed.

"Candidly, short of the commitment of US military forces into Ukraine proper, I'm not sure he was deterrable. This has been a long-term objective of his that goes back years," Milley said. "I think the idea of deterring Putin from invading Ukraine, deterring him by the United States, would have required the commitment of US military forces, and I think that would have risked armed conflict with Russia, which I certainly wouldn't have advised." '
I wonder where Milley was during Operation Deny Flight. There were no NATO boots on the ground and there was still shooting going on throughout the opetation but it was approved to prevent or impede a genocide in a country that was not part of NATO.
Operation Deny Flight would fall under "commitment of US forces."
ABATTBQ11
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This is how we know the Russians planned for a very short engagement and/or limited international response. A lot of their military's equipment relies on foreign sourced parts, with some actually coming from Ukraine. As it stands, they are being denied just about everything. They've supposedly already stopped tank production due to an inability to source parts and materials, and this would be just another indicator of how impacted they are.

If they've gone through all or almost all of their stockpiles, they're going to have a hard time defending against the Ukrainians who can get PGM's, ATGM's, MANPADS, loitering munitions, etc from the West. IMO we should be giving them longer range weapons to hit strategic targets and cutoff Russia's ability to support operations in Ukrainian territory.

It also says something if China refused to meet with them. China either wants a weak Russia or doesn't want to be associated with the bad press (culturally they are all about maintaining face) and a losing partner.

Personally, I hope Russia is kicked out and told sanctions will remain until politicians and officers responsible are scapegoated handed over for tribunals. If Russia is running out of munitions like rockets, that could very well be possible.
MeatDr
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GAC06
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Miley says he doesn't think Putin could have been deterred, but I guess we'll never know because we didn't even try. If we had matched his build up and sent 200,000 to Poland and the Baltics, maybe he would have been deterred.
PJYoung
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GAC06 said:

Miley says he doesn't think Putin could have been deterred, but I guess we'll never know because we didn't even try. If we had matched his build up and sent 200,000 to Poland and the Baltics, maybe he would have been deterred.

The cynic in me says I know that would've been in Ukraine's best interest, God only knows the complete scope of the atrocities that have been committed, but would it have been in our interest?

Russia has been bled dry and Putin immeasurably weakened at great human cost.

I think there might have been an over-arching strategy in standing back and letting it happen and then supporting Ukraine like crazy as they fight for their lives.
ABATTBQ11
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The thing about war is, your enemy often has a say in when it's over. Even if Russia wants to end it, Ukraine doesn't have to stop, especially if the rest of the world wants to punish Russia.
ABATTBQ11
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I think it would have been in our best interest. Putin would have been deterred for a long time, and potentially permanently. He's 69. Another few years and he will be, "too old for this ****."

It also would have likely sent the right messages to China without the cost in human lives.
JFABNRGR
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I can't find a single legitimate military target here. Just horrific.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/txosfz/aerial_survey_of_village_moschun_destroyed_by/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
GAC06
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I don't think anyone thought Ukraine would fight as hard as it has or that Russia would be as inept as they have been. Most would have thought a quick win in Ukraine followed by a threat against Poland or the Baltics was at least a possibility.
Eliminatus
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PJYoung said:

GAC06 said:

Miley says he doesn't think Putin could have been deterred, but I guess we'll never know because we didn't even try. If we had matched his build up and sent 200,000 to Poland and the Baltics, maybe he would have been deterred.

The cynic in me says I know that would've been in Ukraine's best interest, God only knows the complete scope of the atrocities that have been committed, but would it have been in our interest?

Russia has been bled dry and Putin immeasurably weakened at great human cost.

I think there might have been an over-arching strategy in standing back and letting it happen and then supporting Ukraine like crazy as they fight for their lives.
Exactly. Again, the cold calculus of war has the several billion dollars we have sent in aid as being some of the absolute best bang for our buck we could ever hope on a macro scale when facing off against Russia. The ROI of our current aid has been insanely high compared to all the previous decades to date.

We should keep doing it. And then doing it some more. Proxy wars are vicious and self serving, for sure. Doesn't stop them from existing and it is refreshing to be reaping the benefits of one of these for once.

Of course, it comes at the expense of the Ukrainian people..... War sucks. I hate it but it will never stop. And I would rather us get SOME benefit out of an otherwise awful situation....

