ABATTBQ11 said:

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rgag12 said:

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3rd and 2 said:

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Just keep going until Russia implodes

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We've cut off Iran and North Korea from the world and they haven't imploded. Especially since China is supporting Russia, the collapse of Russian society isn't going to happen.

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There is a very different standard of living between NK/Iran and Russia today...

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And? Their governments still operate. Their people didn't overthrow the governments when their standards of living dropped. Frankly I don't think Russian standard of living will drop to NK or even Iran levels

Irish 2.0 said:

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It is very easy for people to keep saying "push to the end and don't give up" when it isn't our citizens being slaughtered. As awesome as it is to see farmers stealing tanks with tractors and armor units blown to ****, the sheer numbers are in Russia's favor still. That hasn't changed.

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Seems to me, the numbers are less in Russia's favor today than it was against Afghanistan in the 80s.

Mule said:

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Putin is a chess player. He knows the gig is up with this "military operation." He will have Zelensky assassinated someway somehow and year or two down the road.

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Who says the Ukes cant return that favor. Or score first.

Irish 2.0 said:

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It is very easy for people to keep saying "push to the end and don't give up" when it isn't our citizens being slaughtered. As awesome as it is to see farmers stealing tanks with tractors and armor units blown to ****, the sheer numbers are in Russia's favor still. That hasn't changed.

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True. It's a lot easier for me to say eff russia and stay strong Ukraine when it's not my family getting randomly shelled.

However, the offer is no deal. The ukes have not been defeated yet. It doesn't appear that will be the case anytime soon.

Putin's terms are so he can stop, not ukraine. If Zelenskyy made this deal, all those deaths would be for nothing.

aTmAg said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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It is very easy for people to keep saying "push to the end and don't give up" when it isn't our citizens being slaughtered. As awesome as it is to see farmers stealing tanks with tractors and armor units blown to ****, the sheer numbers are in Russia's favor still. That hasn't changed.

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Seems to me, the numbers are less in Russia's favor today than it was against Afghanistan in the 80s.

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Keep in mind Russia doesn't care about it's people. They'll keep sending the lambs to slaughter. Ukraine's government actually has a conscious and doesn't want to lead their people into an endless war.

Besides the PM crap, the deal basically is what the rest of the western world was prepared to give up without sanctions to Russia. Putin furthered the invasion. If he'd stopped in Donbas, Russia wouldn't have had this massive blowback from western society.

rgag12 said:

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ttu_85 said:

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rgag12 said:

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3rd and 2 said:

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Just keep going until Russia implodes

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We've cut off Iran and North Korea from the world and they haven't imploded. Especially since China is supporting Russia, the collapse of Russian society isn't going to happen.

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Uh have you looked at a run of the mill visual night time satellite pic of NK. By global standards that is an imploded place. And How many North Koreans have starved in the last 20 years? Some estimations are in the hundreds of thousands.

The game is still early on Iran. They fought a nation we defeated in 15 days, Iraq 2003, to a 10 year blood soaked standstill- 1980's.

I guess "imploded" means different things to different people. You seem to have low standards in this regard.

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Uhhh I don't seem to have noticed any successful revolutions overthrowing the government in any of those countries, which what implode means.

If your definition of implode means that Russians won't be able to watch porn, watch Netflix, or drive a new BMW then yea I guess it's going to implode?

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No implode means to contract, to violently and suddenly make smaller. Russia taking over the Ukraine and making it a buffer/client state would implode its economy, its freedoms, its importance to the global economy.

I'm right of center but you post like a far right embarrassment. This is simple Russia == bad.

Irish 2.0 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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It is very easy for people to keep saying "push to the end and don't give up" when it isn't our citizens being slaughtered. As awesome as it is to see farmers stealing tanks with tractors and armor units blown to ****, the sheer numbers are in Russia's favor still. That hasn't changed.

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Seems to me, the numbers are less in Russia's favor today than it was against Afghanistan in the 80s.

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Keep in mind Russia doesn't care about it's people. They'll keep sending the lambs to slaughter. Ukraine's government actually has a conscious and doesn't want to lead their people into an endless war.

Besides the PM crap, the deal basically is what the rest of the western world was prepared to give up without sanctions to Russia. Putin furthered the invasion. If he'd stopped in Donbas, Russia wouldn't have had this massive blowback from western society.

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This is the correct assessment.

Yes I don't really get it, if Russia would have just advanced into the disputed territories. Stopped and said this is ours now. There would be tension and probably a casualty list you could count with your fingers, but I guarantee you there would be zero sanctions.
I'm my mind it's too late for them to get that deal again.

Irish 2.0 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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It is very easy for people to keep saying "push to the end and don't give up" when it isn't our citizens being slaughtered. As awesome as it is to see farmers stealing tanks with tractors and armor units blown to ****, the sheer numbers are in Russia's favor still. That hasn't changed.

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Seems to me, the numbers are less in Russia's favor today than it was against Afghanistan in the 80s.

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Keep in mind Russia doesn't care about it's people. They'll keep sending the lambs to slaughter. Ukraine's government actually has a conscious and doesn't want to lead their people into an endless war.

Besides the PM crap, the deal basically is what the rest of the western world was prepared to give up without sanctions to Russia. Putin furthered the invasion. If he'd stopped in Donbas, Russia wouldn't have had this massive blowback from western society.

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Russia cared even less about it's people when it was the USSR.

And you are wrong. Everybody was pissed the moment he went in (as they should be). There is never any excuse to invade a peaceful enemy.

BusterAg said:

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Agthatbuilds said:

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Two persons close to the Russia-Ukraine negotiations (including back channel talks) tell me Russia proposed (1) Zelensky remains pro forma president but Russia appoints Boiko as PM, (2) Ukraine recognizes L/DNR and Crimea, (3) No NATO. Ze told them emphatically no.

— Christo Grozev (@christogrozev) March 7, 2022

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Yeah, Russian appointed PM is a deal killer.

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Yeah, that's Russia saying they can't get to Zelensky so they want to just cut him off at the knees anyways. There's obviously a real temptation to take this deal but this deal, like many people have thought, favors the Russians hard. So much so that even with their casualties that they could effectively still say they accomplished their goals.

I don't see how Zelensky/Ukrainian leadership agree to that without making some changes. One of which is Ukraine not giving up their ability to join NATO.

rgag12 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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rgag12 said:

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3rd and 2 said:

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Just keep going until Russia implodes

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We've cut off Iran and North Korea from the world and they haven't imploded. Especially since China is supporting Russia, the collapse of Russian society isn't going to happen.

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There is a very different standard of living between NK/Iran and Russia today...

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And? Their governments still operate. Their people didn't overthrow the governments when their standards of living dropped. Frankly I don't think Russian standard of living will drop to NK or even Iran levels

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Their standard off living was never that high to begin with. NK never left the 30's. Iran was a nice place once, but ever since the mullahs took over they don't even know what they're missing.

aTmAg said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Irish 2.0 said:

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It is very easy for people to keep saying "push to the end and don't give up" when it isn't our citizens being slaughtered. As awesome as it is to see farmers stealing tanks with tractors and armor units blown to ****, the sheer numbers are in Russia's favor still. That hasn't changed.

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Seems to me, the numbers are less in Russia's favor today than it was against Afghanistan in the 80s.

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Keep in mind Russia doesn't care about it's people. They'll keep sending the lambs to slaughter. Ukraine's government actually has a conscious and doesn't want to lead their people into an endless war.

Besides the PM crap, the deal basically is what the rest of the western world was prepared to give up without sanctions to Russia. Putin furthered the invasion. If he'd stopped in Donbas, Russia wouldn't have had this massive blowback from western society.

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Russia cared even less about it's people when it was the USSR.

And you are wrong. Everybody was pissed the moment he went in (as they should be). There is never any excuse to invade a peaceful enemy.

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Noi I'm not. Go back and look at it. None of the sanctions and crap started rolling out until after he moved outside of Donbas.

Never did I say there was an excuse for it. I'm saying that the collective of western society shrugged off the idea of Donbas going into two independent (Russian backed) states. None of these sanctions, condemnations, property siezures of oligarchs, etc. started until after he moved units passed Donbas.

I don't think things are going well in Kharkiv.

An aide to Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs sends along this photo of the train station in the embattled northeast town of Kharkiv. pic.twitter.com/lnKicfpXQD

— Tim Mak (@timkmak) March 7, 2022

*BLINKEN: U.S. DOESN'T WANT RUSSIA CONFLICT TO WIDEN

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) March 7, 2022

*BLINKEN REITERATES U.S. DOESN'T WANT NO-FLY ZONE

— *Walter Bloomberg (@DeItaone) March 7, 2022

Unfortunately, the lesson is extremely clear across the historical continuum: ruthless dictators can never be trusted to fulfill their promises, they can only be held in check by military force or internal revolution. There is only one decision for Ukraine…..do you want to be a Russian state or risk tens of thousands of citizens' lives to try to avoid that? Ukraine and it's leaders made that decision weeks ago. They had pretty much already ceded Crimea…..so I guess that could be on the table if Putin comes to realize the cost of getting more.

Really only two practical/effective outcomes here…..Ukraine ends up a Russian satellite state or a member of NATO and EU. The Ukrainians have spoken and are practically getting as much support in that decision as is possible in the current circumstances.

nortex97 said:

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I don't think things are going well in Kharkiv.