ETA: Will also say that the Ukes are also benefitting though. Their country is in shambles and they are facing the horrors of war directly while the rest of us are fat and happy in our homes, but they are also able to fight as well as they have BECAUSE of this aid. It's a weird, ****ed up symbiotic relationship in a way. I also never forget that Russia was the one who started this all.
G Martin 87
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GAC06 said:

Miley says he doesn't think Putin could have been deterred, but I guess we'll never know because we didn't even try. If we had matched his build up and sent 200,000 to Poland and the Baltics, maybe he would have been deterred.
Deterred until we leave or Putin dies. A large deployment for an indefinite amount of time would have been required. It might have been enough, but it would still have left NATO countries with little incentive to share the cost of their own defense. How long do we continue to babysit Europe? Indefinitely? Until Russian dreams of glory and relevance fade?
samurai_science
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GAC06 said:

I don't think anyone thought Ukraine would fight as hard as it has or that Russia would be as inept as they have been. Most would have thought a quick win in Ukraine followed by a threat against Poland or the Baltics was at least a possibility.
Many see Russia as the power it was in 1941-1945 with massive hordes rolling back Germany/Romania.
pagerman @ work
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GAC06 said:

Miley says he doesn't think Putin could have been deterred, but I guess we'll never know because we didn't even try. If we had matched his build up and sent 200,000 to Poland and the Baltics, maybe he would have been deterred.
I think that would have simply stoked his existing fears of NATO encroachment on Russia's borders, thereby further justifying (in his mind) the invasion in the first place.

Simply stationing a bunch of troops in countries that aren't Ukraine would not have deterred his invasion of Ukraine. Further, the calculus of fighting Russia would have been exactly the same, meaning we wouldn't have done it.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
MeatDr
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These guys claim they've been able to get some military equipment in to Mariupol.

"We were able to deliver help to Mariupol

The Ukrainian city, which the enemy is destroying the most now, continues to defend itself! Our team managed to transfer thermal imagers, quadcopters and power banks to the defenses of Mariupol. And, despite the complex logistics, we will do it again! And more!"
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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JFABNRGR said:

Rossticus said:

Russia with even more forced deportations. Ethnic cleansing. Bull*****


and now one of the few assets they can trade for the lifting of sanctions....
Could these be Russian supporters?
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
aggiehawg
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Quote:

Could these be Russian supporters?
Some of them, possibly. One thing the Soviets and now Russians are very good at is making people disappear.
RebelE Infantry
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Yes, they could be.
GAC06
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pagerman @ work said:

GAC06 said:

Miley says he doesn't think Putin could have been deterred, but I guess we'll never know because we didn't even try. If we had matched his build up and sent 200,000 to Poland and the Baltics, maybe he would have been deterred.
I think that would have simply stoked his existing fears of NATO encroachment on Russia's borders, thereby further justifying (in his mind) the invasion in the first place.

Simply stationing a bunch of troops in countries that aren't Ukraine would not have deterred his invasion of Ukraine. Further, the calculus of fighting Russia would have been exactly the same, meaning we wouldn't have done it.


I don't claim to know whether deterrence would have worked, but we won't know because we didn't try is what I'm saying. It may not have been feasible with pre-Ukraine NATO but we know that projecting weakness wouldn't deter Putin since that's what we did and he did in fact invade.
txags92
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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

JFABNRGR said:

Rossticus said:

Russia with even more forced deportations. Ethnic cleansing. Bull*****


and now one of the few assets they can trade for the lifting of sanctions....
Could these be Russian supporters?
Doubtful...more likely to be opposition. Russia's M.O. is to go in and clear out a bunch of the opposition and send the rest into hiding, then hold a vote on independence or alignment with Russia. When only the Russian supporters feel safe showing up to the polls, the result is a foregone conclusion.
AgLA06
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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

JFABNRGR said:

Rossticus said:

Russia with even more forced deportations. Ethnic cleansing. Bull*****


and now one of the few assets they can trade for the lifting of sanctions....
Could these be Russian supporters?


That wouldn't make sense. If Russia wants to hold the region the last thing they want to do is remove supporters. If anything you remove non-supporters and bring in insentavized supporters from Russia or surrounding territory to populate the region.
TRM
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MeatDr said:

These guys claim they've been able to get some military equipment in to Mariupol.

"We were able to deliver help to Mariupol

The Ukrainian city, which the enemy is destroying the most now, continues to defend itself! Our team managed to transfer thermal imagers, quadcopters and power banks to the defenses of Mariupol. And, despite the complex logistics, we will do it again! And more!"

There was a Twitter post I read earlier today that said the evac flight that got shot down in Mariupol wasn't a one-off, but Ukraine had been doing re-supply and med evac for awhile and they were just unlucky Russian troops were nearby with a manpads.
Waffledynamics
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MeatDr said:

These guys claim they've been able to get some military equipment in to Mariupol.

"We were able to deliver help to Mariupol

The Ukrainian city, which the enemy is destroying the most now, continues to defend itself! Our team managed to transfer thermal imagers, quadcopters and power banks to the defenses of Mariupol. And, despite the complex logistics, we will do it again! And more!"



Why would you say this? Just do it and don't compromise yourselves and the defenders.
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