An aide to Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs sends along this photo of the train station in the embattled northeast town of Kharkiv. pic.twitter.com/lnKicfpXQD

— Tim Mak (@timkmak) March 7, 2022

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Confused by your post.

Not going well for which side? I see Ukes joyriding a Russian vehicle and throngs of them waiting at a rail station. Not going well for either side, maybe?

Arm them to the absolute teeth with advanced weaponry. Ukraine doesn't have to be NATO (right now), but we can make sure that they're more prepared. This is a waiting game at this point. Agree not to join NATO now and wait for Putin to die and then change direction

I think Ukraine's response should be somewhere between "Please be serious" and "Go F Yourself"

jabberwalkie09 said:

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BusterAg said:

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Agthatbuilds said:

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Two persons close to the Russia-Ukraine negotiations (including back channel talks) tell me Russia proposed (1) Zelensky remains pro forma president but Russia appoints Boiko as PM, (2) Ukraine recognizes L/DNR and Crimea, (3) No NATO. Ze told them emphatically no.

— Christo Grozev (@christogrozev) March 7, 2022

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Yeah, Russian appointed PM is a deal killer.

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Yeah, that's Russia saying they can't get to Zelensky so they want to just cut him off at the knees anyways. There's obviously a real temptation to take this deal but this deal, like many people have thought, favors the Russians hard. So much so that even with their casualties that they could effectively still say they accomplished their goals.

I don't see how Zelensky/Ukrainian leadership agree to that without making some changes. One of which is Ukraine not giving up their ability to join NATO.

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There might be some middle ground.

1) Russia gets zero inroads into the government in Kiev. Absolutely non-negotiable.
2) Russia gets Crimea, but Ukraine and Russia need to figure out how to split the oil reserves off the coast.
3) Donetsk and Luhansk, territory occupied before the war go to Russia. Non-occupied territory votes whether or not to join the occupied territory in 1 year.
4) All of Donetsk, all of Luhansk and Crimea all become demilitarized zones, regardless of where they go.
5) US, Ukraine and Russia sign Budapest Memo 2.0, recognizing the integrity of Ukraine's new borders. Russia agrees that invasion into Ukraine is an act of war against the United States.
6) Ukraine does not join NATO.
7) US and NATO agree not to build any military facilities or store any US owned military equipment in Ukraine.

You basically cement in the status quo before the war, and agree that the U.S. will retaliate if Russia invades. It also makes it clear that US and NATO will not be installing military capabilities in Ukraine that could be used offensively against the Russians in the future.

No one will really like this deal, but it does satisfy everyone's expressed interests in this whole horrific debacle.

Look like it got too close in and they hit it with an MLRS barrage.

I see the train station one mainly. Joy riding etc. I know the Russians are throwing a ton of resources at that city (and losing a ton too) but I think they will take it shortly, as the civilians are desperate to get out.

Main issue is that it is a rail junction and will greatly solve the Russian's logistical challenges moving west if they do preserve the lines. Russians, like the Germans of the 20th century, depend tremendously on rail for logistical purposes.

Irish 2.0 said:

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Arm them to the absolute teeth with advanced weaponry. Ukraine doesn't have to be NATO (right now), but we can make sure that they're more prepared. This is a waiting game at this point. Agree not to join NATO now and wait for Putin to die and then change direction

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nothing keeps NATO from amending their charter on their end, basically making countries like Ukraine part of the security umbrella without making them official members

Blackbeard94 said:

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I think Ukraine's response should be somewhere between "Please be serious" and "Go F Yourself"

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The reality is Ukraine needs to keep holding the Russians up as much as they can for as long as tbey can. Each day that passes the Russians pay for in soldiers, equipment, and money. The sanctions will be felt a little more each day by the Russian people

Other than civilian deaths, there's not a legit reason for Ukraine to agree to a deal which cedes territory or power to Russia at this time. The pressure is on Russia, not Ukraine. Imo, agreeing to a deal that returns to the status quo while installing a Russian leader is a no go and would not honor the death of those Ukrainians killed so far

There was a video that discussed the importance of crimea posted at the beginning ofnthis thread. Basically it is worth billions to trillions of dollars due to logistics, oil reserves and increased EEZ. Letting putting keep it after this is a W for Russia. It would be huge if Ukraine could regain control

Didn't Russia make some ridiculous demands last week? Now they are merely asking for Ukraine to not be part of NATO and to keep Crimea. That is some major concessions in only one week of time. If anything, that shows Russia knows they are losing. Why Ukraine would offer anything other than complete withdrawal at this point would be beyond me.